'Good Day New York' Host Greg Kelly Accused of Rape

Discussion in 'Off The Beaten Track' started by Rex, Jan 26, 2012.

  1. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

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    I've often wondered what happens when both parties are drunk and can't properly say yes (or no?). Could either party later claim rape?
     
  2. cruisin

    cruisin Well-Known Member

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    Japanfan, I don't think that Karina1974 is necessarily blaming the victim. There is no type to get raped, anyone can be a victim. However, we can take precautions to lessen our vulnerability. While it certainly is possible to be raped by someone you've known for a while, I do think a woman puts herself at more at risk going somewhere private with a stranger. Especially if she's been drinking and has less control. There are just certain commonsense things that you should not do.

    As far as being drunk as equal to not giving consent, I disagree. Unless the woman actually says no or is passed out. First of all, how drunk is too drunk to give consent? Second, if that becomes a legal definition, how many ticked off women who don't get called back by a guy they had sex with, after a few drinks, might claim rape? I think it's far too inconsistent.

    My initial reaction to this case was the same as yours. Sad that once again a woman's credibility was called into question. But, after more came out (especially the texts afterward) I do not believe she is credible. Adding to the "sad" is that with each woman who makes a false claim of rape, a life is ruined and more women who are actually raped are not seen as credible.
     
  3. WindSpirit

    WindSpirit OmnipresentAdmeanistrator

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    Yes, we do, but I'm not sure how repeating it over and over relates to this particular story.
     
  4. cruisin

    cruisin Well-Known Member

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    I have kids, it can never be said enough :)
     
  5. Andora

    Andora Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. I think she indicated that if you don't follow her checklist, you're asking for trouble.

    This case aside, simply because I don't know enough to even comment on it...

    My main problem with this line of thinking is even if you say it's a precaution, someone else will say a woman put herself in harms way and thus shoulders some responsibility for her attack. That is such unbelievable bull shit. I don't go down dark alleys alone, don't travel home late unless I'm with someone, and so on and so forth. I do those things out of fear, but I shouldn't have to. The onus SHOULD be put on those who attack women in those circumstances instead of women who find themselves in tough predicaments.

    I also feel as though it's telling someone who may have been attacked and raped that their suffering isn't valid, or at least as valid as someone else who "followed all the rules." What's sad is I know people who feel that way.

    How this turns into some scorned woman argument is beyond me, but...

    Have you ever been so drunk, you can barely function? I have, and it was awful. Thank goodness I was with friends who made sure the worst thing that could happen was I fell over or said something stupid. It's a great thing for women to know their limits with alcohol, but sometimes it doesn't happen for whatever reason. I think in most situations, a man who has control of his faculties and chooses to have "consensual" sex with a woman that is more than a bit tipsy is taking advantage of her-- at the very least. If he's in the same super-inebriated boat, well... I'm not so opinionated.
     
  6. Anita18

    Anita18 Well-Known Member

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    From our discussions about it in college orientation, that'd be a situation you definitely do not want to find yourself in, because it's a huge mess. :eek:
     
  7. cruisin

    cruisin Well-Known Member

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    And I don't think she meant that.

    That's crap. How is telling a woman to be careful with regard to where she goes and who she goes with blaming her or telling her her suffering is invalid :roll eyes:.

    Fact - there are common sense things we should do to lessen our vulnerability. Fact - it sucks that we have to do that. Fact - there are bad people in the world. Fact - all of the "I should be able to do what I want and go where I want safely" doesn't change that. You don't go down dark alleys, in dangerous areas, alone, because you know it's unsafe. It is unsafe to get blind drunk and go to a private place with some guy you don't know. That doesn't mean that you would bear responsibility for being raped or attacked.
     
  8. MacMadame

    MacMadame Cat Lady-in-Training

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    I actually don't think #2 is fishy either. If she was drunk or drugged, she wouldn't remember and not remembering is a very good indication that there was no consent as she wasn't in a state to give consent.

    Well, people say stupid sh!t all the time. That doesn't mean we shouldn't teach people how to take care of themselves and minimize their risks. There are some basic safety precautions anyone can take and not all of them are so obvious that we don't have to educate people as to what they are.
     
  9. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    Being drunk and not remembering is not equal to being passed out and some people are more than able to give consent but still not remember it the next day. I know when I get drunk enough I often have very little or fuzzy memory of certain parts of the night but if you asked my friends they would say I was completely aware and didn't even appear to be very drunk. If I had sex with someone I would have been more than able to give my permission but not remember it the next day. Being drunk is not an excuse to say I don't remember THEREFORE it was rape. She has no way of knowing she was raped and she clearly didn't think so for 3 months as she continued to text and flirt with this man.
     
  10. Andora

    Andora Well-Known Member

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    I agree that the world can be a scary place and we have to take care. But every time a discussion about rape comes up, so does this argument. I think it's a slippery slope because I HAVE seen people come right out and say a woman bears some responsibility for her attack because she didn't follow every single precaution necessary. I'm glad you're not saying that, but I honestly feel every time we spout the same old, "well, you have to protect yourself" argument it continues to feed into that.
     
  11. MacMadame

    MacMadame Cat Lady-in-Training

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    Well I say if you were so drunk you couldn't remember then by definition you were too drunk to give consent. This is similar to the law that says that if a person is young enough, they can't give consent either. There has to be a certain amount of ability to think rationally and understand the implications of your behavior to be able to give consent. If it's not there, it's not there no matter how it appeared.

    That doesn't mean I'd fault someone who had sex with you if you didn't appear to be out of your mind. OTOH, if you friends were drinking too, I'm not sure I'd trust their judgement about how lucid you were. ;)
     
  12. milanessa

    milanessa engaged to dupa

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    Someone like Greg Kelly?
     
  13. cruisin

    cruisin Well-Known Member

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    Part of the problem with this is that it's hard to prove. Unless there is a breathalyzer done, how can anyone know if the person's blood alcohol level is high enough to render them incapable of consent. As you said, if your friends have been hitting the booze too, how capable are they to evaluate your state?This is a slippery slope as well.
     
  14. cruisin

    cruisin Well-Known Member

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    I think it will be shown that there is sufficient information there to prove he did not rape this woman.

    Bat, as to your response to MacMadame's point, would you suggest that no man should ever have sex with a woman who has had any alcohol? Especially one he doesn't really know? Because sometimes you can appear quite lucid, even though you've had too much. How can the man know what your tolerance is? If you seem fine, seem enthused, and say yes, what should he think/do? Of course I do think they both are pretty stupid, since this (allegedly) resulted in a pregnancy. How can anyone have unprotected sex with a stranger - female or male.
     
  15. milanessa

    milanessa engaged to dupa

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    :confused: I think you should read MacMadame's statement again, understand what she said and then read my reply.
     
  16. cruisin

    cruisin Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure that I understand how you are taking her statement.

    She said she would not fault someone for having sex with you, if you didn't appear to be out of your mind. I don't think she meant that she wouldn't fault him if he forced himself. I think she meant that, if you appear lucid and capable of making a decision, how is the guy at fault? Should a guy have you sign an affidavit that you are of sound mind and capable of consent for sex? How can a guy know how drunk a woman is, if she appears okay? I have been out and had a bit too much wine. I was fine, could certainly make decisions, but got in the car (not driving) and suddenly it hit me. What if the yes is given while still cognizant?
     
  17. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    milanessa was saying that according to what MaMadame said that she should find no fault with Greg Kelly.
     
  18. MacMadame

    MacMadame Cat Lady-in-Training

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    Who is Bat? :confused:

    I haven't read enough about this case to have an opinion about what Greg Kelly did or did not do. I was responding more to the situation of rape in general.

    I do think that just because something is illegal doesn't make it wrong. Likewise just because it's legal, that doesn't mean it's right. And this doesn't even get into the idea of whether or not something is stupid!

    So the idea that you should do a breathalyzer test and it's okay to have sex if the person blows .07 but not if they blow .12 is just silly. If someone is drunk and you have sex with them and you don't know them very well, you've done something stupid. It's stupid no matter what their blood alcohol level is and it's stupid even if nothing bad happens afterwards.

    OTOH, if they also clearly can't give consent and you have sex with them anyway, then it's not just dumb, it's wrong. And possibly illegal depending on where you live and what the circumstances are.
     
  19. MacMadame

    MacMadame Cat Lady-in-Training

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    No, milanessa was asking a question. You are inferring that's what she wants me to say but she didn't actually say that. ;)
     
  20. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    Technically....lol
     
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  21. MacMadame

    MacMadame Cat Lady-in-Training

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    Well I also think she wasn't implying it. I think she wanted to know what I thought. But she'll come along soon enough and tell us what she meant, I'm sure.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2012
  22. Civic

    Civic New Member

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    IMO, it doesn't matter what she planned to do with him when she suggested they go to her office. What matters is what happened once they were there. Women have the right to say no to sex even if they've behaved seductively with a guy earlier. Having written the above, I freely admit that I don't know what happened between them. I don't know who is lying.
     
  23. agalisgv

    agalisgv Well-Known Member

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    I think she was showing the necessary implication of your statement in this particular case. I guess you can dance around that if you want, but to me it seemed quite clear.
     
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  24. cruisin

    cruisin Well-Known Member

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    Bat is a typo, I meant to write But. :) Damn spell check! :D

    I was exaggerating there. I was trying to express how difficult it would be to actually know if someone is drunk enough to be incapable of making a decision, short of stumbling drunk or passing out.

    But, doesn't that go both ways? If you are drinking, isn't it stupid to have sex with someone you don't know? People do stupid things when they drink. The drive, an act for which they are held entirely accountable. How do we then say that the person who choses to go with a stranger and have sex is completely incapable of making a decision and is therefore not responsible (in part) for their choice? Again, if they go willingly and are not incapacitated. What if they are both drunk? Is a man responsible for his drunk actions, but a woman is not?

    I cannot stress more, that a woman should not ever be forced to have sex. But, is making a decision, to have sex with a stranger, after you've been drinking, which you may later regret, rape?
     
  25. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    I do not have enough information on this particular case to draw any conclusions one way or another.

    But for hypothetical purposes, I can use my imagination, and I can imagine plenty of reasons why a woman might invite a man she was having drinks with to her office without intending to "go all the way"

    *To chat and get to know him better (first part of a first date) in a quieter environment if the bar was too noisy to hear each other
    *To make out without progressing to full intercourse
    *To show him something in or about the office that's notable and worth bonding over -- a great view, a great piece of art, family photos on her desk, etc.
    *To pick up something she had left there and needed to go back for before heading home, without cutting short the time spent with this guy
    *To give him a copy of her resume, etc., if she thought he could help her professionally

    Some of those don't even presume that the relationship was already in "date" mode

    Again, it sounds like this situation was, but it's not necessary to read that into the mere fact that she invited him to her office

    This makes legal sense if the person who initiates the sex is sufficiently sober and the person who allows him (or her) to proceed is too drunk.

    But what if both participants are too drunk to give legally valid consent and both make poor judgment to engage in ill-advised sex? Can they be said to mutually rape each other?

    If one initiates the sex and the other merely drunkenly agrees/doesn't protest, then is the initiator guilty and the agreer not?

    If one participant is male and the other female, is the male necessarily the guilty one, even if neither can remember who started it?

    In a same-sex scenario, if both were too drunk to legally consent and both were too drunk to remember exactly what happened, is it less possible to consider rape than in a male-female scenario?
    At least pregnancy wouldn't be a consideration in that case though.
     
  26. cruisin

    cruisin Well-Known Member

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    The first two are still not smart. I don't think it's a good idea to bring someone you don't know to a private place, like an empty office building.

    The 3rd point is rather unlikely, though, I suppose possible.

    The 4th & 5th are more legitimate reasons, but still not a good idea if you don't know the guy.

    But, none of the reasons would explain why she said nothing until she got caught, or why she continued to test him asking why he hadn't called.

    Totally agree. Determining that someone is incapable of making a decision, because of alcohol consumption gets tricky. It's something that cannot be proven, after the fact. And something that is too variable - how much is too much? How drunk is too drunk? If both are drunk, who is more to blame?

    Again, not blaming a woman, here, but it's never a good idea to drink so much that you don't know what you're doing, when you're with someone you don't know (female or male). It's never a good idea to go someplace, alone, with someone you don't know, especially if you've been drinking. People make poor choices when they drink - one big one is unprotected sex.
     
  27. MacMadame

    MacMadame Cat Lady-in-Training

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    Me too. I was somewhat mystified by the comment that she had clearly brought him to her office to have sex. That wasn't in the linked article and I know the last place I'd take someone if I wanted to have sex was to my workplace.

    Then I think it's like when two kids who are too young to consent have sex. Regrettable, but no crime has been committed.

    You'd think that based on some postings. ;)

    But the thing is, something can be wrong without being illegal. If both have been drinking, but one knows the other is too drunk to know what they are doing and takes advantage of that, that is wrong. You most likely aren't going to get arrested for it, let alone convicted, but that doesn't mean it's not wrong. And, again, it doesn't matter what the amount of alcohol is or whether the other person is over some legal limit. If you are in a situation where you even suspect the other person is too drunk to know what they are doing and you have sex anyway, you need to question your moral compass.
     
  28. soxxy

    soxxy Guest

  29. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    No surprise, there!

    Can he sue her? The damage is done and she probably did file a false report. Although, I suppose all the things that make this hard to prove in her favor also make it hard to prove in his favor if he files against her. You don't want to start setting a precedent that if a woman is raped and there is a lack of evidence that she should fear being counter sued by the rapist. That would be awful but at the same time you can't go around crying rape because you got caught cheating. Slippery slope...
     
  30. Sasha'sSpins

    Sasha'sSpins Well-Known Member

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    3 months? Some times it can take a victim YEARS before they can speak of an assault, let alone report it. I do grant that taking so long to report it will make it very hard for her to seem credible. Obviously any evidence of the alleged assault likely has been compromised/long gone.