Fumie Suguri VS Sasha Cohen: Who had the better career?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by iarispiralllyof, Apr 3, 2014.

  1. poirierpaul

    poirierpaul Member

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    You didnt ask me but I think she would have. She always beat Shizuka before the 2004 Worlds so why not again if she skated her best. She was the recent Grand Prix Final Champion and that years Japanese National Champion so certaintly had more clout and stronger favor from the Japanese skating federation and international judges than Shizuka had. People are thinking in hindsight how the two were scored vs each other two years later in 2006, but up until that point Fumie was by far Japanese #1.
     
  2. poirierpaul

    poirierpaul Member

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    You should have said Mao (due to age rules), Irina, Shizuka. Michelle was never a real factor that year anyway, and not someone Sasha needed to worry about beating under COP outside the U.S if she skated at all decent.
     
  3. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    And that's the crux of the problem, IMO. In some ways COP would have helped Sasha since COP forgives errors in ways 6.0 did not, but conversely, COP is also a bit more unforgivable in some ways than 6.0 in terms of having to make up deficits you have by not hitting the levels/completing elements.
     
  4. poirierpaul

    poirierpaul Member

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    The field at the 2006 Worlds was so weak Sasha should have just planned 4 triples and 3 double axels (I think that was alowed then). Probably not the lutz, just do a flip, loop, salchow, toe, three double axels, pick up lots of huge GOE and monstrous PCS which a clean skate from her would get, and take the gold. With Shizuka, Irina, Mao and even Kostner, Ando, Kwan, Kim all out for various reasons she was wasting her time trying 7 triples. What was she thinking.
     
  5. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    People hadn't figured out how to maximize scoring potential by doing the least you can get away with yet.
     
  6. poirierpaul

    poirierpaul Member

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    So do you think if the event was reheld today that is what she would do? Well 3 double axels arent even allowed anymore so probably not.

    What are Sasha's more problem triples. I know the lutz is one. I think her flip and loop are two of her better ones. The salchow and toe can be a bit hit or miss. So I am not even sure what her safest layout would be. Maybe two triple flips, one in combination with a double toe, two triple loops, one in combination with a double toe, a double axel-double toe-double loop combination, a double axel, and a triple toe. Put the triple toe early on though since she often misses it when it is late.

    I think the program she tried at the 2006 Worlds was too hard for the situation and field, and knowing her inconsistencies on the triples, but as you said thinking was different then anyway.
     
  7. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I think we would have definitely seen more skaters try the double axel/triple toe loop combination in the LP, so they could get at least two double axel passes in.
     
  8. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    Such is the enigma wrapped in a riddle that was Ms Sasha Cohen. Didn't she take the SP ice at both Oly and Worlds in 06, skate to one end of the rink, land a beautiful 3z/2t skate to the other end and land a beautiful 3f, then start her LP, skate to one end of the rink and fall on a 3z/2t then skate to the other end of the rink and stumble again on the 3f? How can she do it so brilliantly one day, and totally botch it the next? :shuffle:
     
  9. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I think it was all in her head. Sasha probably felt the pressure and now with Kwan gone, who one could count on to land at least 5-6 triples and place well enough for a medal most of the time, all eyes were on Sasha. Also, maybe she needed Slute and Arakawa there to put her head back into the game as opposed to just waltzing in there thinking all she needed to do was stand up to win (she was brought up under the 6.0 mentality even if COP changed things). I think it's telling that her Worlds LP was even worse than her Olympic LP in almost all areas (especially performance).
     
  10. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    My other question always was, does anyone exactly know why Mishin ignored Fumie when she came to work with him?
     
  11. poirierpaul

    poirierpaul Member

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    On topic though how can anyone even ask this question, which of fumie or Sasha had a better career. Even if you take away Sasha's Olympic silver which is way bigger than anything else either Fumie or Sasha achieved, Sasha would probably be the winner on this topic. So add the Olympic silver and it is like asking is sky blue or red.
     
  12. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    It depends. Is it during a clear day at noon or is it as sunset?
     
  13. poirierpaul

    poirierpaul Member

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    OK whether the sky is blue or the sky is gold. With Fumie you would know the sky isnt gold. Sasha atleast made you wonder if it would be. Fumie the thought alone was a big ROTFL moment.
     
  14. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    considering that some people think a GPF gold is worth more than a World silver, I'd say that thing above our heads with the clouds in it is called "the ground". :lol:
     
  15. apatinar

    apatinar Active Member

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    LOL at this poll.. Sasha and her Olympic silver far trumps Fumie who couldn't get out of regionals the last couple of years..
     
  16. rickmercer

    rickmercer Member

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    Had Sasha only competed at the 2006 Olympics and no other competition in her life, and won the silver she did there, her career probably already would beat Fumie's solid but unremarkable career. The only way Fumie's career could be construed is better is Sasha today is viewed as a failure and wasted talent, while Fumie is viewed as a hard working overachiever who made the most of relatively so so (at the top world standard) talent and potential. Who ever thought Fumie would someday be a world medalist even, i sure never did. Sasha was supposed to dethrone Michelle Kwan soon after her 2000 debut, and win many world and olympic titles so essentialy she was a dissapointment. She had a career only twice as good as Fumie, when her talent and potential is more like twenty times as much as Fumie.
     
  17. rickmercer

    rickmercer Member

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    I do think Fumie should have seen some specialists to improve certain aspects of her skating though. She had glaring weaknesses she never fixed. Straighten your darn leg already, it is pretty bad when you have poorer extension than Irina Slutskaya, when unlike Irina the technical master you are supposed to be more an artistic skater than technical. A so called artistic skater who cant even straighten her free leg, point her toe, or do a halfway decent layback spin or spiral wont get too far in the era of Kwan or Cohen. It is amazing she achieved what she even did when you think about it.
     
  18. rickmercer

    rickmercer Member

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    I would put a GPF about on par with a world silver, not neccessarily ahead. Definitely ahead of a world bronze though.
     
  19. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    She did have beautiful edge quality though. I saw that Fumie was a medal contender after the 2001 Goodwill Games where she beat Cohen who skated similarly. Fumie had awful extension and toe point and was a bit stiff in her torso and unfortunately, that version of COP only allowed super flexible skaters to get high levels in spins. However, she did have excellent edges, a great spring to her jumps, speed, and a commitment to the choreography most skaters did not have.

    I think her edges and basic skating skills propelled her ahead of Cohen in the beginning of their rivalry. However, Sasha improved a lot by 2006 while Fumie's problems remained the same or looked even worse under COP. However, I thought Fumie had some of the more interesting routines that quad. Shame she saved her most boring LP of that quad (other than her Swan Lake LP in 2003) for Torino.
     
  20. rickmercer

    rickmercer Member

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    So with all the good points you mentioned she eventually she became a skater good enough to win more medals and maybe a world title if she hired a ballet specialist to greatly improve her flexability, extension, stretch positions, and toe point. I wonder why she didnt do that or was she unaware of the things that were holding her back. You would think sometimes being placed behind top skaters when they make huge errors and you skate cleanly (eg- 2006 olympics) would be enough of a memo. Like I said it is pretty bad when even Irina Slutskaya has better extension and spirals than you do, and you dont have anything like Irina's overall technical ability to compensate.

    Her layback at times was hideous. That leg and foot, the one she did at the 2003 worlds was just scary bad for a top skater and potential medalist. It made Maria Butyrskaya and Elena Sokolova's look beautiful.
     
  21. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    This thread is hysterical. The off-season is officially here! :lol:
     
  22. staceyliving

    staceyliving New Member

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    Is there any single category Fumie has the edge on Sasha in achievements? Not Olympic results, world results, grand prix final results, grand prix results.
     
  23. fracturedleg

    fracturedleg Member

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    Fumie has had the better career since she can look at herself in the mirror and know she was all she could be. She was a just good skater who won 3 world medals. If anything she surpassed her potential.

    Sasha could have been and done so much more. That makes her a failure in a sense.

    In terms of medals and accomplishements Sasha has had the way better career, but I look at it from a different perspective. I bet Fumie is alot happier with her career than Sasha who probably has haunting demons of "what if" the rest of her life. Fumie is probably thrilled with what she achieved and totally at peace with it, as she knows she could have done nothing more. She wasnt even that good to begin with, strictly a good second tier contender at best.
     
  24. fracturedleg

    fracturedleg Member

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    The grand prix final is a pretty big event I think. It was set up to bring a real season to skating, and not just a bunch of nothing and a worlds one year. The grand prix final is the culmination of that long fall season, which has been a big part of expanding the sport. So based on that alone it has to be pretty big.
     
  25. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Although, it seems like Sasha has been able to move on and take her life in a different direction whereas Fumie is still competing hoping to qualify for Nationals (although Sasha did try to make that come back in 2010). I've defended Fumie on many occasions on that front because I hate it when people try to dictate how other people should live their lives even though they have no real investment in it, but it seems Fumie still has some reason that is driving her to continue on. Maybe it's a love of competition, and she's lucky enough to be sponsored to continue competing.
     
  26. fracturedleg

    fracturedleg Member

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    Good points. I presume Fumie's skating today has nothing to do with real competitive goals though, never mind chasing past dreams unfulfilled- Olympic medal, world title, both which she just missed in her career. If she is still skating for serious competitive goals beyond maybe the challenge of just trying to reach Nationals or still do certain triples at her age, or heaven forbid is even fantasizing over things like the elusive Olympic medal and world title, then I take back all I said and hope she sees a shrink ASAP. The very idea of that is so far fetched though I dont even consider it, and assume she is just skating for the love of skating at this point.
     
  27. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I wonder how true is it that Fumie has been blacklisted from touring in Japan by Shizuka.
     
  28. fracturedleg

    fracturedleg Member

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    Ouch. That would be incredibly cruel of Shizuka to do. I hope that isnt a true story. I know the two of them are not fond of each other, but I always thought Shizuka was a good person and wouldnt do something like that.

    It must burn Fumie though that Shizuka became the much stronger skater, despite that Fumie was the stronger skater about 90% of their career. Shizuka simply reached a level in the end though far beyond what Fumie ever did. I wonder if that is why they dont get along.
     
  29. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    I heard as far back as 2001 that many skaters on the Japanese national team didn't get along with Fumie because she acted very divalike and always had an obnoxious entourage. It's funny how on online forums it's become all about Shizuka when Yoshie and Yukari and Yukina were other names that I heard thrown around as not liking Fumie. I guess the Olympic champ gets all the glory...and blame. :lol:
     
  30. fracturedleg

    fracturedleg Member

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    Hmm I never heard that about Fumie until now. Although she does strike me as very driven, but perhaps not a realist in assessing herself, either as a skater or beyond. If she does consider herself this bad ass star, then she probably does have some delusionals of self grandeur about herself.