Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by iarispiralllyof, Apr 3, 2014.
This thread is hysterical. The off-season is officially here!
Is there any single category Fumie has the edge on Sasha in achievements? Not Olympic results, world results, grand prix final results, grand prix results.
Fumie has had the better career since she can look at herself in the mirror and know she was all she could be. She was a just good skater who won 3 world medals. If anything she surpassed her potential.
Sasha could have been and done so much more. That makes her a failure in a sense.
In terms of medals and accomplishements Sasha has had the way better career, but I look at it from a different perspective. I bet Fumie is alot happier with her career than Sasha who probably has haunting demons of "what if" the rest of her life. Fumie is probably thrilled with what she achieved and totally at peace with it, as she knows she could have done nothing more. She wasnt even that good to begin with, strictly a good second tier contender at best.
The grand prix final is a pretty big event I think. It was set up to bring a real season to skating, and not just a bunch of nothing and a worlds one year. The grand prix final is the culmination of that long fall season, which has been a big part of expanding the sport. So based on that alone it has to be pretty big.
Although, it seems like Sasha has been able to move on and take her life in a different direction whereas Fumie is still competing hoping to qualify for Nationals (although Sasha did try to make that come back in 2010). I've defended Fumie on many occasions on that front because I hate it when people try to dictate how other people should live their lives even though they have no real investment in it, but it seems Fumie still has some reason that is driving her to continue on. Maybe it's a love of competition, and she's lucky enough to be sponsored to continue competing.
Good points. I presume Fumie's skating today has nothing to do with real competitive goals though, never mind chasing past dreams unfulfilled- Olympic medal, world title, both which she just missed in her career. If she is still skating for serious competitive goals beyond maybe the challenge of just trying to reach Nationals or still do certain triples at her age, or heaven forbid is even fantasizing over things like the elusive Olympic medal and world title, then I take back all I said and hope she sees a shrink ASAP. The very idea of that is so far fetched though I dont even consider it, and assume she is just skating for the love of skating at this point.
I wonder how true is it that Fumie has been blacklisted from touring in Japan by Shizuka.
Ouch. That would be incredibly cruel of Shizuka to do. I hope that isnt a true story. I know the two of them are not fond of each other, but I always thought Shizuka was a good person and wouldnt do something like that.
It must burn Fumie though that Shizuka became the much stronger skater, despite that Fumie was the stronger skater about 90% of their career. Shizuka simply reached a level in the end though far beyond what Fumie ever did. I wonder if that is why they dont get along.
I heard as far back as 2001 that many skaters on the Japanese national team didn't get along with Fumie because she acted very divalike and always had an obnoxious entourage. It's funny how on online forums it's become all about Shizuka when Yoshie and Yukari and Yukina were other names that I heard thrown around as not liking Fumie. I guess the Olympic champ gets all the glory...and blame.
Hmm I never heard that about Fumie until now. Although she does strike me as very driven, but perhaps not a realist in assessing herself, either as a skater or beyond. If she does consider herself this bad ass star, then she probably does have some delusionals of self grandeur about herself.
I sort of wonder if Fumie just had a different personality and didn't fit in with Shizuka's popular girls clique. Or maybe it wasn't really a clique and Fumie just turned people off in general (or didn't fit in with the Japanese skating girl culture). There are some people like that.
I disagree with the bolded parts, I think it's more the other way around, if fumie was satisfied with her career, she would not want to continue to skate competitively even through her body isn't capable of it anymore, and when she and her family seem unable to finance the cost of it.
I always had the impression that sasha looks satisfied and happy in all the interviews and appearances she made. Fumie on the other hand most have felt very bitter after torino, when arakawa won, she clearly considered herself a better skater heading into the competition, and I also think that she still considered herself a better skater after the competition, I think she never forgave herself for underperforming and in her mind also underachieving.
Even looking at their career now, Arakawa seems much more succesful, she often appears in various skating shows, and talk shows, works as a commentator ect. where fumie on the other hand never appears in any, don't know if it's because she isn't invited or because she declines any invitation.
Fumie has three 4CC titles from from 2000, 2002, and 2004
It's actually from 2001, 2003 & 2005.
Nikodinov won 2000
Kirk won 2002
Ota won 2004
The only main difference between Cohen and Suguri's reccords is Cohen's OSM. If not, they are almost even. Fumie gave several performances that went under the radar but overall much more clean/great skates than Cohen whom almost always would fail at one or more things. I mean, there's no way on paper she would lost the bronze in Washington to Fumie for example.
Two special performances by Suguri :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_T91XIiB7w (poor quality but couldn't find a better one) for me, clearly the second best skate of the night. Still she ends up seventh only because of her qualifying round.
Also, as a skater, I find Fumie better. Cohen has some amazing tricks and she sure catch the camera's eyes with great ease. Still, from a pure skating perspective, Cohen's skating is not very good IMO and her jumps have poor technic.
Suguri loves skating, that's why she still does ; I'd like those who do would stop to make fun out of it just because they can't do it themselves. Stop also analysing anything as if in the skater's mind. Reading some post it's like she shaves every morning thinking how to win a world title. Good for you if you can read people's mind but I can't help thinking it would be wiser to make some real profit out of it.
Fumie shaves every morning?
Is she shiz's baby daddy and that's why they fight: child support?
Your right it's from 2001, 2003 and 2005. The two performances you posted of Fumie were incredible.
Sasha flexibility and extension is amazing and it made her very memorable for the viewers, these aspects of her skating also made her stand out, and somehow her strength always seemed like it was well highlighted in her programs and how they were constructed choreographically. Now it has to be said I really appreciate things like good flexibility and extensions I think it adds soo much not only technically but also artistically. but when that is said I personally think fumie seems to listen more to the music and is somehow more connected to it, her skating is very passionate, and she has good speed.
You mentioned that some of Fumies performances went under the radar, but that's understandable given the deep field japan has had for so many years now, afterall she was only óne out of many very talented skaters at the time.
That is interesting. Well in that case Fume is wrong. By 2006 she was not the better skater of the two. The better competitor at times maybe.
Whether we think Fumie is right or wrong feeling that way, won't change how she probably felt at the time, but regardless the JSF made the right choice sending Arakawa to the Olympics, in the end Arakawa proved to be very reliable.
Hmm were they actually considering not sending her. I dont see how they could have. Asada wasnt eligible for the Games, and even Ando who was 6th at Nationals and also had not had any real results for awhile was sent.
Shizuka has always come off so mature and classy, not catty at all
And Fumie seems to have a good relationship with the American skaters like Sasha and Michelle
*My summary of two recent Trash Can threads for the obtuse.
I'd say most of the time, yes, Shizuka seems very classy and reserved. She has displayed some sassiness in the past though. During one warm-up, (2003 Skate America or Skate Canada, don't remember which one) the queen of warm-up tactics, Sasha Cohen was getting in her way and Shizuka was having none of it. That's when her nickname Divakawa was born.
In the true definition of what a skater is- edges, stroking, speed, flow, Fumie is a better skater than Sasha. Why is that so hard to understand.
In achievements Sasha's only edge is her Olympic silver.
Fumie has the huge edge of all her National titles. Where Sasha couldnt put it together at Nationals and kept falling them and placing 2nd, Fumie shone at Nationals and winning the title 4 or 5 times I believe. That more than negates Sasha's lucky Olympic silver.
Cohen would have had 4 or 5 too if she didn't have to compete against Kwan. Fumie never had a skater of that magnitude to compete against so that's hardly fair to compare them...
I also doubt Fumie was 100% clean to win every national title, as Cohen would have to be to overtake Kwan.
Yeah Sasha faced an old and past her best Kwan, but an otherwise super weak U.S field. U.S ladies were already dropping off, who were the other top skaters of that period- Jenny Kirk, Bebe Liang, an old Amber Corwin. What a joke. The slump of U.S women which exists to this day was already well underway.
Sasha wouldnt have won 4 or 5 Japanese titles. People like Asada and Ando would jump her off the ice and beat her easily. Suguri beat such people to win all those titles. Fumie always skated her best at Japanese Nationals, better than she skated anywhere else, so she could have possibly beaten an old and diminished Kwan which Sasha couldnt do not because Kwan was so great by then but because she couldnt keep her dress off the ice.
Well, Fumie never beat Kwan ever, while in major international competition, Sasha did twice. Also, internationally, Cohen was clearly considered a gold medal contender by 2006, while Fumie was not. Also, it's not as if competing against a past-her-prime Kwan was easy. A past-her-prime Kwan still proved to be considered a top three skater if we go by World results. Yes, I know she placed 4th in Moscow, but her SP and LP were placed third. I will say though that the Japanese field during 2003-2006 was much deeper than the U.S. field.
Fumie peaks at Nationals though so could have beaten old Kwan at Nationals. She didnt even face old Kwan much internationally, I think the only times were the 2003, 2004, and 2005 worlds. 2003 world Kwan was on fire and untouchable, but 2004 worlds Fumie took herself out of winning the world title with the qualifying round (and remember she always beat Shizuka until then and Shizuka won which means Fumie probably would have), and 2005 she would have beaten Kwan easily without all her mistakes. Kwan had a few too, but by then she was usually making mistakes anyway.
By contrast to Fumie, Sasha skated her best at worlds and Olympics. So that she has barely more medals there speaks more in favor of Fumie who hits her peak at Nationals.
In 2005 btw Fumie beat world champion Arakawa, whiz kid who was already probably best in the world Asada, and 2 time world champion Ando to win Nationals. She would have had no problems beating a subpar Kwan. In 2006 she beat Arakawa and Asada, Asada the best skater in the world that year. She would have won that year too, which would leave Cohen with 0 National titles if Fumie was American. The U.S ladies sucked after 2006, so Fumie continuing probably wins every U.S Nationals until 2011 or so. She would own Sasha even worse in National titles if she were American, rather than Japanese.
So Fumie's career owns Sasha's.
I like the way you're able to be so logically confident in what are really just suppositions.
Well so are those who are saying "Fumie would never win U.S Nationals facing Michelle Kwan." Fact is Fumie has a bunch of Japanese National titles and Sasha a mere 1 of hers, and Japanese women are deeper than the U.S. Edge Fumie.
Unfair to assess until we see how Suguri does this next quad...
Yeah Fumie might just light the world on fire this quad. A world title or two and an Olympic medal in Korea would put this discussion clearly in her favor. That is well within her grasp.
"Old and past her best Kwan" won worlds in 2000, Olympic and world medals in 2002, won worlds in 2003, and won the bronze at worlds in 2004 despite injury. Further injured she placed 4th in 2005. All those years she beat Cohen at Nationals.
I would say "old and past her best Kwan" was a worthy adversary, wouldn't you?
Fumie won her titles in 2001, 2002, 2003, and 2006.
2001: Beat Shizuka and also Yoshie Onda. Shizuka placed 6th at 4CC and didn't go to worlds, Yoshie placed 3rd at 4CC. Fumie really had some stiff competition here from the Japan depth.....
2002: Beat Shizuka and Ando. Shizuka again didn't go to worlds but got the bronze at 4CC. Miki was still a Junior and was placing well in Juniors, but realistically was not stiff competition at that point.
2003: Beat Yoshie again, and then Shizuka. Yoshie was 11th at worlds, Shizuka was 8th. Again, not the stiffest of competition for Ms. Suguri. Ando placed pretty low at Nationals, but let's remember that all these ladies were young.
2006: Beat Mao and Shizuka which actually was impressive
....I wouldn't say Fumie was at all challenged at Nationals by anyone nearly as good as Cohen let alone Kwan. The exception was 2006 when Shizuka was finally established and Mao was a promising star. Fumie didn't win titles in 2004-2005, just like Sasha was usurped at US Nats. She walked to most of her JPN titles just like Sasha would have had Kwan not been around.
Fumie did not deserve the 2006 National title at all. Mao was purposely held down in the scores because they knew she wasnt going to the Games, and they didnt want to send the message their Olypmians were inferior to some underaged skater. The plan all along was for Shizuka to win nationals, Fumie to be 2nd, Mao 3rd. However Shizuka faltering in the LP led to her dropping from 1st to 3rd, and Fumie winning. Mao landed her triple lutz-triple loop cleanly in the short and was placed below Shizuka and Fumie, something that would never happen with an international panel. She then skated a spectacular long with her triple axel and a 3-3. Internationally she would crush Fumie with the same skates. If Mao were Olympic bound she would have won Nationals that year by a good 15 points or more.
Am I misunderstanding something? Surely it's better to peak at major international competitions rather than at Nationals? At Nationals a skater should just do enough to get to the international events. International titles are always worth more.
Actually, Fumie had to win Nationals to get on the Olympic team, if I'm remembering things correctly. That was when the JSF used a cumulative point system and Fumie was on the cusp for the 3rd spot so it was believed they scored her very generously to get her the title so she can go. I remember quite clearly there were grumblings about how the Olympic team was predetermined and was always going to be Shizuka, Miki, and Fumie. Yukari Nakano however, was very close to spoiling their plans by skating well on the GP and getting on the podium at GPF. So I think the last spot was between Fumie and Yukari, not Miki and Yukari that is brought up more often. Miki had more points than Fumie prior to Nationals, hence why she placed 6th and was still able to go to Torino. Also, Miki was popular with the public at the time and had sponsors closely connected with the JSF, so that also added fuel to the claims that Miki was gifted a spot on the team.
I do agree that Mao's scores were a bit stingy because she wasn't able to go to Torino. That was the first time she landed 2 triple axels in a LP, IIRC.
It sounds like Fumie's 2006 national title was very political based. That is what I remember hearing people saying at the time. It is frankly hard to believe she can beat a cleanish Mao bringing out the big guns like that ever legitimately. She simply isnt a good enough skater.
It is kind of a farce Miki would be ensured getting on the team in 2006 no matter what. I could understand 2010 but in 2006 she was in no way worthy of that. Shizuka and Fumie were both much better skaters (and Mao but she wasnt a factor for the games) and it is not like she had any really impressive results I can think of. She should have had to earn her spot at Nationals just like Nakano and the rest, and clearly didnt do that.
Michelle isnt the be all and end all of skating though. It is not like Fumie was incapable of ever beating Michelle, had she skated half decent at the 2005 worlds she would have beaten her there too, just as Sasha did. One could turn around and say Fumie has beaten Mao several times, while Sasha never did. Fumie even beat Yu Na Kim in her career, could Sasha have ever done so? Sasha probably matches up better vs Michelle than Fumie does, since Fumie's lack of extension, leg line, and other flaws stand out more next to the polish of Michelle who is too consistent to lose to skaters who cant beat her on their own merits; while Sasha who can match Michelle in those areas compares more favorably. There are others though where Fumie's much better basics and stronger jumpers would stand her in better stead than Sasha who is visibly lacking in those areas.
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