Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by haribobo, Oct 13, 2010.
But tell us how you really feel.
I think Fashionista means juniors V/M and D/W (in 2006), not nowdays.
Oh, I hate Crone's posture, it's too bad for a dancer and seems to me they didn't even try to fix it
I think it's a problem for that coaching team, since Asher Hill is also a wonderful dancer but his partner Karis Ralph also has very bad posture.
I thought that Vanessa showed tremendous improvement in her posture last year. It was very noticeable. I also know that she worked very hard to improve it.
Suggestions that they didn't even try to correct her posture are completely incorrect.
And it's sad Maybe I'm the only one, but for me good posture and clean lines are the most important in ice dancing
You're not. I agree that they're very, very important.
As it already pointed out I compared I/K with junior V/M and D/W circa 2006. And, yes, I think I/K 2010 are superior to V/M and D/W 2006.
Are you sure you're talking about I/K?
Yep, in 2006 people told the same about V/M and D/W.
I'm not trying to say that in 4 years I/K win Sochi Olys but I'm just about your statement that I/K are not competitive with any North American team. Yes, this year they are not but who knows what happens in a couple of seasons later?
This will be I/K's third season together. Not second. Though the idea of a "junior team moving to seniors experiencing a sophomore slump" was funny.
The point I was making is that if I&K don't make the GPF, they would still be right on the same track as V&M and D&W-4th places in their first GP's. A possible 3rd or second if some more highly ranked team messes up a segment of the competition.
No tragedy. They would still be well on their way to Sochi.
Both teams had their senior debut at Skate Canada 2006
It looks like F&S had some kind of a problem in the OD. F&S should have finished second, but they faltered. Ice is slippery. And D&W fell in the CD (Golden Waltz).
V&M's second GP was TEB, where F&S beat them handily.
It appears V&M had a problem in the OD here. The CD was the Westminster Waltz.
D&W's second outing at NHK-no problems, just a harder field. The CD was the Rhumba.
Neither made the GPF.
Dorispulaski, thank you for bringing up the statistics.
From my very quick estimation, the only way for I/K to make GPF is to beat Capellini/ Lanotte in Japan- and it is highly unlikely in their first Senior outing ( or to defeat both Kerrs and Bobrova/ Soloviev in Russia). Their GP fields are pretty strong in both events. No reason to set unrealistic expectations- their season will be a success if they are top 6 in Europe, top 8 at Worlds ( and even that's hard to do).
I agree. While still a bit of an issue, I noticed tremendous improvement in Vanessa's posture and skating skills last season.
For the poll, I picked Davis/White, Pechalat/Bourzat, Kerrs, Cappellini/Lanotte, Faiella/Scalia and Ilinykh/Katsalapov. However, with Tessa and Scott out of Skate Canada, this is a huge opening for Crone/Poirier, and I think they could sneak into the GPF again.
BTW, this is the result of the way seeded skaters are assigned to the GP events. At every event, there will be one team from places 1, 2 or 3 at Worlds, and one team from 4, 5, 6 at Worlds, provided they are healthy and have not retired. Plus teams placing 7 to 12 at Worlds (another 6 teams) each get 2 events, and are distributed more or less evenly around the 6 events. Consequently, a team who was not at worlds (like I&K) will always be competing with 2 teams that are in the top 6 at worlds, and likely 2 more teams who placed 7th to 12th. Medalling in your debut is thus quite difficult unless a seeded team screws up majorly or withdraws or retires. Debutting right after an Olympics is the best bet, because there are generally the most retirements then. And the most teams taking a year/GP season off, in some cases.
I'm not sure why you think this, but when I saw them live at the Jr GPF last year they were not slow. From what I remember, they were the fastest team there. More than that - I dont remember them slowing down that much on the elements - they seemed to sustain their speed throughout the dance. They made some mistakes, which is why they didnt win. But they were not slow.
I last saw B/S live at the NHK Cup when their FD was R/J. I/K were much faster than B/S [who I would say were slow then - I'm not sure about now].
I think they have a good chance to do at least as well as V/M and D/W in their debut season. And I think that last open spot for the final will come down to a battle between B/S, I/K and C/P. I'm hoping I/K can get the silver at NHK, but I dont know. From what I saw last year, they were already better than C/L, who really do not look that good when you see them live. If the contest is fair [ie judged on the skating, they should have a chance to beat them.
That's fair, I think.
However, C/L have a kickass SD (beating P&B in that phase of Nebelhorn with a score of 59.86). And I/K didn't,particularly (IMO), unless it's changed a lot from the Russian test this summer. Likewise, there's the question of what levels they are going to get on the 2 GW segments. So the question is, how far ahead of I/K will C/L be after the SD, and can I/K catch up in the FD? C/L's FD did not impress (4th place in that segment, with 83.42), and they actually finished behind the Shibs (2nd in the FD, 86.10) in that segment of the competition. So it will be interesting, I think.
I do wonder why the Russian Fed didn't have I&K appear at Nebelhorn or Finlandia, to get their senior debut earlier.
I guess Dragonlady just sees in I/K a potential threat to her favorites.
When it comes to the Russian teams, I'm just not ready to uber for I/K yet. I've liked Bobrova/Soloviev for the last few years and I want them to have their time. I sure liked what I saw of their programs for this year. Glad to see some improvement, especially in their speed.
No I don't. I quite like this team, but I think that people are setting expectations for them WAY too high this year. Last year they benefitted from a generally weak field in Juniors and from some of the more experienced teams having major screw ups.
Even the Russian federation is downplaying expectations for I&K this season, saying Plaatov's teams are suffering from insufficient ice time and their training situation needs to be improved. There is some problem with their home rink in terms of the availability of ice-time and all of Plaatov's teams have been reduced to 10 hours per week on the ice.
As to my comment that they are slow, I agree they were not slow last year, but the video I've seen of their programs this season were not impressive and they were slow. I didn't think they are well served by their material this season, nor have I seen they skate it full out.
Both D&W and V&M benefitted from being the first teams to come up through Juniors having only ever skated under CoP. It gave them a huge leg up on the teams who started under 6.0 and changed over to CoP mid-career. D&W and V&M arrived in seniors with level 4 elements while the older teams struggled to achieve the highest levels. Even in their first senior season, they were outscoring the top teams technically but lacked the speed, flow and ice-coverage of the more mature teams.
I&K arrive in seniors with no such advantage. All of the current teams have been competing under CoP for years. Not only that but D&W and V&M have both indicated that they're sticking around, perhaps to Socchi. These are the two most technically proficient teams in the history of the sport.
I'm not saying that I&K have no hope of winning gold in Socchi, I'm just saying that it won't be a walk in the park, politics or no politics.
I/K's coach is Zhulin, not Platov
Some of your statements make me think I live in a parallel world.
You mean Zhulin?
This is not the Russian federation who is downplaying expectations but personally Tarasova who's doing it. I wouldn't believe everything Tarasova says. She's very controversial figure in Russian figure skating world and can be very biased. If you read her interview with her guesses about Zhulin's group training conditions then may be you should listen to another side of this story - Zhulin himself? His fresh interview is posted and translated in Russian news thread. BTW says Zhulin has no problems with ice availability.
When I saw the first D/W's FD skate last August I thought they looked like junior team. Their footwork was dreadful. The dance itself looked generic and overall But we saw how they progressed during the season and won olympic silver. So I wouldn't jump to any conclusions on any team based on the first skate in the season.
But who says it would be a walk in the park?
I mean it's obvious so maybe there's no use to point it out in every thread related to them?
What annoys me in your posts is that you're stating things that can be qualified as a total crap (like I/K are slow and they benefited form last year's weak junior field). That make you look biased.
What annoys me is that people are exaggeratedly hyping Elena & Nikita. They're young, this is going to be their first senior year and there are still four years left until the 2014 Olympics. Anything can happen. Let's see how things turn out until then.
I'm reading a LOT of posts which said they were going to win Olympic Gold in Socchi starting the moment they won Jr. Worlds. When people said that Virtue & Moir were going to win gold in Vancouver the year they won Jr. Worlds, I thought people were out of their minds. They would be too young.
Sorry I screwed up Zhulin and Plaatov. I knew it was one of those two, but I'm not completely up to date on the coaches of every ice-dance team in the World. I knew it was a Russian World Champion but was unsure as to which one.
I have even less hope for I&K knowing they're coached by Zhulin, considering what he did for/to the French team last year with their perfectly awful "Requium for a Dream" program.
Zhulin didn't make this program. P/B had their own choreographers, Zhulin only coached them. This season he choreographed their program (Charlie Chaplin FD) for the first time. Zhulin made programs only for I/K (with Vlasova's help) last season, not for P/B
... and I/K had great programs last year, certainly made an impact.
They were not ready to show their programs in August- Zhulin says it himself, and it was pretty obvious. So lack of speed in "Don Quixote" is not indicative of their ability to skate fast.
It seems that I/K will go the way of Michelle/ Yu-Na - attracting strongest polarized emotions. For myself, I try not live in a fantasy world, but cannot help being their uber- I even liked that half- cooked Quixote, for what it might become. Only one more week to wait!
Actually, they only had all level 4's in the FD. Still, a great accomplishment.
Like even if you don't like Pechalat and Bourzat they are top 6 in the world. Right now some consider that an impossibility for I/K because of Zhulin but you know P&B prove otherwise.
Ubers who persist in making claims of greatness for a team which has yet to skate in seniors are going to get a rough ride. It is not the skaters who "polarize" the fans, rather it is the ubers with their over-inflated expectations and delusions of greatness before their team/skater has won anything, that push other posters into backlash mode.
I remember the CohenHeads (tm) telling everyone that "Sasha had it all" when anyone with eyes could see she didn't, that that Sasha was going to be the greatest skater ever, easily eclipsing anything that Kwan did, and yet, at the end of her career, no Olympic Gold Medal, no World Championship, and only one US Championship, won when Kwan was injured and not there.
Even when the skater lives up to the hype and achieves expectations, ubers get a rough ride and the Yu-NaBots and Maoists who post here are learning.
And the list of former Junior World Champions who have had no success to speak of in seniors, is a long, long list indeed.
I really hope that I&K are at least somewhat insulated from all this great next ones hype. That's a heck of a lot of pressure to put on them way too early in their career.
Just because I thought the program was dreadful, doesn't mean I don't like P&B. If anything, the opposite is true. I like the team even though the program was awful.
It is also to be noted that while they finished 4th at Worlds this past season, they did so by dropping the Requiem for a Dream program after the Olympics and reverting to their circus program from the year before where they finished 5th at Worlds.
Just because I'm a huge fan of any given team/skater does not necessarily mean I love everything they do.
Sure. But being excited about their Senior debut does not automatically make one delusional. People react to big talent- Sasha had it, so do I/K. Nobody knows if they are going to make it, but it's a fun thing to look forward to. Of course life is littered with Great Hopes gone bad, we can only wish them to stay healthy and not to burn out.
Dragonlady, could you please name anyone who posted in this particular thread that I/K are gonna be champions in Sochi? I can't find it, help me.