Genesis of bad technique

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by olympic, Feb 7, 2011.

  1. aliceanne

    aliceanne Well-Known Member

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    I also wonder if skaters who constantly move from coach to coach miss out on some of the natural progression in their technique.

    For example if you learn a loop jump in a group lesson you will probably learn to do it from a 3 turn entrance with your arms and free leg open because that is easiest for most people. If you move on to a private coach they might want you to start entering the jump from back crossovers which give you more speed. After you master that, they might start working on having you retract your arms and use your free leg to get more lift.

    Some coaches will start with the most difficult approach first, some coaches will use the gradual approach but may focus on the skills in a different order.

    Mastering triples would also require off ice fitness training as well. How much can you accomplish if you only spend a year or 2 with each coach?
     
  2. mmscfdcsu

    mmscfdcsu Skating Pairs with Drew

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    :) I think that the easiest entrance to the loop jump is from a mohawk. Very simple and you go into it well centered and over your skate.
     
  3. MikiAndoFan#1

    MikiAndoFan#1 Well-Known Member

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    I agree.
     
  4. Allen

    Allen Glad to be back!

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    I have to say that while I did see plenty of poor technique in Greensboro, I also saw some very good technique. In general, Tammy Gambill's students had beautiful jump technique. Even Caroline Zhang, who only worked with Gambill briefly, showed improvement in her jump technique, particularly on the flip. The lutz still had a decent mule kick in the long program.

    Vanessa Lam's technique isn't amazing, but I don't think she's one of the worst offenders.
     
  5. oleada

    oleada Well-Known Member

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    Who would you say are? Just curious :)
     
  6. Allen

    Allen Glad to be back!

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    This isn't new, but honestly, the scratchiest blades I heard in Greensboro were Denney and Barrett. It was shocking to me how noisy their blades were, but her sister, Haven, seemed to have somewhat better technique.

    I have to say, as much as I love her, Ashley Wagner's jumps looked awfully raggedy in Greensboro. We all know that Lisa Ervin is on the cuckoo bird train, but how she missed those edge calls, I don't know.
     
  7. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

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    She just chooses to ignore them.
     
  8. Allen

    Allen Glad to be back!

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    She'd have to because I saw quite a few wrong edges during the ladies event that were not called. I know that she has slow motion replay, but even to the naked eye at real speed, the edges were clearly wrong.
     
  9. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

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    Yes..Lam as well. It's a shame..it only hurts the skaters if they think their flutz is gone, only to have it called again next fall.
     
  10. acraven

    acraven Well-Known Member

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    Jenna: She [Lisa Ervin] just chooses to ignore them [incorrect take-off edges].

    Allen: She'd have to because I saw quite a few wrong edges during the ladies event that were not called. I know that she has slow motion replay, but even to the naked eye at real speed, the edges were clearly wrong.

    ---

    To be called, incorrect take-off edges must be visible at normal speed from the angle of the technical panel and/or its camera. Slow-motion replay is not used for examining take-off edges (as opposed to underrotated landings).
     
  11. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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    It also should be noted that Lisa Ervin was one of 3 people on the technical panel.
     
  12. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

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    Hm? That can't be true. In the segment NBC aired, the caller did request review for the entry edge of Sasha's lutz.

    I agree Sylvia, that Ervin was only one of three tech. panel members. Doesn't seem like anyone stepped up to the plate.
     
  13. acraven

    acraven Well-Known Member

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    Yes, they can review take-off edges, but the video is played back at normal speed, not in slow motion.
     
  14. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

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    Apparently I'm "blind" too, because even on the slow motion of Ashley's lutz at around 4:26 in this video it looks to me like her left toe has already picked in and her right foot is tilted to a slight outside edge, perhaps a flat at worst (although her body is definitely leaning to the inside). It's hard to tell with absolute certainty, but I hardly think there was an "obvious" change of edge visible in real time that you'd have to be blind not to see.

    However, I also looked very closely at her jumps in one of her GP events and it looked the same to me there, and the tech panel DID call an edge change. So it seems very debatable to me.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzQYjLCFons
    http://i53.tinypic.com/20r3ar8.png
     
  15. Mafke

    Mafke New Member

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    Figures used to be divided into classes based on presumed difficulty. At one time the skater's score was then multiplied by the difficulty factor which is how skaters could build up insurmountable leads.

    In roller skating (which still has figures as an event on its own) the figure is also divided into sections of greater or lesser importance. Turns, changes of edge and feet are the most important in that order IIRC. So a mistake made by a botched turn will hurt a skater than straying from the pattern halfway between the strike and the turn.

    One thing that would have been nice with CoP is that it would have to make clear which is more important clean turns, tracings close together, overall size and shape etc. Back in the figures era one problem facing skaters was they had no real way of knowing how judges would prioritize the different elements (and different judges were clearly looking at different things).
     
  16. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    What does this mean?
     
  17. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    ^ She makes very strange calls at Nationals. For example, in 2008, Ervin was the technical specialist. Wagner received no edge calls, while Mirai's lutz in the FS was called for an edge violation, and her triple-triple was downgraded although it looked around a quarter turn. In addition to that Caroline used to received edge violations for her flips on 2009. In 2010, in the short program, both Sasha and Mirai didn't even receive an attention mark for their lutzes.
     
  18. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

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  19. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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    No, she wasn't. Nor was she in 2010.

    2008 U.S. Nationals Championship Ladies technical panel consisted of:
    Technical Controller Charles Cyr; Technical Specialist Terry Kubicka; Assistant Technical Specialist Libby Scanlan.

    ETA:
    2009:
    Technical Controller Gale Tanger; Technical Specialist Lisa Ervin-Baudo; Assistant Technical Specialist Denise Williamson.

    2010:
    Technical Controller Wendy Enzmann; Technical Specialist Lisa-Marie Allen; Assistant Technical Specialist Troy Goldstein.

    2011:
    Technical Controller Doug Williams; Technical Specialist Lisa Ervin-Baudo; Assistant Technical Specialist Justin Dillon.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2011
  20. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

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    While I strongly disagreed with the tech panel's calls of Meissner and Flatt's triple-triples in 2007 (she was a member of that panel-- screen caps were provided at the time and I think there are some videos on Youtube also), listing examples of calls by skater's name without providing video or screen cap evidence of those particular jumps seems to just be inviting posters to judge her calls as wrong based on the reputation of the skater(s). I felt almost positive that Mirai did NOT flutz at Nationals, and thought she did lip slightly (which is what the tech panel called). I can try to get screen caps later. Wagner's lutz from this Nationals (at least in the SP, I couldn't find as clear of a view in the FS) also looks very debatable to me based on the screen cap I provided. Flatt used to (at least sometimes) flutz, but for the past season or two I haven't seen her do it, and I don't think she's gotten any edge calls on it either (correct me if I'm wrong). There have been times where it looked like she lipped to me, however, and I think that may have been called at least once or twice?

    I'll try to look at some of those jumps later.
     
  21. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    ^ Mirai received an attention call pretty much at all the comepetitions she went to the whole season on her lutz in the SP in 2009-2010. Same for Wagner.
     
  22. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

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    So what? You're exactly proving my point about judging based on reputation. Even if those calls were correct that doesn't mean they necessarily deserved similar calls at Nationals. An edge change can come down to a differnce of fraction of a second in timing, and could vary from competition to competition. I'm not an accomplished skater and don't practice these jumps hundreds of times a week, so my (single) lutzes are probably more variable than most elite skaters', but I definitely flutz sometimes and not others.

    Aside from just random variation, a skater could work on their technique so they either don't change edge at all (except perhaps in rare cases where something totally goes wrong with the timing, the same way skaters who certainly aren't "chronic" underrotators can underrotate jumps sometimes) or do so much less frequently (for example, Rachael with her lutzes and Joannie in the past, and Mirai might be another example).

    What do you think of the Wagner screen cap I posted? While it is really obvious that most of her body is leaning to the inside, so the technique might not be the best, the edge doesn't LOOK to me to be an inside. And that's taking a screen cap from a slow-mo video, not watching in real time. Maybe the people who thought they saw an "obvious" edge change in real time were looking at the direction her upper body was leaning? If you can produce a screen cap that shows her blade on a clear inside edge, then I'll gladly take a look and be open to changing my mind. I'm just trying to be objective and NOT judge based on reputation.

    http://i53.tinypic.com/20r3ar8.png

    It seems like on the boards certain things become accepted by many as unchangeable facts ("Sasha/Mirai/Ashley is a flutzer," "so-and-so is an underrotator") and sometimes it's so frustrating when posters just repeat these sayings as facts and automatically declare anyone who says anything contradictory (or doesn't give these skaters with a certain reputation for getting edge calls an edge call) MUST be wrong.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2011
  23. Squibble

    Squibble New Member

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    The first sequel, but there will be others, including:

    Numbers of Bad Technique :COP:
    Judges of Bad Technique :judge:
    Lamentations of Bad Technique :wuzrobbed
    Acts of Bad Technique :yikes:
    Revelation of Bad Technique :eek:
     
    gkelly and (deleted member) like this.
  24. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

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    OK, I changed my mind about Mirai's 3flips at this year's Nationals (just looked at both in slow-mo). :shuffle: It does look like she went ever-so-slightly back onto the inside edge before the takeoff. And I think she did the same on her lutzes. :shuffle: Both had a general outside edge curvature on the entry and therefore looked like outside edge takeoffs to me in real time, and since that's what the tech panel is going by, I can definitely see why they made the calls they did.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ulektq3x-WI
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3ODzdB4_6E

    Rachael's lutz is really off of a pronounced outside edge here, and her flip looks just fine too:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87Ib6INSEzY
     
  25. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

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    Because I just can't let go once I've gotten started on something, and love overanalyzing things :lol:

    Each image includes screen caps, my best analysis, and what I would call for edge violations/warnings in real time and based on the screen caps/slow mo. All videos are from 2011 U.S. Nationals except for Cohen's from 2010.

    1. Wagner SP lutz: http://i52.tinypic.com/2w3aqnd.png

    Real-time conclusion: "!" if it exists, no edge call if it doesn't (unclear edge)
    Slow-mo/screen cap conclusion: edge appears correct, no edge call

    2. Wagner FS lutz: http://i56.tinypic.com/kcdzix.png

    Real-time conclusion: "!" if it existed, no "e" if it doesn't (unclear edge)
    Slow-mo/screen cap conclusion: "!" if it exists, no edge call if it doesn't (Giving benefit of the doubt based on poor quality screen caps. Appears as though she may have changed edge but not confident)

    3. Nagasu SP lutz: http://i54.tinypic.com/280inmd.png

    Real-tme conclusion: no edge call, looked OK in real time due to overall outside entry curve
    Slow-mo/screen cap conclusion: "!" if it exists (unclear edge), no edge call if it doesn't

    4. Nagasu SP flip: http://i53.tinypic.com/fapvg1.png

    Real-time conclusion: appeared to be a possible slight outside edge in real time due to overall outside entry curve, would give "!" if it existed, otherwise no edge call (giving the benefit of the doubt)
    Slow-mo/screen cap conclusion: Still pretty unclear, possible "!" if it existed, otherwise no edge call.

    5. Nagasu FS lutz: http://i51.tinypic.com/w9uv84.png

    Conclusion: Unclear edge both in real time and slow-mo/screen caps. "!" if it exists, otherwise no edge call

    6. Nagasu FS flip: http://i55.tinypic.com/fdykiw.png

    Conclusion: Looks OK, no "e" or "!"

    7. Lam SP lutz: http://i54.tinypic.com/2n8czs3.png

    Conclusion: Unclear edge in real time. "!" if it exists, otherwise no edge call to give benefit of the doubt. Slow-mo appears to show a slight inside edge at takeoff. Would still only give "!" if it existed because it was short and slight. Possibly an "e" if there is no "!" available and screen caps were allowed.

    8. Czisny SP lutz and flip: http://i55.tinypic.com/1j6lfm.png

    Conclusion: Strong outside edge on lutz, slight outside edge on flip (looked pretty clear in real time as well as slow-mo/screen caps, would give an "e").

    9. Flatt SP lutz and flip: http://i54.tinypic.com/2d1s07c.png

    Conclusion: Both jumps correct

    10. Zawadzki SP lutz and Gao SP flip and lutz: http://i52.tinypic.com/66x24j.png

    Conclusion: Zawadzki lutz and Gao flip are correct. Gao lutz looked unclear in real time. Overall entry curve is outside, appears as though it may switch at the very last second but not confident enough to say for sure in real time. "!" if it exists based on real-time. Screen caps show more clearly that the edge did indeed change at the last minute and would give an "e" based on that.

    11. Cohen SP lutz (2010): http://i55.tinypic.com/2vazdbn.png

    Conclusion: Clear edge change visible in real time and in screen caps from the angle in this video. I wonder if the tech panel had access to video from this angle, because the angle shown in the segment on TV where they gave the tech panel comments was not as good. I would hope they'd have multiple angles.

    Based on this year's rules ("e" only, no "!") and real-time (which the tech panel was using), the only "e"s I would give were Czisny's flip and Cohen's lutz. Therefore, the only call I "disagreed" with based on the same limitations the tech panel has is Cohen's lutz (which could be due to the different viewing angle), and Mirai's flips based on the most recent viewing (however, my very first impression watching them in real time was that the edge was incorrect, and I felt pretty confident on the one in the SP, so I can see why the tech panel called it. I was less clear on the one in the FS the first time in real time and would have given her the benefit of the doubt there. Oh, and Ashley's 3Lutz in the FS got an "e" also. I suspect that would've been more clear with a better video. The one I watched switched camera angles a split second before she jumped and had no slow mo.

    Overall, I don't think the tech panel was on the "cuckoo train." ;)
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2011
  26. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    I thought this year's rules were that the panel is supposed to give "e" for an unclear edge as well as a clearly wrong one, and then it's up to the judges to reduce the GOE or not
     
  27. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

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    A couple more:
    Zawadzki FS flip, Lam FS lutz, Siraj SP lutz and flip: http://i52.tinypic.com/14wvadw.png

    Conclusions: "e" for Agnes' flip in real time and on screen cap (not called by tech panel), "!" for Lam's lutz and Siraj's flip if available, otherwise no edge call in real time. No edge call for Lam if "!" is not an option (edge just wasn't clear), would give "e" to Siraj if there was no "!" and screen caps could be used because it does look pretty clear to me there, but not clear enough in real time for me to give an "e."

    Gao FS lutz, Czisny FS flip: http://i54.tinypic.com/nl9cns.png

    Conclusions: "!" for Gao's lutz in real time if available, otherwise no edge call (to give benefit of doubt, again it just wasn't obvious to me in real time). Does appear to switch to a very slight inside in screen cap. "e" for Czisny's flip in real time and screen cap (not called by tech panel)
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2011
  28. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

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    Page 14 of the tech panel handbook says "Not taking off of a clean correct edge" as being the criterion for an "e." So it looks like one would have to be at least pretty sure the edge was incorrect before an "e" was called (especially since it also says below that "The technical panel will use the sign 'e' for a wrong take-off edge" and "judges will decide the severity of the error (major or minor error)," which implies that there IS an error. However, the burden of proof might be slightly lower than giving an "e" last year since there's no less severe option. "!" last year was defined in various places either as a short change of edge prior to takeoff or an "unclear edge at takeoff" so one would not have to be as sure that there was an error to give it, but a suspicion would seem to be enough.
    http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/First Aid Singles.pdf

    I guess an flat takeoff edge could be considered not a "clean" correct edge, and the judges do have a reduction for "unclear takeoff edge" so based on that some others that I didn't call could be called (any one that didn't CLEARLY appear to be on the correct edge in real time). Only a few of the skaters above had really pronounced, obviously correct takeoff edges in real time (Zawadzki, Flatt, and Siraj's lutzes and probably only Gao and Flatt's flips of the ones I looked at, but I didn't look at Lam's or Wagner's flips [yet ;)]). Calling almost every jump as an "e" when many were very unclear and possibly would look obviously correct on closer analysis would really water down the significance of an "e."

    Mirai's FS flip is one that looked unclear and possibly even outside to me in real time, but correct on the screen cap. The pronounced outside edge curvature going in is bothersome however. Zhang used to often do this and her flips often looked to be off on an outside edge to me in real time in the past, and I recall understanding and agreeing with her "!" calls on her flips that other posters were making fun of. Don't have time to look at her jumps right now. Rachael also used to (often) do the same thing with a very distorted entry curve on her flip (I definitely recall seeing it and taking note at Skate America 2009 when I was there live) but seems to have corrected it in her SP. She's the ONLY one who had no flat-looking or obviously distorted entry curvature or suspected edge changes in either real-time or slow-mo/screen caps. Just one of many things she's improved greatly and people don't give her enough credit for). I usually noticed the same distortion of the entry curve on her flip with Sasha as well. I'll try to look at Zhang's jumps and Cohen's flip later.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2011
  29. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

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  30. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    I'm pretty sure all of these skaters have pretty strong muscle memory, so I'm going to be certain that if they flutz, they're going to flutz the same amount all the time. And also it's true. Flutzers are always flutzers unless they decide to fix the edge. On another point, I don't think anyone would ever argue that Sasha didn't have an "e" worthy lutz.

    Also, I'm not going to argue about Wagner's lutz this season. She has clearly worked hard to make the edge a more clearer outside edge than it has before, but it is definitely a questionable edge.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2011