Discussion in 'Off The Beaten Track' started by Rex, Jan 26, 2012.
Yes, this has been stated so many times I can't even remember. Thank you.
It is also the dissecting of the events, the doubting thomases that some times cause an alleged victim to recant-or not ever report an assault to begin with due to her actions leading up to the alleged rape being questioned - 'she went drinking with him', 'she barely knew him', etc.
Well put. It's quite chilling really-like going back to the '70s where the alleged victim's sexual activities prior to a rape are dragged through a courtroom as 'proof' that she deserved it, or was asking for it by being dressed provocatively, etc.
We've come a long way baby-NOT.
You seem to be saying 'don't put yourself in that situation, being alone with a stranger-otherwise you deserve it'. You also seem to be saying 'I'm better than that woman'. Or maybe I'm reading you wrong.
What I do know is that 2 years ago a little girl walking to school alone was snatched up by 2 men, taken to an abandoned house they once lived in and raped her. This horrific nightmare happened to that little girl just 3 houses down from where my parents live. She didn't 'ask' to be raped by those men just because she was walking to school alone. Nor did her parents whom I believe worked such hours that they could not walk or drive their child to school. A lot of children are in that latchkey position. It's not okay to be raped by anyone just because you dress a certain way, are intoxicated, or happen to be alone with a stranger, or are walking alone trying to get somewhere. That stranger has NO RIGHT to touch you. None. Poor judgement is no excuse to rape someone either, not EVER.
With all due respect I'd be scared to have anyone who is prejudiced or judgemental in such a way on a jury box.
ETA: I just read a bit more through the thread-so the prosecutors are not going to charge him. It is unfortunate for him if this was a false report. I agree with those who have stated that the damage probably has been done.
I'm sorry I haven't gone through the whole thread-I was just stating facts as I know them and was not aware of how many times this has been stated prior to my own posts.
^^ No one is saying don't put yourself in that situation or you deserve to be raped. Two separate things are being discussed.
1. That the woman's story falls apart for several reasons. Most obvious, the texts that were sent to Kelly after the alleged rape.
2. That women need to be safe. Bad things can happen anyway, but we need to make decisions that do not put us at risk. That is just common sense, not blame.
Anyway, it is moot. The courts have exhonorated Kelly. Now, it remains to be seen if he gets his job back. If he doesn't, maybe he should sue.
Funny how a "separate" thing was being discussed while rape in general was branded off topic in this thread.
BTW, including that "separate" thing in a thread about rape accusations does make it seem like it's about judgement and blame, and that's why many people have taken it as such.
I disagree. We can discuss rape and still discuss ways to lessen our vulnerability. Women and men never deserve to be raped. Nor should they ever be blamed for being raped. However, it behooves us to keep ourselves safe. There are things we can do to lessen our vulnerability. By discussing those things, we do not assign blame, we offer suggestions for limiting putting yourself in an unsafe position. As I said, bad things can happen regardless of the precautions we take. But we should still take them.
That said, I think this discussion would have been different if this woman seemed more credible. I hate to doubt the victim. But her actions, especially after the alleged rape, seemed very questionable. Clearly the courts agree with that. As much as women can be raped, women can also lie. We may never know exactly what happened here. But, it seems that, in this case the victim is Kelly.
Crusin, I get that you're not trying to assign blame TO women who, in your view, "don't take care of themselves," but it still takes blame away from the actual attackers.
In general, I'd agree, but considering even in here people were immediately suspicious, I wonder if his reputation really is THAT damaged-- in this case, anyways. An untrue rape accusation is a very damaging thing.
Andora, it is what I've been saying. You just can't seem to get it through your little head. Stop leaving nasty, ignorant rep messages. I don't care if you agree with me. I don't care if you don't like me. But, behave like an adult. Stop telling me what I really mean. Put me back on ignore.
So, let me ask you. When I respond to your comments am I asking for your ugly, obnoxious comments? Or is that totally your responsibility? You like to hide behind the rep option. You twist opinions to serve your own warped interpretation. You have no interest in what I actually mean, you simply like to attack me for everything I say.
Fixed. (Sorry.) This was a false report, clearly now. And I look forward to this woman's name and other dirty laundry (including, perhaps, that she never really did get pregnant) being released. Kelly had to endure some dirt digging, and you know what, he came up very clean. Her turn.
Too bad she won't be charged with a false report, though, but at least her reputation can be tarnished as retribution to the damage she caused Kelly and - importantly - people who truly have been sexually assaulted and need their claims to be trusted.
What's the over/under that buzzard Gloria Allred be calling a press conference by week's end to announce she's representing "this brave victim standing beside me"? And just in time ... the bones from Allred's last meal, er "case," are probably picked white clean, by now.
I agree. And your wish is the NY Post's command (with photo):
That was the clincher for me personally. You can take someone back to your office for some shady reason and still be raped, I have no doubts about that. But to continue sexting him after even a date rape? Hellooo, reasonable doubt.
I'm glad Kelly isn't being prosecuted, but the damage remains. There will always be those who actually think that he did it.
Um thanks I guess. English is not my first language but I do the best I can. No one is perfect.
If he can prove his reputation has been damaged by a false report from this alleged 'victim' I hope he can sue that woman for damages.
I am glad that Kelly has been cleared. I hope that this does not continue to damage his life. I do hope that he sues her or that there are some serious consequences for this woman. Not just because of the harm she has caused for an innocent man, but because she has contributed to the problem of women not being believed when they report rape.
Interesting that they did not release her name, initially. Now that Kelly has been cleared, I guess it's fair game. Maybe that is her consequence, her name becoming public.
In my state, names of sexual assault victims are not released. Since there was no assault, the record can be opened. Guess she didn't think about that part when she filed.
Greg will be back on the air tomorrow. They say he'll thank the viewers for their support as part of the normal broadcast:
I thought of this thread when I saw this:
I hope not. A lot of legitimate rape cases aren't prosecuted because the D.A. doesn't think he or she can obtain a conviction. The victims didn't lie about their attacks but they were under the influence of drugs/alcohol and their memories are hazy or they didn't report the rape right away so there isn't any physical evidence. I don't want those women to not report their rapes for fear of the rapist suing them. Do you?
P.S. I'm not saying this is what happened in Kelly's case.
But if it can be proven that she filed a false report, shouldn't he sue her? I understand you don't want women afraid to come forward but you can't allow women free range to report false rapes just because they have regret or got caught in an affair. What message is that sending? Sometimes people are so worried about protecting future rape victims that they forget there are other victims (wrong accused), too.
I don't know if he can sue her.
It's important to note out that false rape accusations are rare in comparison to the the number of actual rapes that are never reported. Interestingly, they do get a lot of press and IMO that press tends to trivialize the occurrence and seriousness of rape.
It is very stupid to advance a false rape charge because it usually doesn't work.
Is she being charged?
No, that would be horrible. But, what you are saying and what BigB08822 says, below, are both valid. If someone is victimized, there should be consequences. And while I would not want a situation where future rape victims are afraid to come forward because a DA feels there is not enough to prosecute, is it fair for this woman to get away with what she has done? I think that she has caused damage to future rape victims. By lying, she effects the credibility of women who are actually raped. This is such an ugly situation.
Yeah, there should be consequences, but why is it always: he should sue her! The legal system is good for some things but it's not the cure for everything.
Anyway, the story linked above is very clear that she won't be charged because she's sticking to her story that she was too drunk to give consent. Note that she isn't saying that Kelly violently raped her, but that he took advantage of her not being in full control of her faculties (one of the scenarios we discussed here).
There is no way that can ever be disproven so there is no way she'll be prosecuted for filing a false police report. Particularly as one of the interviewed police officers said something along the lines of "she thinks she's telling the truth". As in, they don't think she's lying on purpose for malicious motives but telling her version of events, which may or may not match what other people would say happened if they had been there, but it's her reality that she firmly believes in.
This is one reason why I said it's dumb to have sex with someone you don't know very well if one or more of you have been drinking. Maybe at the time she was a full participant or maybe she wasn't and he took advantage of that. Maybe he was too drunk to realize she wasn't really into it. But, if he'd decided not to have sex with her because they were both drunk, he wouldn't be in this mess and the same with her. If she had a general rule: I don't have sex with strangers when I'm drunk, she wouldn't now be in hot water with her boyfriend and have people all over the country saying bad things about her.
Which are consequences, Brian. And they are "punishment fits the crime" consequences too. Suing would just waste the court's time and everyone's money and keep this in the news longer, which I'm pretty sure Kelly doesn't want. He can get satisfaction from the police saying there was no crime and from the fact that she now has no credibility and a tattered reputation. Why can't that be enough? I bet it is for him.
I don't think he should sue her for a lot of money or anything, but suing her is probably the only way to assure she is held responsible for her actions in a court of law. I suppose the DA could decide to prosecute her on their own if they feel she filed a false report but I doubt there is any evidence it was a false report vs. not enough evidence to prove rape. I think most of us feel it was a false report, and I am sure the police feel the same way but proving it is another thing. Anyway, since criminal charges are very unlikely, he can sue her and make sure she is held accountable. It doesn't even need to be about money. On the other hand, he did lose time at work and what if he wasn't paid? What if, being somewhat of a public figure, he had some kind of sponsorship deals? Commercials lined up? He could have lost a lot of potential income.
I am sorry but I don't think the fact that people are talking about her is consequence enough. Would she have been satisfied if he was tried and convicted and the judge said "well, you lost your job and everyone knows you are a rapist, that is punishment enough, go back to your life." Hell no. And don't even tell me one crime is worse than the other, as far as I am concerned ruining someone's life is ruining someone's life.
I still am baffled at this whole idea that she has a fuzzy memory which therefore must be rape. Despite her 3 months worth of texting him about meeting again. Did she suddenly remember that she didn't remember? I don't understand and it is clearly not true. She got caught in an affair, she may or may not be pregnant from that affair and now she is trying to play the victim to keep her boyfriend's love. If his memory is fuzzy did they rape each other? Come to think of it, I think I have been raped a few times in my life going by that description. There is a huge difference between having sex with a passed out person and having sex with a drunk person. Drunk people, drunk strangers, have sex ALL THE TIME. It isn't rape, no matter how much you regret it. She is responsible for how much she drinks and her actions, how can he ever know her level of intoxication unless she is to the point where she is passed out?
I have a hard time believing that she thinks she's telling the truth. If the texts that were exchanged between she and Kelly, after the night in question, were as "flirtatious" as they are said to be, I think she knew exactly what she was doing. If not for those texts, I could buy into her claim that she was taken advantage of. But, if that were the case, why did she pursue him afterward?
And how exactly has Kelly's life been ruined? He still has his job, he seems to still have his fans and the media has been pretty kind to him. Basically, he was inconvenienced. And had his private business spread around. Neither of those is any fun but that's far from having a ruined life and, as far as I can tell, I don't think he's even lost any money.
Without damages, there is nothing to sue for.
I don't. But I have a lot of family members whose grasp on reality is thin.
Seriously, memory is a funny thing. If she only had the most fuzzy of memories than it's very easy for her to, over time, go back and "remake" her memories. People do it all the time. Watch how someone you know well tells a story over the course of a decade or so and see how that same story changes over time.
Also think about the whole (now discredited) recovered memories movement and how people were able to plant memories into functioning adult of childhood abuse that never happened.
I can totally see her going over and over her memories of that night and gradually filling in the blanks and making them over to be something more palatable to herself. People do it all the time.
If I shoot you and you live, does that mean I get away with it? What if I shoot at you and miss? You have no idea what his life is like now so I find it very naive to assume he will just go back to normal and never face any problems after being labeled a rapist ON THE NATIONAL LEVEL. I wasn't aware you had access to his bank account, paychecks and other information about his business ventures.
What a horrible example. You do realize that as time goes on your memory gets WORSE. After years, any "filling in" you have done is almost surely false. Our memories, no matter how real they seem, are often WRONG.