Fumie Suguri VS Sasha Cohen: Who had the better career?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by iarispiralllyof, Apr 3, 2014.

  1. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't take away her national titles in consideration, but I'd think they are very similar to Sasha's silvers- because of the competition Sasha faced at nationals.
  2. whispermink

    whispermink New Member

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    Fumie faced Mao Asada throughout her career at Nationals. Mao is just as great a skater as Kwan, some would argue even better. She also faced Shizukua, a World and Olympic Champion, who is better than the 2nd best person Sasha faced at Nationals. I already pointed out Fumie would have won the 2005, 2006, and 2009 National titles so would have 3 to Sasha's 0, an even bigger gap than now.
  3. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Why are you taking Sasha's title away?

    The years Mao won her titles, except 2008-09, Fumie did not come in second; the three other times she came in either 4th and 7th. So I don't think Mao is a good excuse.
    Fumie did come in 2nd to Shizukua once. So Fumie came in second to the "great skaters" twice. Cohen came in second to Kwan 4 times.
  4. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

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    A comparison that might have been closer for debate would be Fumie Suguri's career vs. Surya Bonaly's career (3 world medals, 5th+4th at successive Olympics, etc.).
  5. shady82

    shady82 New Member

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    :lol: Do you really think Fumie would have won 2004 Worlds even if she skated her best?
  6. shady82

    shady82 New Member

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    I agree. Cohen is kind of anomaly - she could contend with the top but always fell short. There aren't many other skaters who would probably fall in that category. Maybe Cohen and Rochette is a more fitting comparison.
  7. platapus

    platapus New Member

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    Remember Fumie was #1 Japanese going into those worlds and #3 Japanese Shizuka ended up winning, so Fumie winning was possible. She was the recent GPF champion so the judges would have taken her seriously as a gold contender had she skated well in all arounds.

    2005 worlds is far more of a :lol: than 2004. However small her chances of winning in 2004, winning 2005 worlds over Irina on her home ice skating that well is 20 times less. She could have won the silver in 2005 perhaps though, probably no medal in 2004 even skating her best, but chances of a gold were atleast higher than 2005.
  8. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    My question is then, how popular was Fumie exactly in Japan when she was in her prime?
  9. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    I think very. She was included in that famous chocolate commercial that was the 2006 version of the US Campbell's soup one from 1998.

    She also was a very nice exhibition skater, so while I agree she wouldn't get the crowds Sasha would, I don't agree that "no one would want to see her".

    Sasha was very popular in Europe as well as the US, and I didn't find European audiences during this time particularly receptive to Asian skaters, so I do think Sasha enjoyed a broader audience.
  10. shady82

    shady82 New Member

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    2005 she would have done very well with her 4CC performances (2nd place), but in 2004 the thought of her even medaling is a stretch because the field was so stacked.
  11. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    It's funny. The only time I preferred Sasha over Fumie was in the 2005-2006 season. Every other season, I liked Fumie better as I thought she had better choreography, way better skating skills, and more soul. Choreography in 2002-2003 was sort of a wash as I thought both skaters had blah routines. Also, Fumie's Carmen LP blows Sasha's out of the water.

    That said, I'd give the edge to Sasha. I felt she improved every season whereas Fumie never improved upon her deficiencies.
  12. luckewarm

    luckewarm New Member

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    She would have won the bronze very easily in 2005 with her 4CC's performances (heck she didnt even need to skate that well) but I am not sure about 2nd. Probably not. Sasha skated the closest she ever did to a clean LP in a major event at those worlds, and Fumie couldnt even beat a 2 fall Sasha in the LP phase or come close to beating her overall in Turin. Assuming a 61-62 short program, Fumie would have needed to score a good 7 points or more higher than she ever did in a long program to beat Sasha for the silver.

    I dont know why you think beating Sasha in 2005 would be easier than 2004. Sasha's SP at the 2004 worlds was spectacular but her LP was mediocre, lots of shaky landings, combinations left out, and an ugly miss on a triple salchow near the end. Fumie probably had a better shot of silver at the 2004 worlds than 2005, but she wasnt winning gold at either one.
  13. Jarrett

    Jarrett Well-Known Member

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    Sasha will always be a disappointment. Yes, she had a better career than Fumie but should have been one of the greats. I love Fumie but I would say maximized her potential, Sasha barely scratched the surface of hers.
  14. kappa_1

    kappa_1 New Member

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    I would argue that Sasha actually did pretty well with regards to her potential. She had neither the strongest basics nor the strongest technique, and there was no way she would produce semi regular clean performances. It's actually inaccurate when people call Cohen inconsistent. She consistently made one or two mistakes per program, rarely more or less. She rarely if ever double planned triples, and almost never gave up, often fighting back from early mistakes. She was only a disappointment if you bought into the tremendous hype.
  15. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    This is maybe the funniest trash can election, but I fear the discussion will not go anywhere fun.
  16. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    She was probably overhyped but she certainly had more potential than what her career produced. Shizuka Arakawa who was never supposed to be a global skating champion, and while a talented skater isnt truly special the way Sasha is in anyway, even won a world and Olympic title in the same era. Had she done her years first and last cheesefest performances or atleast 2 of her grand prix performances she would have all of the grand prix final, U.S Nationals, and worlds in early 2004, yet she didnt produce that at any of those 3, and lost all 3. If she could do it at those minor venues, why couldnt she in the 3 big events. It makes no sense. Her U.S nationals performances would have won the 2006 worlds and probably the 2006 Olympics (she still tried and landed more clean triples than Shizuka did afterall). Again no reason she could produce that there, but not at the 2 venues it mattered most. Or her Cup of Russia performances at the Nationals or worlds in 2003.

    It would be one thing if she never did it, but she did and just produced something lesser at the most important events and times, as she did at lesser events, and lost gold medals or chances of them because of that.
  17. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    Of course I do, that's what I said in my post.

    You, however, can't seem to be able to post in any thread without being abrasive, which is pretty much what the ingore list is for. Goodbye!
  18. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    she had a tough road ahead of her skating against Michelle and Irina. It's easy to pick on shiz, because she finished 2nd behind her at two big events, but there were other "not as good (hyped?) skaters that she lost medals to starting with our friend and thread subject Fumie. Cohen should have medaled at 02 and 03 worlds, but she didn't, Fumie did. She also lost a spot to cupcake... Talk about "lesser skaters":p Then there's Hughes.. Let's not go there. And of course she lost her last worlds to both Fumie and Kimmie "airplane arms" Meisner.
  19. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

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    Sasha losing 06 Worlds to Kimmie when Michelle, Irina, and Shizuka all were not there pretty much tells me she just was never meant to be a world champion. I mean...talk about being handed something on a golden platter...
  20. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

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    True, but I think a stricter technical caller on Meissner's combinations might have changed the overall result somewhat (although edge calls would have hurt some of the skaters too, including Cohen).
  21. poirierpaul

    poirierpaul Member

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    You didnt ask me but I think she would have. She always beat Shizuka before the 2004 Worlds so why not again if she skated her best. She was the recent Grand Prix Final Champion and that years Japanese National Champion so certaintly had more clout and stronger favor from the Japanese skating federation and international judges than Shizuka had. People are thinking in hindsight how the two were scored vs each other two years later in 2006, but up until that point Fumie was by far Japanese #1.
  22. poirierpaul

    poirierpaul Member

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    You should have said Mao (due to age rules), Irina, Shizuka. Michelle was never a real factor that year anyway, and not someone Sasha needed to worry about beating under COP outside the U.S if she skated at all decent.
  23. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    And that's the crux of the problem, IMO. In some ways COP would have helped Sasha since COP forgives errors in ways 6.0 did not, but conversely, COP is also a bit more unforgivable in some ways than 6.0 in terms of having to make up deficits you have by not hitting the levels/completing elements.
  24. poirierpaul

    poirierpaul Member

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    The field at the 2006 Worlds was so weak Sasha should have just planned 4 triples and 3 double axels (I think that was alowed then). Probably not the lutz, just do a flip, loop, salchow, toe, three double axels, pick up lots of huge GOE and monstrous PCS which a clean skate from her would get, and take the gold. With Shizuka, Irina, Mao and even Kostner, Ando, Kwan, Kim all out for various reasons she was wasting her time trying 7 triples. What was she thinking.
  25. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    People hadn't figured out how to maximize scoring potential by doing the least you can get away with yet.
  26. poirierpaul

    poirierpaul Member

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    So do you think if the event was reheld today that is what she would do? Well 3 double axels arent even allowed anymore so probably not.

    What are Sasha's more problem triples. I know the lutz is one. I think her flip and loop are two of her better ones. The salchow and toe can be a bit hit or miss. So I am not even sure what her safest layout would be. Maybe two triple flips, one in combination with a double toe, two triple loops, one in combination with a double toe, a double axel-double toe-double loop combination, a double axel, and a triple toe. Put the triple toe early on though since she often misses it when it is late.

    I think the program she tried at the 2006 Worlds was too hard for the situation and field, and knowing her inconsistencies on the triples, but as you said thinking was different then anyway.
  27. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I think we would have definitely seen more skaters try the double axel/triple toe loop combination in the LP, so they could get at least two double axel passes in.
  28. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    Such is the enigma wrapped in a riddle that was Ms Sasha Cohen. Didn't she take the SP ice at both Oly and Worlds in 06, skate to one end of the rink, land a beautiful 3z/2t skate to the other end and land a beautiful 3f, then start her LP, skate to one end of the rink and fall on a 3z/2t then skate to the other end of the rink and stumble again on the 3f? How can she do it so brilliantly one day, and totally botch it the next? :shuffle:
  29. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I think it was all in her head. Sasha probably felt the pressure and now with Kwan gone, who one could count on to land at least 5-6 triples and place well enough for a medal most of the time, all eyes were on Sasha. Also, maybe she needed Slute and Arakawa there to put her head back into the game as opposed to just waltzing in there thinking all she needed to do was stand up to win (she was brought up under the 6.0 mentality even if COP changed things). I think it's telling that her Worlds LP was even worse than her Olympic LP in almost all areas (especially performance).
  30. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    My other question always was, does anyone exactly know why Mishin ignored Fumie when she came to work with him?
  31. poirierpaul

    poirierpaul Member

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    On topic though how can anyone even ask this question, which of fumie or Sasha had a better career. Even if you take away Sasha's Olympic silver which is way bigger than anything else either Fumie or Sasha achieved, Sasha would probably be the winner on this topic. So add the Olympic silver and it is like asking is sky blue or red.
  32. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    It depends. Is it during a clear day at noon or is it as sunset?
  33. poirierpaul

    poirierpaul Member

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    OK whether the sky is blue or the sky is gold. With Fumie you would know the sky isnt gold. Sasha atleast made you wonder if it would be. Fumie the thought alone was a big ROTFL moment.
  34. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    considering that some people think a GPF gold is worth more than a World silver, I'd say that thing above our heads with the clouds in it is called "the ground". :lol:
  35. apatinar

    apatinar New Member

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    LOL at this poll.. Sasha and her Olympic silver far trumps Fumie who couldn't get out of regionals the last couple of years..
  36. rickmercer

    rickmercer Member

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    Had Sasha only competed at the 2006 Olympics and no other competition in her life, and won the silver she did there, her career probably already would beat Fumie's solid but unremarkable career. The only way Fumie's career could be construed is better is Sasha today is viewed as a failure and wasted talent, while Fumie is viewed as a hard working overachiever who made the most of relatively so so (at the top world standard) talent and potential. Who ever thought Fumie would someday be a world medalist even, i sure never did. Sasha was supposed to dethrone Michelle Kwan soon after her 2000 debut, and win many world and olympic titles so essentialy she was a dissapointment. She had a career only twice as good as Fumie, when her talent and potential is more like twenty times as much as Fumie.
  37. rickmercer

    rickmercer Member

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    I do think Fumie should have seen some specialists to improve certain aspects of her skating though. She had glaring weaknesses she never fixed. Straighten your darn leg already, it is pretty bad when you have poorer extension than Irina Slutskaya, when unlike Irina the technical master you are supposed to be more an artistic skater than technical. A so called artistic skater who cant even straighten her free leg, point her toe, or do a halfway decent layback spin or spiral wont get too far in the era of Kwan or Cohen. It is amazing she achieved what she even did when you think about it.
  38. rickmercer

    rickmercer Member

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    I would put a GPF about on par with a world silver, not neccessarily ahead. Definitely ahead of a world bronze though.
  39. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    She did have beautiful edge quality though. I saw that Fumie was a medal contender after the 2001 Goodwill Games where she beat Cohen who skated similarly. Fumie had awful extension and toe point and was a bit stiff in her torso and unfortunately, that version of COP only allowed super flexible skaters to get high levels in spins. However, she did have excellent edges, a great spring to her jumps, speed, and a commitment to the choreography most skaters did not have.

    I think her edges and basic skating skills propelled her ahead of Cohen in the beginning of their rivalry. However, Sasha improved a lot by 2006 while Fumie's problems remained the same or looked even worse under COP. However, I thought Fumie had some of the more interesting routines that quad. Shame she saved her most boring LP of that quad (other than her Swan Lake LP in 2003) for Torino.
  40. rickmercer

    rickmercer Member

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    So with all the good points you mentioned she eventually she became a skater good enough to win more medals and maybe a world title if she hired a ballet specialist to greatly improve her flexability, extension, stretch positions, and toe point. I wonder why she didnt do that or was she unaware of the things that were holding her back. You would think sometimes being placed behind top skaters when they make huge errors and you skate cleanly (eg- 2006 olympics) would be enough of a memo. Like I said it is pretty bad when even Irina Slutskaya has better extension and spirals than you do, and you dont have anything like Irina's overall technical ability to compensate.

    Her layback at times was hideous. That leg and foot, the one she did at the 2003 worlds was just scary bad for a top skater and potential medalist. It made Maria Butyrskaya and Elena Sokolova's look beautiful.