Fumie Suguri VS Sasha Cohen: Who had the better career?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by iarispiralllyof, Apr 3, 2014.

  1. leesaleesa

    leesaleesa New Member

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    Well, Sasha. They both have GPF golds, but Sasha has two world silvers to Suguri's one, and an Olympic silver. Sasha also won quite a few Grand Prix events for a couple of seasons. I don't recall Suguri winning that many grand prix events, and her 4 continent wins came at a time when the best skaters usually didn't go.

    Sasha.
  2. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Member

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    Fumie's silver also was at a post Olympic worlds, so not even a real worlds. Both Sasha's silvers came at real worlds with everyone there.
  3. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Still beat Cohen, though.
  4. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

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    I remember watching Cohen at those Worlds and she really deteriorated during her free skate. Yet Suguri only beat her marginally (albeit with a terrible program). But speaking of those Worlds, does anyone know what's become of Kimmie Meissner? Did she retire?
  5. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Meissner retired after yet another injury in fall 2008.
  6. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

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    I see, thanks for that.
  7. falling_dance

    falling_dance The Scarlet Unlettered

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    She received two Grand Prix assignments for the 2009-10 season but couldn't take them up due to injury.
  8. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I don't think Meissner retired until her injuries took her out for the 2009-2010 Olympic season. I remember watching a cute video of her working on her movement and line with a Hungarian specialist after 2008.
  9. DreamSkates

    DreamSkates New Member

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    I think National titles DO matter and Fumie is much better known and remembered for her skating career, in Japan - even today - than Sasha is for hers, in the US.
  10. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    If this is true, why do we never see Fumie in ice shows anymore? I'm pretty sure Sasha Cohen would be welcome on the SOI tour if she wanted.
  11. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    When looking at GP events, it is twisting the data ignore Cohen's 5 wins to Suguri's one, so talk instead in terms of GP medals because Suguri has more of those.

    Seguri skated in 26 GP events over 13 seasons, only won one, and was on the podium in less than half of them.
    Cohen skated in 11 senior GP events over 5 seasons, winning 5 of them and making the podium in all but 3 (those 3 all before her first trip to senior Worlds).

    You also seem to be ignoring Cohen's first Olympics. In two Olympics Cohen finished 4th and 2nd, Seguri 5th and 4th.

    I don't get how there is any argument that Suguri had as good a competitive career, just a lot longer one.
  12. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Port de bras!!!

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    It's going to be a long off-season ahead...
    AndyWarhol and (deleted member) like this.
  13. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

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    Some people could potentially argue that Suguri should've placed ahead of Cohen at both Olympics. But of course, that's ' potentially should've' rather than the reality so that probably doesn't count!
  14. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I could see the argument perhaps for SLC but neither deserved to be on the podium anyway. In Turin I see no case for Fumie finishing ahead of Sasha, and also completely agree with both their final placings. I never got the few Fumie wuzrobbed arguments for an extremely boring and sloppy looking program with only 5 triples, some with shaky landings, and when she was well behind after the short program (and compared to Irina and Sasha deservedly so as both had incredible shorts) anyway. Sasha meanwhile had a better performance in the free skate than Irina, even if both had major errors.
  15. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

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    I personally had Suguri ahead of Cohen at the 2002 Olympics but like you, I had Cohen ahead in Turin. Suguri truly had a terrible long program that year. Don't know what Lori Nichol was thinking with that one.
  16. grassroots39

    grassroots39 Member

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    Suguri didnt even deserve to beat Rochette in Turin. She was overscored if anything. With that boring ass long program that year and the amazing short programs of Slutskaya and Cohen, she would have had to skate a squeeky clean 6 triple long to even have a chance. She also would have had to hit her spin levels which she didnt do in turin, and had fixed at worlds, but too late to help her medal hopes in Turin.

    As for the 2002 Olympics Suguri landed less triples than Slutskaya, Kwan, and Cohen (all made 6, her only 5), doubled a major jump, didnt have spins to compare to Slutskaya or Cohen, her spirals didnt even come up to Slutskaya's level let alone the 3 Americans, and while some loved her Moonlight Sonata I thought it was similar to Rach. in some ways. A way better program than Rachmaninoff but for Fumie still too slow and lyrical and showing her major weaknesses in stretch, extension, posture, line. She deserved a much higher placing in the short than 7th and maybe then would have been scored better in the long, but I honestly thought her placement was right.
  17. grassroots39

    grassroots39 Member

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    Yeah she barely beat Cohen with her worst free skate ever by less than a point, while still getting upset herself for the title by almost 10 points by a 16 year old relative nobody. What a huge honor, lol!
  18. David21

    David21 Well-Known Member

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    I think this is the first time ever that I'm hearing that Suguri didn't deserve to beat Rochette in Turin.
    Suguri was undermarked in Turin and should have been closer to Arakawa in the SP.



    At least you admit that she deserved a higher placement in the SP. Btw, Kwan didn't land 6 clean triples and Cohen and Slutskaya both had at least one iffy landing.
  19. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand this thread. Is there even a doubt ?
    In term of medals and records, Sasha Cohen wins it. And in term of impact in the sport, Sasha Cohen wins it. IMO, there is no doubt, Sasha Cohen had the best career. ;)
  20. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Member

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    Sasha dumps all over Fumie, both in standard of career and standard of skater. Yeah I know her basics arent great, blah blah but given that she is better than Fumie in practically everything else, and Fumie has several glaring weaknesses in her skating much worse than Sasha's improved basics of her prime years, she is still better.

    As for quality of career Sasha has Fumie beat in Olympic results, world results, grand prix final results, grand prix results, every category you can even accurately compare them Sasha wins, and usually by a wide margin.
  21. grassroots39

    grassroots39 Member

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    Yeah she should have been closer to Arakawa in the short program, and Shizuka was way overmarked in the short program which might have made a big difference to her winning in the end, and Slutskaya and Cohen's mentality going into the LP. However Shizuka so far blew Fumie away in the LP it wouldnt matter, and there is no case for Fumie beating Irina or Sasha overall either.

    Joannie's LP was better than Fumie's easily. Should have beaten her no questions, and been 2nd in the LP in fact. Whether she would beat her overall considering the SP who knows, but her LP was clearly better than Fumie's borefest with only 5 triples and some shaky landings.


    Kwan and Slutskaya atleast landed 6 triples even if 1 or 2 were questionable in cleanliness. Same with Cohen. Fumie only attempted and landed 5 and the quality of her positions and line dont compare to Michelle or Sasha, her non jump elements dont compare to Sasha, Irina, or even Michelle either. I cant see any case for her being better than 5th in the LP there.
  22. David21

    David21 Well-Known Member

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    A case could be made that while Kwan and Cohen attempted more triples than Suguri, at least Suguri didn't splat.

    Btw, in 2002 Cohen's basic skating didn't compare to Suguri so that is another argument in favour of Suguri.
  23. kwanoverrated

    kwanoverrated Member

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    If the Olympics were not in the U.S Suguri would have won the silver behind Slutskaya. Her short program would have been 4th behind Slutskaya (1st), Butyrskaya (2nd), Kwan (3rd) and her long program moved her past Kwan and Butyrskaya's weaker long program performances for silver. Hughes would have been hammered her URs and her other issues in the LP like she usually is outside the U.S and been lucky to even medal, especialy with her weak short program.

    In Turin though Fumie was lucky to finish 4th if anything. She in no way deserved a medal there, and I have never heard anyone seriously suggest so until now.
  24. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    ^ You must not have been on the internet around Torino. There was certainly people complaining about Suguri being underscored and deserving a medal, although there were also people saying that she should not have.

    As for Suguri winning silver if the Olympics were held anywhere but the U.S., not likely. And Hughes had been consistently scoring around the same as she had in SLC. She'd been consistently scoring higher from 1999-2002 thanks to her consistency, good flow, nice skating skills, attention to presentation, and a penchant for trying 3/3s. She had issues, but so did the people who she ended up beating.

    I find Butyrskaya's SLC SP performance to be overrated by a few in the vocal minority. It helps that Hughes placed too high (even though her ordinals were all over the place), but really, she was slow, creaky, shaky, uninspired, and many of her elements were subpar by the time SLC rolled around. If she was her 1999-2000 self, then yeah she should have placed higher. But her actual SLC SP blew.
  25. kwanoverrated

    kwanoverrated Member

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    Well the grand prix final was held just a month earlier. Kwan, Slutskaya, and Butyrskaya all skated basically the exact same way. Kwan and Butyrskaya were both clean with one shaky landing like SLC, and Slutskaya perfect like SLC. Slutskaya easily won the short with all 1st place votes, while Butyrskaya beat Kwan for 2nd in the short on a 4-3 split. This indicates that the Olympics being in the U.S had a huge impact on the SLC short program standings, especialy with regards to the 3 American women vs everyone else.

    As for Suguri, that year she was regularly outscoring Cohen all season long. Easily outscored Cohen's clean short at the Goodwill Games, not held in the U.S, and would have beaten her at the worlds post Games even if Cohen had been clean. Only at the Olympics in the U.S was it different.

    Maybe there are some people who say Suguri was robbed in Turin but they are crazy. Her LP was boring, horribly choreographed, showcased her awful leg lines and extensions, her spins were weak, and she doubled a jump and had some other shaky landings. Even bad Slutskaya deserved to beat her, especialy with Irina's amazing short which should have scored even higher than it did and deservedly had her way ahead. Cohen's long program was sublime other than the 2 mistakes, and combined with her great short easily beats an unclean and mediocre program by Fumie. Fumie's short was very good and maybe should have scored a bit higher, but her long scored just right. Anyone who says Fumie was robbed is just going by skating 101 for Dummies philosophy, oh Sasha fell twice, Irina once, Fumie didnt fall in either program so Fumie silver, Irina bronze, Sasha 4th, when in fact the judges got it exactly right on.

    Hughes had gotten good scores for her LP that season, but if she wasnt even in the final flight, which she wouldnt have been if the Olympics werent in the U.S, that combined with her badly < jumps would have killed her.
  26. shady82

    shady82 New Member

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    I thought it was ridiculous that Kwan's Rachmaninoff SP was placed below Butyrskaya's subpar SP at the GPF. While I love Maria, her 2002 skating was simply not at Kwan and Slutskaya's level. I would be ok with either Slutskaya or Kwan winning the short at the GPF.

    Kwan placing ahead of Butyrskaya in the SLC SP was completely appropriate. The one element Bute did better was the solo triple. Cohen was better than Suguri in the SLC short - Fumie was a bit tentative while Sasha nailed her program.

    With that said, the lack of recognition Fumie gets on FSU for what she does well.. :lol: If Fumie brought her 2005 FCC game to Torino, I think she'd deserve the gold (though I doubt the judges will do the same).
  27. kwanoverrated

    kwanoverrated Member

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    I am not neccessarily saying Maria should have been over Michelle in the SP in SLC. I am simply giving a reference point to how different the scoring of the shorts were outside the U.S to inside. At the very least I am pretty sure Maria would have been 3rd in the short anywhere else (I think Sasha's short was probably better, and I thought Sasha's short was better than Michelle's that night too, but Maria is a former world champion), and Irina would have easily been 1st. Fumie would have been higher, and quite possibly above both Sasha and Sarah. I thought Sasha's short was actually better but Fumie had the reputation over Sasha at that point, but U.S home court more than overcame that. Fumie's beautiful short program with mostly excellent elements being placed 3 spots behind Hughes and her relatively poor short was a joke, and only in the U.S. Either way anyone who thinks the Olympics being in the U.S didnt have a huge impact on the marking of the U.S ladies and the non U.S contenders is a clueless ditz. Even though I was fine with Hughes winning the LP portion, I dont think even that would have happened outside the U.S.

    And no Kwan could not have reasonably won the SP at the grand prix final. Irina was the CLEAR winner of the SP at the grand prix final, and the judges agreed, and frankly she was the clear winner of the short in SLC too, and would have won it easily had the Olympics not been in the U.S.

    Fumie would deserve 2nd in the LP in Turin with her 2005 4CCs program and performance. Even then not sure if she would deserve 2nd overall with how well Sasha skated in the short, and how exquisite her LP was outside the 2 mistakes (and note I dont like Sasha). She would deserve to beat Irina overall probably with that performance put into Turin, but with the program she actually did any result but 4th would have been crazy. I dont agree she would have deserved to beat Shizuka. Shizuka's Turandot is a masterpiece, she skated reasonably well that night, and one she finally matured in the 2004-2006 period she is simply a much better and higher caliber overall skater than Fumie.
    Last edited: May 3, 2014
  28. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    I actually agree with this. Sasha beat Fumie because the competition was in the US. When they both skated cleanly on neutral ice earlier that season at the Goodwill Fames, Fumie beat her soundly in both programs. Hell, the short program judging in SLC was a farce. Kwan had no business winning that portion and only did so because it was home ice. That she actually gave thumbs down to the very generous judges scores was ridiculous, not to mention disrespectful. :rolleyes: I think someone had a talk with her about the bad press that gesture received because she finally stopped doing that after that competition.
  29. kwanoverrated

    kwanoverrated Member

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    Yeah Kwan giving a thumbs down to a huge gift from the judges (and lets be real, it wasnt because she was agreeing she was overmarked, lol). It shows she needed a real coach to keep her attitude in check as she looked like a fool at that moment. The two judges who gave the 5.5 and 5.6 for elements were the only one who scored her about correctly considering her triple flip and Irina's much superior technical performance to begin with which didnt even get a 5.9 for elements amazingly. She should have been kissing the judges ass for that colassal gift of the short program win in SLC, and for 7 of the 9 judges giving her 5.7-5.9 for elements.

    Anyone who understands the way skating works then, and how everyone was scored all year, would also know no way would you have placements like Sasha 3rd to Fumie's 7th, or even Michelle's 1st to Maria's 5th, anywhere but the U.S. It was so inconsistent with the scoring the entire rest of the season it was just blatant that location determined 80% of the results. Hughes in 4th was normal, but her skate was much below par to her usual short program, even considering they are never great, so again was a U.S based home cooked gift with a cherry on top and made her gold medal possible.
  30. David21

    David21 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not seeing that TBH.

    Even with the slightly shaky landing on the lutz, Bute had a decent jump combo while Kwan flutzed.
    Bute's double axel was also no worse than Kwan's IMO and same about their flying spin (a case coudld be made for Kwan because on the spin because hers was more difficult but on the axel I'd give the edge to Butyrskya).

    And the difference on the flip was that Maria had a quality issue while Kwan had a mandatory deduction.

    As for Suguri vs. Cohen...I guess a case could be made for Cohen in the SP because of her spins and spirals but the LP I definitely would have given to Suguri based on her stronger basic skating and choreography.
  31. kwanoverrated

    kwanoverrated Member

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    I agree there is a case to put Cohen above Suguri in the SP. However due to their reputation at the time Fumie would have been ahead anywhere but the U.S. Remember Sasha had never even been to a world championships. At the very least even forgetting that and just looking at the skating, a 4 person gap was asanine. I wont even get started on Fumie placing 3 spots behind Sarah in the short program.

    Rewatching Sasha's short program btw she didnt even close the footwork pattern which should have been a mandatory deduction. Yet Irina who would have EASILY won the SP anywhere but the U.S lost 3 judges to international unknown World level debutante Sasha who even had three 2nd place ordinals above Irina. Again anyone who thinks U.S location didnt majorly impact scoring in SLC, especialy in the ladies SP, is living under a rock.
  32. tarotx

    tarotx Well-Known Member

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    The GWG were Sasha's first international competition in almost a year and before that had only done a limited amount of senior international competitions. Fumie had already skated at worlds. She was top 10 in 2001. Reputation is always important and Sasha didn't have as much but got some and then skated great the 2002 Olympics. Even with the fall. It's not like Fumie's and Sasha's scores or their ranking were far apart at the GWG.

    Sasha's short at the 2002 Olympics was breathtaking. Even with the slight issue with the footwork pattern.
  33. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Michelle's quality of skating is miles ahead of Maria. It's evident. Layback, the combo spin, and even the flying spin was better executed. Her spiral was extremely better than Maria's. Sasha had a better position, but Kwan's flow, ice coverage, depth of edge, speed, and pattern were way superior. Sasha would improve on ice coverage and pattern later on. Kwan's program composition for her SP that was four years old was still world-class and better than the choreography Maria performed. Also, Kwan had the best musical interpretation of the bunch.

    I see strong arguments that Irina should have placed ahead of Kwan considering the flip issue, but not Maria. Remember that even in the SP, 6.0 took the totality of the elements and considered the program as a whole. That played a huge part in why Kwan ended up winning 5 judges. Remember that even the judges that took the error into account still placed Kwan in first (most notably, the Italian judge who gave Kwan a 5.5 on technical merit). I do think the home field helped Kwan sell the routine and skate bigger than she had all season, but the judges have never felt that compelled to give the win to the hometown skater if they did not want to. Even when they do, I think her first place placement was reasonable. Kwan also beat Slutskaya in the SP earlier that season when both made major mistakes.
  34. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. Cohen's short was all style and very little substance. The most magical thing was the roar of the American crowd loudly cheering on their own skater (and influencing the judges)
  35. asdf334

    asdf334 New Member

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    I'm not sure I would call it easily outscoring. Judges had Suguri, Cohen, and Liashenko evenly spread between 3-5th :

    http://www.goodwillgames.com/2001_Results/finalResults/fs/_fs_women_individual_official.html
    http://www.goodwillgames.com/2001_R...fs_women_individual_official.html#_free_skate
  36. asdf334

    asdf334 New Member

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    Yes, and it's because the Olympics were in the U.S. that the SP ordinals were all over the place. If the fix was in, why didn't they make it so that Hughes was much more solidly/easily in 4th?
  37. David21

    David21 Well-Known Member

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    I totally disagree that Kwan's skating quality was "miles ahead of Maria" or that her winning the SP in SLC was "reasonable".

    I found Kwan's Rach SP had much more impact back in 1998 at the Olympics. Other than the very easy footwork section, what especially bothered me was that, when she tried to sell the routine, she celebrated after the landing of the flip...I mean, she just got a mandatory deduction and she celebrated, WTF? :huh:
  38. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    It was smart strategy. She was trying to fool the judges and get the crowd worked up. It worked.

    But no. There was nothing reasonable about her winning the short. Please. I'm a Kwan fan but I'm a realistic one.

    And I didn't remember that Cohen was so close in ordinals to Liashenko at the GG. Point made. :lol:
  39. grassroots39

    grassroots39 Member

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    The U.S girls were definitely way overscored in the short program at the 2002 Olympics. The SP results should have been:

    1. Slutskaya
    2. Kwan
    3. Cohen or Suguri
    5. Sebeysten
    6. Butyrskaya
    7. Robinson
    8. Hughes

    More realistically factoring in reputation and what the judges were more likely to do as fenway and kwanoverrated put it though, the results with the Olympics outside Salt Lake City would have been:

    1. Slutskaya
    2. Kwan
    3. Butyrskaya
    4. Suguri
    5. Cohen
    6. Hughes
    7. Sebeysten
    8. Robinson

    Either way the U.S girls were all overmarked and overplaced to what they otherwise would have been or should have been. It is disgusting how even to this day home country advantage vastly affects results. Just look at the Sochi ladies event for proof. If I were ISU president I would threaten any judging panel who comes up with results that indicate any hint of home country bias to receive an extremely long mass suspension. If anything they would be bending over backwards to be slightly stingy to the home country. That looks alot better than the pro American, pro Japanese, pro Canadian, and pro Russian scores we have seen at home for years now.
  40. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Well, some federations' skaters get the benefit of doubt no matter what country they are in.