Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Vash01, Jan 30, 2013.
Julia is better than a lot of people give her credit for.
There's a reason why she made the final group at several Worlds and in Salt Lake. Her jumps were huge, her spins solid and her speed and power excellent. I remember her practicing difficult jump combinations like 3S+3Lo with ease but she never seemed to get them into her programs.
Her countrywoman Krisztina was an exceptional talent too -- the whole package.
I wonder if they had better training conditions if they could've made it to the top.
I agree with most of this but have to say a word about Czakó, one of my favorite OES. I don't think that she had "the whole package". Maybe if she'd had some ballet/dance training, but I don't think that she did. I did appreciate her artistry, though, under-developed as it was. Her Addams Family LP at the '97 Euros is my favorite program of hers.
I thought that Kostner and Sebestyen should have been 1-2 in the SP in Dortmund, because Arakawa, whom I love to death, and Ando under-rotated their 3/3 combos, Cohen flutzed and her jumps weren't nearly the quality of anyone in the top six, and Kwan traveled all over the place in at least one of the spins and was generally meh (and that was before the casino ad guy jumped on the ice). I would have had Kwan ahead of her in the FS, but she would have had enough ordinal points from the SP -- I would have had Kwan 6th -- to catch Sebestyen for the bronze medal.
The Italian women, who were involved with skating in Italy, who sat in our section and I shared our mutual disgust at the outcome.
Punsalan & Swallow
Roca & Sur
Lang & Tchernyschev
Gregory & Petukhov
Lang/Tchernyshev and Gregory/Petukov just didn't cut it because the female partners weren't up to scratch.
Interesting! I didn't realise that. If only she was better at maintaining focus during competition.
I couldn't agree more!
Wachsman and Waggoner
I re-watched the SP from the 2011 Canadians today and it turns out I was mistaken about what I thought. He didn't even attempt a 3A in the SP, but he landed a clean one in the LP. I'm talking about Shawn Sawyer, btw - noticed it didn't say his name in my quote.
Abt and Savoie were the first to come to mind.
Lucinda Ruh. She was born in the wrong era. Those gorgeous spins alone deserved a medal!
According to the protocols, he did go for the 3A in the short.
I thought he did a 3-3, 3Z, and 2A, but I was quite sleepy while I was watching it..
Even today they wouldnt get nearly the credit in the grand scheme of the points system they should, or nearly enough for her to medal. For me if she could just put on a jumping display to the level of her 99 Worlds (clean triple toe and sal in short, 4 clean triple toe and sals in long, plus a barely two footed triple loop) her spins should give her a medal.
Julia would have been great with better conditions, but would she have been a world medalist? Maybe. She had European votes and huge jumps, but she also had that grandma haircut and phoned-in Tarasova choreography.
Julia Sebestyen 2002 Olympics FS
In her later years she didn't show much improvement in the choreographic impression, but in 2010 I personally enjoyed watching her as a beautiful woman skater.
Julia Sebestyen 2010 Europeans 2010 FS
Why is it that a skater is required to have ballet training in order to be considered the total package? While she was extremely rough around the edges earlier in her career, Czako's turnaround in the 96/97 season was quite remarkable. Her programs that season were an absolutely perfect fit for her; while her Addams Family program has always gotten much-deserved praise, her Masquerade Waltz SP was just as dynamic, IMO. Beyond the unique choreography, she was fast and powerful in her stroking, as well as in her spins and spirals, and her jumps in Lausanne were out of this world. A 3t-3t and huge 3z out of footwork placed her 5th- far too low. Regardless, these programs, along with her Nutrocker SP from 97/98 more than proved that she was well-rounded.
What exactly happened to her following 98 Euros? Had she been able to continue, I think she certainly could have medaled at Worlds in 1998 or 1999, as she was just hitting her peak when she disappeared. She had gone to the Olympics at such a young age- 13 in 1992- that it's hard to believe she was only 19 in 1998. While she competed in a couple of B competitions a few years later, I don't think it is fair to judge those programs or performances. I think they had potential, and could have been great if performed throughout a season. Krisztina herself posted videos of these skates on YouTube- her partnership with Bobrin was, though short-lived, pretty magical.
I strenuously agree. His jumps were so wonderful.
Andrei Griazev 2005 Worlds SP
He had one of the best 3As. I saw his LP in Calgary at the 2006 worlds. He skated great but he was the first one to skate (after a poor SP) and he was held down big time by the judges. Not that he was going to medal there, but should have finished higher than he did. As a junior Andrei had great potential. He won the Jr. beating Evan Lysacek. It seemed like those two would be competing head to head over the years as seniors, but somehow Griazev never reached that height. I don't remember if he had injuries or nerves that kept him from reaching the podium at seniors. In 2006 I still believed that he could.
I also agree with Josee Chouinard. She has grace, talent (I watched her do all the triples as well as axel in practice) and a great personality.
Loved.. loved.. loved.. her.. actually after Katerina Witt she was my next favourite skaters.. I was at the live comp that she won and she was amazing - she just popped into the air - such height.. too bad about her nerves she could have been world champ.. but I still loved watching her..
I mention only those skaters, who dont compete any longer (for others that come into my mind I still hope they will take their chance in 2013 or 2014 I dont want to curse them ). My top three in singles starting with ladies:
Josee Chouinard NERVES! At times it was almost scary to watch the way she imploded during actual performance.
Lucinda Ruh wrong judging system considering her strength, at times horrific training circumstances/surroundings & injuries. Having read her biography I wonder how her career would have developed if she respectively her parents had decided to return to Switzerland for training and if shed detected earlier how harmful her super fast spins were to her health.
In case of a poll, my first place for ladies would, however, go to Viktoria Volchkova: like Josee Chouinard nerves again. She had a great jumping technique but most times couldnt transfer it to competition (tough her body type was certainly not helpful for keeping together on the jump department under pressure). I remember her coach, Victor Kudriavtzev, mentioning in an interview how often she became sick before / during competition because of nerves. She also suffered from bad timing when she was at her peak, the Russian ladies team was really strong (Slutskaya/Butyrskaya/Sokolova), so she was usually No. 3 on the team. Later on injuries started to set in (and some really stupid ones, like infected blisters, and so on). After all a pretty bad accumulation of career hampering factors! Im actually surprized no one mentioned her yet!
Russian sweep for me as far as men are concerned:
Alexander Shubin: Wrong timing (so Russian fed didnt promote him like they did with other upcoming talented young skaters) & injuries. Like it was mentioned with Andrej Griazev he beat Evan Lysacek when he won JW in 2003 with 8 triples and a quad if I recall it right. So much potential that never realized.
Ilia Klimkin: skated the wrong time as he had to compete against Yagudin/Plushenko/Abt at their best during his own peak years, then injuries set in. Considering his strengths (spins, interesting transitions), its a pity he had to compete under the 6.0 system for the major part of his eligible career. He also had his share of bad luck not only concerning his own health in terms of injuries in 2003 he had to make a coaching change as his former coach childhood days had passed away. Certainly not an easy situation!
My top pick for men, however, is Alexander Abt: Some injuries, which definitely hampered him from exploitation of technical capabilities combined with the most awful timing Ive ever seen in skating (e.g. competing against Plushy & Yagudin at their peak during the quad era of 6.0 system). Add lack of support by own fed which also showed in judges marks on national and international level. Nerves also seemed to be a big issue just a different skater in practice and competition, not only jump wise, but also the speed was at a total different level.
One side note: I wonder how skaters having such careers deal with it. Personally I think that in the long run you actually might be better off with having been a great skater, who fans will remember for her/his performances / skating even decades later despite they didnt win the big medals, than having been a mediocre skater who won a medal randomly and you are only remembered for statistical purposes or even worse in a context like it can be seen in the least appealing medallist thread.
Sergei Dobrin (IMHO he had great potential, he's coaching now but still has all the triples and even a quad sal and toe)
Tomas Verner (he had his chances, blew them)
Elene Gedevanishvili (don't think she'll win a Worlds or Olympics medal in this life)
Why is Sergei Dobrin not competing anymore?
Injuries. If I recall it right even some hallux valgus problems. Some skaters have great talent, but just not the body that can sustain elite figure skating. : Actually Russia had many promising skaters that time but almost all of them had to quit at some point because of ongoing injury troubles - Alexander Uspenski is another one that comes to my mind.
I think it was Alexei Mishin who once referred to Abt as "a bright star born too early or too late".
She was one of the first names that came to mind, but I wasn't sure if we were counting Euro medallists in this thread or not. But if not, then definitely her. I absolutely loved her jump technique and her statuesque style. Sounds like she really suffered from nerves and bad injuries - I think her chest might have caused her problems too I also thought she often looked quite slow; nonetheless I thought her very stylish.
He also said in a recent interview that he realized at some point that he did no longer "profit" from competing professionally.
"His" generation of skaters (he named Lutai and Griazev for instance) were taught to skate with the old judging system and never were able to fully adapt to the new one and then it was too late.
So he turned to coaching and so far he's doing a really good job. He coaches at a rink somewhere in Siberia and his pupils are winning medals left and right. He seems very happy now and he still has all his jumps, it's amazing.
Definitely a tough decision IMO because there has been so much quality skating I've seen or observed throughout the years. In regards to Ice Dancing, Kerr & Kerr comes to mind, and another fabulous dance couple that I love just as much as Torvill & Dean.
Elizabeth Punsalan & Jarod Swallow at 1998 Worlds.
You're kidding, right?
THIS!! I'll always believe they deserved at least one World and one Olympic medal in their career. But politics wasn't on their side in their day.