Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by iarispiralllyof, Apr 3, 2014.
*le sigh* Nicole Bobek would have won 1995 Worlds had she done her 1998 Nationals performances.
And I would have won 2000 worlds if I had learned how to skate, and managed to do it better than Michelle Kwan.
Um- it makes NO sense to give Fumie 'credit' for her supposed ability to win worlds, assuming she hadn't skated poorly. Can't you say the same for Sasha? Sasha- who would have won worlds, if she scored more points.
Even if Fumie were an American she would have 3 or 4 National titles, as many or more as the 3 she has now, while Sasha would have none. Fumie would have won the 2005 nationals with her 4CCs performance which were on at almost the same time. She would have won the 2006 nationals with her Japanese National performances where she was amazing and beat a clean Mao Asada. She would have won the 2009 U.S Nationals with her Japanese Nationals performances. She might have won the 2007 and/or 2008 U.S Nationals too. So 3 or 4 National titles for Fumie just like she has now, and poor Sasha with 0.
No, she wouldnt have. Only 4 clean triples, a couple of mistakes (a doubled jump, and hands down on another) and a silly Dr. Zhivago program vs Chen's 5 clean triples and stunning program. Now had she had only 1 fall instead of 2 she would have won worlds after she landed her triple flutz-triple toe/turn out at worlds, but not with her National performances.
People are taking away from Fumie's National titles though because she wasnt American. I am just pointing out they are wrong. People are also saying Fumie didnt have the ability to win Worlds, and on that they are also wrong. She had the ability to win Worlds, just like Sasha did and also didnt do.
Oh, c'mon, you can't be serious? Or can you??
You are the one who cant be serious. If you think Nicole's Nationals performance with only 4 clean triples and to a program that looked juniorish compared to Chen's would have won worlds. She wouldnt have even won Nationals over Kwan with that performance had Kwan done her worlds performance, and Kwan's world performance didnt even medal or come close to beating Chen for the title.
I can't imagine that anyone ever considered Fumie to be a rival for Michelle. Sasha was, every time she skated (well at the beginning of the skate). Sasha was breath taking to watch. Fumie was sometimes quite lovely, but didn't rise IMO to the Sasha level. Or Bobek, either.
If you just want to do a medal count...........ok. That works out however the numbers work out. But those stats could be manipulated if you adjust for where, other competitors, etc.
My first thought when I saw the topic was: Well, Sasha, duh. How many people would go to see Fumie in a show? Not all that many. Sasha pulls in an audience.
Sasha beat Michelle Kwan less times than Butyrskaya did. By your logic Butyrskaya must be a rival to Kwan. Sorry Sasha was no rival to Kwan. Kwan's only real rivals ever were Tara and Slutskaya.
But the Japanese pushed her away so fast once Mao came on. Unlike Sasha, Fumie was not memorable nationally or internationally. I liked her for a period before she decided to keep going.
And Sasha is a silver Olympic Medalist.
I wouldn't take away her national titles in consideration, but I'd think they are very similar to Sasha's silvers- because of the competition Sasha faced at nationals.
Fumie faced Mao Asada throughout her career at Nationals. Mao is just as great a skater as Kwan, some would argue even better. She also faced Shizukua, a World and Olympic Champion, who is better than the 2nd best person Sasha faced at Nationals. I already pointed out Fumie would have won the 2005, 2006, and 2009 National titles so would have 3 to Sasha's 0, an even bigger gap than now.
Why are you taking Sasha's title away?
The years Mao won her titles, except 2008-09, Fumie did not come in second; the three other times she came in either 4th and 7th. So I don't think Mao is a good excuse.
Fumie did come in 2nd to Shizukua once. So Fumie came in second to the "great skaters" twice. Cohen came in second to Kwan 4 times.
A comparison that might have been closer for debate would be Fumie Suguri's career vs. Surya Bonaly's career (3 world medals, 5th+4th at successive Olympics, etc.).
Do you really think Fumie would have won 2004 Worlds even if she skated her best?
I agree. Cohen is kind of anomaly - she could contend with the top but always fell short. There aren't many other skaters who would probably fall in that category. Maybe Cohen and Rochette is a more fitting comparison.
Remember Fumie was #1 Japanese going into those worlds and #3 Japanese Shizuka ended up winning, so Fumie winning was possible. She was the recent GPF champion so the judges would have taken her seriously as a gold contender had she skated well in all arounds.
2005 worlds is far more of a than 2004. However small her chances of winning in 2004, winning 2005 worlds over Irina on her home ice skating that well is 20 times less. She could have won the silver in 2005 perhaps though, probably no medal in 2004 even skating her best, but chances of a gold were atleast higher than 2005.
My question is then, how popular was Fumie exactly in Japan when she was in her prime?
I think very. She was included in that famous chocolate commercial that was the 2006 version of the US Campbell's soup one from 1998.
She also was a very nice exhibition skater, so while I agree she wouldn't get the crowds Sasha would, I don't agree that "no one would want to see her".
Sasha was very popular in Europe as well as the US, and I didn't find European audiences during this time particularly receptive to Asian skaters, so I do think Sasha enjoyed a broader audience.
2005 she would have done very well with her 4CC performances (2nd place), but in 2004 the thought of her even medaling is a stretch because the field was so stacked.
It's funny. The only time I preferred Sasha over Fumie was in the 2005-2006 season. Every other season, I liked Fumie better as I thought she had better choreography, way better skating skills, and more soul. Choreography in 2002-2003 was sort of a wash as I thought both skaters had blah routines. Also, Fumie's Carmen LP blows Sasha's out of the water.
That said, I'd give the edge to Sasha. I felt she improved every season whereas Fumie never improved upon her deficiencies.
She would have won the bronze very easily in 2005 with her 4CC's performances (heck she didnt even need to skate that well) but I am not sure about 2nd. Probably not. Sasha skated the closest she ever did to a clean LP in a major event at those worlds, and Fumie couldnt even beat a 2 fall Sasha in the LP phase or come close to beating her overall in Turin. Assuming a 61-62 short program, Fumie would have needed to score a good 7 points or more higher than she ever did in a long program to beat Sasha for the silver.
I dont know why you think beating Sasha in 2005 would be easier than 2004. Sasha's SP at the 2004 worlds was spectacular but her LP was mediocre, lots of shaky landings, combinations left out, and an ugly miss on a triple salchow near the end. Fumie probably had a better shot of silver at the 2004 worlds than 2005, but she wasnt winning gold at either one.
Sasha will always be a disappointment. Yes, she had a better career than Fumie but should have been one of the greats. I love Fumie but I would say maximized her potential, Sasha barely scratched the surface of hers.
I would argue that Sasha actually did pretty well with regards to her potential. She had neither the strongest basics nor the strongest technique, and there was no way she would produce semi regular clean performances. It's actually inaccurate when people call Cohen inconsistent. She consistently made one or two mistakes per program, rarely more or less. She rarely if ever double planned triples, and almost never gave up, often fighting back from early mistakes. She was only a disappointment if you bought into the tremendous hype.
This is maybe the funniest trash can election, but I fear the discussion will not go anywhere fun.
She was probably overhyped but she certainly had more potential than what her career produced. Shizuka Arakawa who was never supposed to be a global skating champion, and while a talented skater isnt truly special the way Sasha is in anyway, even won a world and Olympic title in the same era. Had she done her years first and last cheesefest performances or atleast 2 of her grand prix performances she would have all of the grand prix final, U.S Nationals, and worlds in early 2004, yet she didnt produce that at any of those 3, and lost all 3. If she could do it at those minor venues, why couldnt she in the 3 big events. It makes no sense. Her U.S nationals performances would have won the 2006 worlds and probably the 2006 Olympics (she still tried and landed more clean triples than Shizuka did afterall). Again no reason she could produce that there, but not at the 2 venues it mattered most. Or her Cup of Russia performances at the Nationals or worlds in 2003.
It would be one thing if she never did it, but she did and just produced something lesser at the most important events and times, as she did at lesser events, and lost gold medals or chances of them because of that.
Of course I do, that's what I said in my post.
You, however, can't seem to be able to post in any thread without being abrasive, which is pretty much what the ingore list is for. Goodbye!
she had a tough road ahead of her skating against Michelle and Irina. It's easy to pick on shiz, because she finished 2nd behind her at two big events, but there were other "not as good (hyped?) skaters that she lost medals to starting with our friend and thread subject Fumie. Cohen should have medaled at 02 and 03 worlds, but she didn't, Fumie did. She also lost a spot to cupcake... Talk about "lesser skaters" Then there's Hughes.. Let's not go there. And of course she lost her last worlds to both Fumie and Kimmie "airplane arms" Meisner.
Sasha losing 06 Worlds to Kimmie when Michelle, Irina, and Shizuka all were not there pretty much tells me she just was never meant to be a world champion. I mean...talk about being handed something on a golden platter...
True, but I think a stricter technical caller on Meissner's combinations might have changed the overall result somewhat (although edge calls would have hurt some of the skaters too, including Cohen).