Fumie Suguri VS Sasha Cohen: Who had the better career?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by iarispiralllyof, Apr 3, 2014.

  1. kwanoverrated

    kwanoverrated Active Member

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    I agree there is a case to put Cohen above Suguri in the SP. However due to their reputation at the time Fumie would have been ahead anywhere but the U.S. Remember Sasha had never even been to a world championships. At the very least even forgetting that and just looking at the skating, a 4 person gap was asanine. I wont even get started on Fumie placing 3 spots behind Sarah in the short program.

    Rewatching Sasha's short program btw she didnt even close the footwork pattern which should have been a mandatory deduction. Yet Irina who would have EASILY won the SP anywhere but the U.S lost 3 judges to international unknown World level debutante Sasha who even had three 2nd place ordinals above Irina. Again anyone who thinks U.S location didnt majorly impact scoring in SLC, especialy in the ladies SP, is living under a rock.
     
  2. tarotx

    tarotx Well-Known Member

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    The GWG were Sasha's first international competition in almost a year and before that had only done a limited amount of senior international competitions. Fumie had already skated at worlds. She was top 10 in 2001. Reputation is always important and Sasha didn't have as much but got some and then skated great the 2002 Olympics. Even with the fall. It's not like Fumie's and Sasha's scores or their ranking were far apart at the GWG.

    Sasha's short at the 2002 Olympics was breathtaking. Even with the slight issue with the footwork pattern.
     
  3. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Michelle's quality of skating is miles ahead of Maria. It's evident. Layback, the combo spin, and even the flying spin was better executed. Her spiral was extremely better than Maria's. Sasha had a better position, but Kwan's flow, ice coverage, depth of edge, speed, and pattern were way superior. Sasha would improve on ice coverage and pattern later on. Kwan's program composition for her SP that was four years old was still world-class and better than the choreography Maria performed. Also, Kwan had the best musical interpretation of the bunch.

    I see strong arguments that Irina should have placed ahead of Kwan considering the flip issue, but not Maria. Remember that even in the SP, 6.0 took the totality of the elements and considered the program as a whole. That played a huge part in why Kwan ended up winning 5 judges. Remember that even the judges that took the error into account still placed Kwan in first (most notably, the Italian judge who gave Kwan a 5.5 on technical merit). I do think the home field helped Kwan sell the routine and skate bigger than she had all season, but the judges have never felt that compelled to give the win to the hometown skater if they did not want to. Even when they do, I think her first place placement was reasonable. Kwan also beat Slutskaya in the SP earlier that season when both made major mistakes.
     
  4. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. Cohen's short was all style and very little substance. The most magical thing was the roar of the American crowd loudly cheering on their own skater (and influencing the judges)
     
  5. asdf334

    asdf334 Active Member

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    I'm not sure I would call it easily outscoring. Judges had Suguri, Cohen, and Liashenko evenly spread between 3-5th :

    http://www.goodwillgames.com/2001_Results/finalResults/fs/_fs_women_individual_official.html
    http://www.goodwillgames.com/2001_R...fs_women_individual_official.html#_free_skate
     
  6. asdf334

    asdf334 Active Member

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    Yes, and it's because the Olympics were in the U.S. that the SP ordinals were all over the place. If the fix was in, why didn't they make it so that Hughes was much more solidly/easily in 4th?
     
  7. David21

    David21 Well-Known Member

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    I totally disagree that Kwan's skating quality was "miles ahead of Maria" or that her winning the SP in SLC was "reasonable".

    I found Kwan's Rach SP had much more impact back in 1998 at the Olympics. Other than the very easy footwork section, what especially bothered me was that, when she tried to sell the routine, she celebrated after the landing of the flip...I mean, she just got a mandatory deduction and she celebrated, WTF? :huh:
     
  8. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    It was smart strategy. She was trying to fool the judges and get the crowd worked up. It worked.

    But no. There was nothing reasonable about her winning the short. Please. I'm a Kwan fan but I'm a realistic one.

    And I didn't remember that Cohen was so close in ordinals to Liashenko at the GG. Point made. :lol:
     
  9. grassroots39

    grassroots39 Member

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    The U.S girls were definitely way overscored in the short program at the 2002 Olympics. The SP results should have been:

    1. Slutskaya
    2. Kwan
    3. Cohen or Suguri
    5. Sebeysten
    6. Butyrskaya
    7. Robinson
    8. Hughes

    More realistically factoring in reputation and what the judges were more likely to do as fenway and kwanoverrated put it though, the results with the Olympics outside Salt Lake City would have been:

    1. Slutskaya
    2. Kwan
    3. Butyrskaya
    4. Suguri
    5. Cohen
    6. Hughes
    7. Sebeysten
    8. Robinson

    Either way the U.S girls were all overmarked and overplaced to what they otherwise would have been or should have been. It is disgusting how even to this day home country advantage vastly affects results. Just look at the Sochi ladies event for proof. If I were ISU president I would threaten any judging panel who comes up with results that indicate any hint of home country bias to receive an extremely long mass suspension. If anything they would be bending over backwards to be slightly stingy to the home country. That looks alot better than the pro American, pro Japanese, pro Canadian, and pro Russian scores we have seen at home for years now.
     
  10. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Well, some federations' skaters get the benefit of doubt no matter what country they are in.
     
  11. grassroots39

    grassroots39 Member

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    Indeed but that benefit is doubled or even tripled for those powerful federations/countries when at home. We see it time and time again. If any top skater could have a prayer granted it would be to have the next Olympics or next major event to be at home, especialy if you are from one of the power countries- Russia, Japan, U.S, Canada, France. It is a huge advantage over your rivals.
     
  12. shady82

    shady82 Active Member

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    Robinson ahead of Hughes in the short? Please :lol: A clean Jennifer Robinson at the time was about on par with a clean Jenny Kirk.
     
  13. grassroots39

    grassroots39 Member

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    Yeah since Jenny Kirk was top 10 at worlds so many times (try never). If Jenny Kirk skated her best it is quite possible her short would deserve to be over Sarah's Olympic short anyway. If you think Sarah actually deserved 4th in the Olympic short, that is far funnier than someone thinking even Robinson could have been placed over her.
     
  14. Meoima

    Meoima Well-Known Member

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    Not to mention Fumie's personality, Sasha won by default. Her presence on ice was much much better.
     
  15. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    True. Jenny's Chicago program at 2004 nationals would easily deserve to beat Sarah's best short program performance.
     
  16. grassroots39

    grassroots39 Member

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    2 judges put Jenny above a clean Kwan, and another above a clean Sasha at those Nationals in the short. So yes you are right. If Sarah somehow beat that it would only be by name, not merit, and that is Sarah's best short which her Olympic short was far from.
     
  17. shady82

    shady82 Active Member

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    Jenny was a far improved skater in 2004 compared to 2002.
     
  18. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    She was. Okay, I will revise it then. I'd have put a clean gangly Kirk's Princess Diaries or Evita program over any short program that gangly Hughes did. :)
     
  19. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Maybe I am misremembering Kirk's skating, but I don't remember being particularly bowled over by it. It always seemed pretty small. Not that Hughes was the epitome of ladies figure skating, but she had great qualities with her really bad ones. However, that SLC SP was pretty bad.
     
  20. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think you are misremembering. Kirk's skating was nothing special. That said, I still greatly preferred her to Hughes. And I felt that way long before Salt Lake City.
     
  21. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    That is how I remember Sarah, and why she was so frustrating for me to watch. One minute she would do a lovely flying camel, then some awkward choreography, a lovely double axel, then some hunched stroking. She could go from positively elegant to gangly mess in under ten seconds. It was maddening.

    Her SLC placement to me is a reminder of one of the few things I don't miss about the ordinal system. She ended up in 4th not because the judges truly wanted her there, but because the rest of the numbers were all over the map from 4-8 and she ended up on top of the heap due mostly to 5th place numbers IIRC.
     
  22. frillit

    frillit Member

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    I can see how sarah ended up 4th in the SLC SP. She wasnt great but was still pretty clean and Maria had a very subpar short for her standards, and Sebeysten didnt have any name value at the time so was never going to be placed that high. The only slight mystery is Suguri's placement, and why she wasnt ahead of Sarah and Maria's relatively weak skates.
     
  23. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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  24. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    I don't know about the Jenny Kirk comparison, but the judges never had any use for JSlo. Yes, she managed to land her jumps sometimes, but her basic stroking was really weak for an elite skater. I don't thinks folks outside of Canada gebnerally saw her as having real podium potential at Worlds. IMO she belonged (as was correctly placed by the judges) in a class below Hughes.
     
  25. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    I think you have misread the numbers.

    In the one-by-one comparison, Hughes won five judges 1(6-8), 3(4-6), 5(5-6), 8 (4-6) and 9(4-6)
    Butyrskaya won only 4 judges 2(10-3), 4(5-3), 6(5-3), 7(5-4).
    (I have shown Hughes' ordinal first in both lists.)

    If it is any consolation, under Majority Ordinals the result would have been the same, because a majority of the judges had Hughes 5th or better while you needed to count the 6th place ordinals for Butyrskaya to get a majority of the panel.

    I think this SP was about as jumbled as it gets, because so many skaters were kind of clean but had flaws that different judges weighted differently and other qualities that they valued differently. I'm more baffled that 3 judges had Slutskaya in 3rd, behind Cohen.
     
  26. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Japan was not a very powerful federation back then, had no judge on the panel, and was more aligned with the minority block of judges, and the marks clearly showed it.

    The judging panel gave her:

    GER 4th
    ITA 4th
    CAN 5th
    USA 5th
    ----------
    SVK 8th
    FIN 9th
    DEN 11th
    BLR 12th
    RUS 13th

    This block judging example is absurd.

    I also think it is funny that Russia and Belarus gave Jennifer Robinson of CAN 6th and 7th respectively although Canada and the US both gave her 9th.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2014
  27. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    a-ha! Doh! Thanks for clearing that up for me.

    The Russian judges marks are hilarious. If she had her way, Robinson and Fontana would have made the final group and Suguri would have not even qualified for the penultimate group.

    I'm sure the short program result/ordinal was a big wake up call to the Russian federation that Slutskaya was not leaving with a gold medal - not on American soil.:rolleyes:
     
  28. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

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    For what it's worth, Suguri had 6th place in the SP for pretty much most of the remainder of the competition until Sarah Meier (the last skater) flipped the OBO ordinals around to push Suguri down to 7th and Sebestyen up to 6th.

    The ordinals from 5th all the way down to 11th were a mess with 5-4 splits (using OBO) all over the place
     
  29. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    More than Butyrskaya, I wondered what the heck happened to Gusmeroli's skating. Her 2000 Worlds performance was quite excellent in terms of performance, but then in SLC her performance matched the lackluster quality of her routines. Even if she had injuries and couldn't jump, she was usually entertaining and musical. However, she just wasn't there.
     
  30. Fiero425

    Fiero425 Member

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    That was a very inconsistant period for the "also-rans!" You had Gusmeroli excelling that one time, Sokololov was runner up to Kwan once at Worlds, then couldn't stay upright on her skates!