Gracie To Frank Carroll?

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by FSfan107, Sep 14, 2013.

  1. FSfan107

    FSfan107 Well-Known Member

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    Looks like we have some semi-official confirmation from Phil Hersh that Gracie is moving out to California to be coached by Frank Carroll. TSL (The Skating Lesson) has been hinting about this for about a week too. I thought I would start a thread where we could discuss the move. :)



    As a fan of Gracie's I'm thrilled, not just for this year but for the future. I don't think it's Olympic year panic as she has another 4 years ahead of her IMO. It might have been better had she switched a few months ago but what is done is done. I hope Frank gets Lori to give her some new programs. Whatever she can come up with has to better than the current programs Gracie has.
  2. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Port de bras!!!

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    Frank won't stand for the windmilling, I hope. ITA about Gracie's current programs. :yikes:
  3. stjeaskategym

    stjeaskategym Well-Known Member

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    Uprooting her life and moving across the country 4-5 months before the Olympics with the competitive season already underway is just going to add to the Olympic year pressure she'll already be feeling. Very odd timing.

    I could see getting new programs at this point. But an entire life change right now is quite a risk. She's barely 18 and a sudden move can't be easy on her family (whether or not any of them choose to go with her). It sounds like quite a stressful situation.
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2013
  4. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    :duh: As much as I respect Frank, I really thought that Gracie with Alexander Ouriashev was just right for Sochi.

    . . . and deep down inside I wanted Mirai to return to Frank.

    . . . but there are worse things. Frank can make good skaters, like Gracie, better.
  5. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

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    But is Ouriashev to blame for the windmilling, or Oleg Epstein?
  6. n*ice mom

    n*ice mom New Member

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    I didn't think Gracie's problem lied in her coaching, but in her choice of choreographers.
  7. peibeck

    peibeck Counting down the days 'til Skate America

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    What confuses me most about this move is that Frank is likely to retire after this year, and then what is Gracie going to do?
  8. FSfan107

    FSfan107 Well-Known Member

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    ^
    I get the feeling Frank won't be retiring if he is taking Gracie on as a student.
  9. peibeck

    peibeck Counting down the days 'til Skate America

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    Well Gracie should talk to Ashley about unexpected surprises. :p

    Frank already said he was only staying this year because of Dennis Ten and Evan Lysacek.
  10. FunnyBut

    FunnyBut Well-Known Member

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    I think Frank will definitely be good for her. She is an extraordinary athlete, and I see her working very hard toward being musical, but it really isn't there yet. Looking forward to Gold&Carroll vs Wagner&Nicks

    Is Scott Brown coming along for the ride?

    I understand why these changes happen, still I'm crushed for her coach Ouriashev. He seemed so invested in her success.
  11. just wondering

    just wondering Member

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    Excellent choice for what she needs, but the timing is rough.
    Who prompted the move? USFS or Gracie's people? Would love to have been at the table when someone floated the idea, "Hey, let's check in with Frank Carroll, you know, Michele Kwan's old coach. I bet he could really work wonders."

    Flippant comment aside this is not an easy change to implement -particularly this close to Olympics.
    Is sister Carly part of the deal (at least at some level)?
    I agree that perhaps a stronger choreographer on hand may have smoothed out many of the glaring faults, but long term (assuming Frank is looking to coach long term), Frank is her best option.
    This type of drama just adds to they Olympic season hype! Fun, fun. Ahhh, skating, never dull :)!!!!!
  12. NadineWhite

    NadineWhite Well-Known Member

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    I personally don't consider Frank Carroll a miracle worker, nor any coach for that matter, it's the SKATER that does all the hard work and has the mind of a champion. Imho it never mattered who his/her coach was/is, some skaters are just meant to be champions no matter what, though it does help to have a very influencial coach for political reasons. ;)

    And I have to say I personally give two thumbs up to those skaters that *never* left their coach, and they both ascended the ladder of success together. Some examples:

    Evgeni Plushenko and Alexei Mishin
    Brian Boitano and Linda Leaver
    Katarina Witt and Jutta Muller
    Kristi Yamaguchi and Christy Ness
    Oksana Baiul and Galina Zmievskaya
    Sarah Hughes and Robin Wagner


    Jmho.
  13. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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    I wish Gracie could have left her coach in a way that didn't cause the coach to tell Phil Hersh that he's "shocked and disappointed." No doubt he is, but wasn't there a way to do it so that he didn't feel the need to speak publicly? I'm sure it's difficult, like breaking up. But he did bring her this far and was owed more than a "I don't want to work with you anymore." As for Gracie's decision at this point in the season, she isn't going to win the Olympics this year anyway, so why not if she thinks it will help. She definitely needs help, but it's unclear whether going to Carroll will do it for her. It didn't help Mirai.
  14. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    It helped Mirai get to the Olympics and do very well there, even if the success was short-term. I'm wondering, does Gracie maybe plan NOT to continue until 2018 and just want to go to the Olympics this season, medal there, and be done with the sport (for college, I heard she wants to be an orthodontist, that's a lot of school), and if so, she thinks the only way she has a chance to medal is by running to Frank?
  15. reese

    reese Well-Known Member

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    I think Team Gracie wants to rule the world. She's not stepping away at 18.
    marmalade and (deleted member) like this.
  16. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    I think Cohen and Chan were hoping for an Olympic medal and out for their first Olympics. It doesn't always work out that way.
    mag and (deleted member) like this.
  17. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    This move baffles me. You don't change coaches as the season is just starting. Not sure what Gracie is thinking but it's going to be even more pressure on her now working with a new coach. She better be careful or she might find herself not even on the Olympic team.
  18. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Those are great examples. I too tend to value loyalty. I don't exactly fault skaters for switching coaches, due to various reasons, but it is still good to see a stable student-teacher relationship.

    Other examples:

    Tamara Moskvina and most of her pairs
    Irina Slutskaya and Zhana Gramova (sp?)
    Brian Orser and Ushi Kesler? (not sure about this one)
    Viktor Petrenko and Galina Z.
  19. PinkFeathers

    PinkFeathers Active Member

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    Wait, Frank won't stand for windmilling? Evan powers several small, Dutch communities with the power of his arms.
  20. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Sale & Pelletier switched coaches at the start of the 2002 season. It didn't hurt them.

    Leaving Frank at the start of the 2002 Olympic season hurt Michelle because she tried to do it on her own, without a coach.
  21. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

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    :lol:
  22. os168

    os168 Active Member

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    Interesting interesting.... well that just teared my hope for a Mirai and Frank Redeux at the Olympics Kiss n Cry to pieces!! :blah:
    All I am saying is nice PCS if you can try.
  23. FunnyBut

    FunnyBut Well-Known Member

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    I was wondering if some of Frank's time freed up for Gracie because a certain Olympic Gold Medalist has realized he might be too injured to make the Olympics. I dont know that Frank would stay with Gracie to the next quad , but I think that is thinking too far ahead. The career of a skater is so short and tenuous, she needs to do what she thinks is best for THIS Olympic season.
  24. gingercat

    gingercat Active Member

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    Very sad, Axleander has been incredibly good for and to Gracie.
  25. honey

    honey Member

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    I believe S/P left Gauthier well before the "start" of the season. IIRC, it was in June, not in September as is the case here. It will be interesting to see how this works for Gracie. There must have been some reason she felt she needed other coaching.
  26. Edgecase

    Edgecase New Member

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    I'm not sure what to make yet of a coaching switch for Gracie; however, I just viewed her short program at the US Classic and felt that the music choice is too frantic. So, if she is going to change short programs she should do it soon obviously. But to stay on topic, it seems Gracie has a good work ethic so if she works with Frank he might be able to settle her down and get her mentally more relaxed before competitions.
  27. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

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    Maybe she started having jump issues, losing jumps, etc. and the Team panicked?

    (Besides the obvious tons of political clout Frank C. has...)
  28. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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    Gracie's coach has done about as much for her as Frank did for Mirai. Gracie hasn't been to the Olympics yet, but is on the verge. She was a World team member who did very well there. And Mirai was a National Champion before Frank. I would say, Frank or no Frank, Gracie's chances of medaling at the Olympics are very small. But she does need a lot of help in her presentation. Maybe Frank (and Lori Nichol?) can help her with that aspect of her skating. I do think USFSA sees Gracie as their hope for the future and probably had a role in her making this switch.
  29. reese

    reese Well-Known Member

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    I think you're exactly right.
  30. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

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    We all know that she probably wont medal at olympics, but i think the switch to Carrol will improve her chances of top 5
  31. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

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    I agree. I can't see leaving a coach that has brought her this far at this time. Maybe her parents hope she will pull off a Tara and be able to retire while a teenager. I will be surprised if Frank is still coaching in 4 years, so another change. Is her sister going with her? If she needs help in presentation, she hardly needs to do something so drastic. Few will probably agree with me, but this smacks of disloyalty.
  32. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    This is a strange situation. On one side, FC might be able to refine her look and presentation on the ice which everyone seems to agree is her biggest hurdle and yes, FC's schedule might be freer now than previously imagined.

    OTOH, moving out to CA in September of an Olympic season and adapting to the ways of a new coach will be a little tough, regardless of how good that coach may be. No doubt. I'm also a little saddened by the way she left Ouriashev. It doesn't sound like a pleasant parting of ways and that could have some mental impact on the whole situation. I was surprised this was decided upon around Champs Camp.

    Only time will tell ...
  33. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    We totally need more skaters to be taught 'straight-line jumping technique' in a sport which is all about edges. :scream:

    I don't get this at all. Gold's jumps have been extremely impressive and her coach seemed very warm and supportive. I always think that the real test for any coach is being able to deal with their skater bombing. Ouriashev passed it. Carroll has failed it on a number of occasions.

    Gold lacked an overall package. She isn't balletic in the slightest but that can be worked around by giving her staccato routines. Her choroegraphy has been very underwhelming so far, however, and her programs lacked both complexity and character. It's a new choroegrapher and performance coach that she needed, not a new technical coach.

    Although, obviously there sure are things going on behind the scenes that none of us are even remotely aware of.
  34. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

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    He doesn't strike me as a mentally comforting kind of coach.........

    Check out his reaction when she bombs a few times.........
  35. FunnyBut

    FunnyBut Well-Known Member

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    Well, she is trying to be best she can be and there is so much headroom to grow on the presentation side. Athletically, she is probably one of the 2 or 3 best skaters in the World, when you consider the quality and difficulty of her jumps, spins and her powerful ice coverage. In terms of musicality, there a probably a dozen wonderbabies , much less Seniors, that are quite honestly better than her. Just from the first few JGP, I think Edmunds, Bell, Chen, Medvedeva, Proklova all interpret their music better and project more to the audience. There's so much untapped potential there, and Zueva hasn't made it happen so far. Who better than Carroll, perhaps with some help from Nichol?
  36. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Those two people would be pretty much my last choice as far as developing a skater's presentation is concerned. :p

    Nichol has produced some very impressive work for Kostner but then it's Kostner. The vast majority of her other work is dull, interchangeable, safe and generic.
  37. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Relevant excerpt from Icenetwork's Ladies SP article:
  38. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

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    How do you know this?!
  39. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

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    Surprised she's still working with Oleg Epstein since he is on the Ouriashev team?
  40. leapfrogonice

    leapfrogonice Active Member

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    For those who believe that leaving a coach after the past few seasons of success that she has is puzzling, probably do not know anything about the circumstances that prompted the change. One has to believe that there were problems or issues with the situation - especially given the fact that she left her coach, before what is becoming an announcement that she is going to a new one.

    I would think someone like Frank Carroll would not stoop to "poaching." Rather, he was approached once she had made her decision, and then he accepted. At this level, there can be all sorts of stipulations built into the relationship. Formal contracts are not uncommon with very specific items outlined, especially in terms of "who will be at the boards for certain key events" and "whether the coach would take on another direct competitor" etc.

    I am not surprised that she is still working with Oleg Epstein, since he is also partnered with Zoueva, who is Gracie's choreographer. In fact, if you watch WHO is actually doing the coaching during the moments just before Gracie skated out to perform her short program, it is Zoueva who is holding her hands and looking into her eyes and giving her final words of encouragement. Her other coach looks very awkward, trying to appear useful, grabbing her water bottle, nodding a lot, etc. but he is not Gracie's focal point as she steps out to compete.

    Los Angeles rinks will be awesome places to "stop by" in the coming months. Gotta' say it will probably help raise everyone's game to have all that heat and cat fur flying. Ashley. Gracie. Mirai. Courtney. Others? Agnes and Christina should do 2 day training road trips and train at Toyota or East/West just to stay "competition hazing" sharp in my opinion.