Fumie Suguri VS Sasha Cohen: Who had the better career?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by iarispiralllyof, Apr 3, 2014.

  1. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

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    I'm not talking about skills, but just their resumes.
    Cohen, despite her tendency to fall, was one of the most naturally talented and beautiful skaters ever. Her legacy is solidified despite having a sub-par record (when compared to most all-time greats), and from 2002-2006 she was always a contender for the podium, something which wasn't really true for Fumie. With that said, if we cast aside both skills and expectations, and look simply at the results, their careers are pretty evenly matched imo.

    Fumie:
    2004 Grand Prix Final Champion
    3 x World Championship Medalist
    3 x 4 Continents Champion
    5 x Japanese National Champion
    Bronze medalist at 2002 Goodwill Games
    Placed 5th at 02 Olympics and 4th at 06 Olympics

    In addition she's medaled at 12 Grand Prix events

    Sasha:
    2006 Olympic silver medalist
    3 x World Championship Medalist
    2006 US National Champion

    She medaled at 8 Grand Prix events

    Sasha has an Olympic silver medal which is an obvious edge on Fumie. However, some people thought Sasha was overscored at the 2006 Olympics with her multiple falls while Fumie's clean skate deserved a Bronze. In every other regard, Fumie either matches or surpasses Sasha's record: they both have the same # of world medals, Fumie has far more national titles, grand prix medals and is a 3 x 4 Continents champion (which Sasha never competed in). Fumie also has a bronze at the Goodwill Games while Sasha only achieved 4th place there.

    Does Sasha's Olympic medal compensate for all of that and put her on top?
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2014
  2. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

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    Hard to choose which had the better career. Both had some very respectable results. On a different note, I'm rather dubious about Cohen's talent however as a skater.
     
  3. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    Didn't we just have this thread like a month ago?

    Sasha oly silver to fume oly no medal +2
    Sasha two world silver one bronze to fume one silver and two bronze, +1

    Nobody cares about national titles, 4cc, gwg, etc... Both won a bunch of gp medals so it's a wash. Personally, I don't give much credit to the cheese fest they call GPF, but iirc Sasha did win it once, so another edge over fume I suppose.

    Cohen's the slam dunk winner here IMHO. Plus she had much more buzz and influence.
     
  4. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

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    Fair enough but it's kinda weird to me that you don't seem to disregard the GP events individually yet in the next breath you denounce the GPF as a cheesefest. I think most would agree it's worth more than the individual GP events.

    And Fumie DID win a GPF.

    Also, buzz and influence aren't factors here. Although I have to say on a separate note, I think Cohen's influence is overstated. I believe it was coincidental that COP valued maximized spin levels and skaters followed suit. Most skaters don't list Cohen as an influence.
     
  5. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    I think you just want people to say Fumie rather than Sasha which is why you say they're both 3 time world medalists, as if that's equal, when in fact, Sasha has 2 silvers and a bronze to Fumie's one silver and two bronzes....that couple with the Oly Silver puts Sasha ahead.

    Also while you listed Fumie's win at the GPF (her only medal there), you ommitted Sasha's gold and silver at the GPF, so another tick in Sasha's column here.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2014
  6. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

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    Yes, this is a conspiracy LOL. :rolleyes: It's a forum topic. I'm asking for debate. The stats are all from wikipedia and anyone is free to add their two cents.

    Also 2 bronzes and a silver vs 2 silvers and a bronze is literally a difference by just one placement, but you're acting like it's a mountain of difference.
     
  7. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    You are the one that was asking about their records....one place difference is a difference. If you don't care about the differences, why even start the topic? I just disagree with you, which is also the point of a forum topic....diddums :rolleyes:

    You also happened to forget to list Sasha's GPF medals too...but they're probably insignificant to you too, because Sasha has the better record there too :lol:
     
  8. cbd1235

    cbd1235 Well-Known Member

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    Sasha easy.

    I would take 1x olympic silver, 2x world silver, 1x world bronze over Fumies 3 lesser world medals and no Olympic medal. Sasha had a better gpf career and nothing else matters.

    If I were competing in Japan in the 90's/2000's then I would do infinitely better than at US nats. There is no comparison between Japan Nat's at that's time, and US Nat's, where Sasha only got a flock of silvers because she was skating against the most consistent and strongest skater of that whole decade... And doing it at home before even the world championships.

    If you're basing your argument over national titles then that's silly.
     
  9. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

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    Are you serious? You were accusing me of twisting the facts to paint the situation a certain way when I simply neglected to clarify their world medals in the original post of what was meant to be a discussion. I welcome people to add on or correct me, which is why I would make a topic to begin with. My intro was more than kind to her.

    And I never denied your right to an opinion about their world medal results, I was just offering my personal take on it. You do realize that having the right to an opinion doesn't mean that no one can comment on it or contest your opinion right?
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2014
  10. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    i didn't mean to imply a gp medal is greater that a GPF medal. GPs are B list events, but when a skater consistently medals at several of them over many years, it displays a high level of competence over time which I think does matters on a resume.

    I think people here way overvalue the GPF like its = to worlds or something. It's not. There are a limited amount of skaters and it's not really the creme-de-la-creme they make it out to be. People get injured, drop out, have one bad early season event, or just skip it. Kwan winning SA and then making the final that year was :lol:

    But, when someone like irina shows consistent high finishes, like always making the GPF or medaling at the GPF almost every year she goes, that does show something and would place her higher than someone like Malinina, Abbott, Sandu, etc...

    sweet! :encore:I didn't know :( (FYI I'm a fume fan. Don't know how I missed that one)
    Eta: oh she won in 2004! I was living abroad and they didn't televise gpfs. I did go to Dortmund, and I loved her programs that year! So sad she didn't finish better there. God, that was a strange worlds.

    its a resume, so sorry, I do think things like everyone in your industry talking about you as a big influencer is very much a factor in pretty much most if not all industries. Cohen was one of the most talked about skaters during her time. I would argue she was overhyped, but that's subjective.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2014
  11. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Sasha easily. An Olympic silver medal is arguably already worth more than Fumie's whole career already. Then when you consider Sasha has 2 world silver and 1 world bronze to Fumie's 1 silver and 2 bronze, Sasha has a GPF gold and silver to Fumie's gold and last place finish, Sasha had many more grand prix victories and dominance (5 wins in 11 events vs Fumie 1 win in 26 events, and 5 wins and 8 medals >>>>> 1 win and 12 medals as top skaters skate to win grand prixs); and Sasha was actually was in position and had huge chances to win worlds and Olympics which Fumie never was, and it is no contest.

    That Sasha was considered by many people the best skater in the world in fall 2002, before her own failures and Kwan's resurgence at Nationals and worlds, fall of 2003 and 2004 (I think even after losing the grand prix final, Nationals, and Worlds to 3 different skaters due to mistakes many would have called her the best in the world at that point), and early 2006, is another factor even talking about "career". After all one skates to win medals and titles, but the main reason for that, besides financial, is the recognition of being the best, which is usually attained through big titles. Even if you dont agree with all the time periods I mentioned, there were atleast brief periods Sasha was considered the consensus best skater in the world, despite not winning a world title. Fumie was never even close.

    Fumie's only edge are her 4CCs title (an event the top Americans never skated then), and more National titles. Fumie would have 0 National titles if she were an American, or maybe one in 2005 by beating good but not great Michelle and subpar Sasha if she duplicated her 4CCs performance at U.S Nationals (unlikely as she rarely skated her best on the biggest stage or with the biggest opportunities just like Sasha), so at most would have equal number to Sasha, and probably less medals. She was never beating Michelle 2004 or earlier (which Sasha actually could have done potentially with her best skates, but never Fumie), or Sasha in 2006, or winning any title from 2007 onwards. These days Japanese National titles are much harder to win than U.S titles, but that wasnt the case in the days of the Kween who always peaked for Nationals (and who Fumie never beat once her whole career), and the days before Asada, adult Ando, Suzuki, and the current Japanese depth. Shizuka never skated well at Nationals. Either way all National titles are not equal. Just like if Yu Na Kim wins 15 Korean Nationals it wont be more impressive than Michelle's 9, or you wont even be able to compare to other countries either better or worse. Nationals can only be used to compare skaters from your own country to one another erally.

    While there are some odd ones here and there I dont think most believe should have medalled at the 2006 Olympics either. Fumie had mistakes in her LP (doubling a major triple, some shaky landings), her LP itself was a huge blah, and while her short was very good technically it was far behind Irina and Sasha so deservedly was atleast several points behind (Shizuka was way overscored in the short but she isnt a factor for Fumie to place above overall as her long was way better anyway).
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2014
  12. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    I'd say Sasha for sure.

    (And when comparing national titles- I think you have to look at who they competed against. Sasha finished second to one of the greatest figure skaters of all time, multiple times. Her lack of title those years really doesn't say much about her.)

    You list medals in the original post, but don't say what they are. When comparing that they are both 3x world medalists- the person with the higher medals obviously has done better.

    The comparison in the first post is clearly biased.
     
  13. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    If GPs are B list, what does that make Senior Bs? C list?
    I don't think the ISU sees GP as "B list"- they are non-championship events.
    GPF is certainly not a cheese fest- it has fewer skaters because it is incredibly difficult to qualify for it.

    You know this happens at Worlds too, right?
     
  14. cbd1235

    cbd1235 Well-Known Member

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    I actually agree that GP's are B list. With that said, the A-list is Worlds and Olympics, with lesser A-list (or upper B-list) being GPF. 4CC/Euros depending on the field that year is probably upper B list imo. Not too sure. Senior B's are definitely C-list haha, or worse if that's possible.

    In an easier way to understand: Olympics > Worlds >>> GPF >> 4CC/Euros >> GP's >>>> Senior B's imo
     
  15. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    That is about right and going from most to least in importance then:

    Olympics- Sasha >>> Fumie
    Worlds- Sasha > Fumie
    GPF- Sasha > Fumie
    4CCs- Fumie >>> Sasha
    grand prixs- Sasha >>> Fumie (like I said 5 wins crush 1 win, I dont care how many medals someone who skated 26 grand prixes won)
    Senior Bs- Sasha > Fumie (I think, dont know much about either of their history here, nor care, but know Sasha won a couple)

    Even if you fit Nationals and Goodwill games somewhere in the middle and give Fumie an > for both, easy to see who the edge goes to. We might as well add cheesefests at the bottom, and Sasha owns those. You could even add pro careers somewhere, and Sasha owns that too as Fumie didnt even have one.
     
  16. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    I think 4CC/Euros/GPF are pretty equal- they are all ISU Championships with limited entry; with GPF being the most difficult to gain entry to. That said, especially when comparing skaters from years ago- Euros is definetly more important than 4CCs. 4CCs is gaining prominence, but even now isn't treated as a much of a championship- it is a common event to skip to prepare for another one. A decade ago, top skaters almost never went.
     
  17. cbd1235

    cbd1235 Well-Known Member

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    Yes Euros is definitely more important than 4CC's but it kind of depends on the field. Sometimes there are so many amazing European skaters, other years there are few. It's weird like that.

    The reason I figure GPF was better than the continents championships is that it includes the whole world, whereas the later championships are split up into two events and not everyone is included in each one. It's also harder to gain entry to the GPF. But then again, one could argue that some of the best skaters don't always partake in the GP events, but as of lately it's only been a select couple skaters who didn't. One could also argue that some GP events make it harder to qualify for the final than others.

    In the end it's really hard to say haha!

    Yup Sasha totally owned Fumie in every grouping but 4CC. Even then, it's hard for anyone to hammer Sasha for that considering that she straight up didn't feel it was important enough to go (US usually sent their No's 4-6 right?). That would kind of be like comparing two skaters and saying that skater X was better since they won sectionals 4 times, whereas skater Y just never went to sectionals because they didn't have to, but probably would have won it had they gone.

    It's silly to compare the two skaters when you take a hard look at their credentials, Sasha wins.
     
  18. kwanlysacek

    kwanlysacek Member

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    How could national titles be an edge for Suguri. Did Suguri face Michelle Kwan at Japanese nationals. Maybe if she beat a skater equally good as Michelle like Mao Asada to win her national titles it would make sense in the comparision to Cohen but she didnt.

    Of course Sasha is the answer to this. Fumie would have happily retired after 2006 or 2007 at the latest if she had Sasha's career instead of her own, rather than putting herself through 8 years of hell for nothing. That already tells you all you need to know.

    The only sense Fumie's career could be considered better than Sasha's is people ,except maybe herself, were thrilled with Fumie's career as her potential was never that high to begin with. She was an overachiever. Sasha's career is a dissapointment since she was supposed to be a many time national, world, and evne an Olympic champion but failed.
     
  19. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    In his most recent "I say out loud what most people think" interview, Trankov was like "4cc = Euros? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: "

    Anywho, what I was trying to say was that people keep acting like GPF is some "only the best" event that will then predict how Oly and/or worlds will go down, and it simply ain't true. Like saying that the team event meant Yulia was going to win the individual event. YuNa wasn't even there! Malinia won a GPF that Kwan wasn't even at, and look what happened a few weeks later. Kwan Silver. Malinina no medal. It ain't = worlds n matter how much people keep trying to spin it. And please with the "it's not a show event, it's so hard to qualify for". People don't even get invited to cheesefests unless that have a good resume. Talk about hard to qualify for. $peedy invented the GPF to steal skaters and TV $$ from the pro events. It's the one cheesefest the ISU runs for themselves.
     
  20. marcustire

    marcustire New Member

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    Malinina would have won silver at the 99 worlds had she not stepped out of her combination in the short. So her GPF was a good indicator she had good chances at worlds. Anyway her GPF was less an indicator than usual considering Maria took 3 huge falls to gift her that title, and Michelle wasnt there otherwise she also might not have won.

    Who cares about the value of the grand prix final vs worlds. Fumie is weaker than Sasha in both events anyway, and practically every other one.
     
  21. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    There's a quote from John Kerr in the latest skating magazine that is something along the lines of "we used to get really upset when people compared US Nationals to Euros, but having been here now, it really is very similar"
     
  22. marcustire

    marcustire New Member

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    U.S Nationals is even bigger than Four Continents though. It attracts a much stronger field. After all Fumie won Four Continents more times than she ever would have U.S Nationals.
     
  23. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    well, bronze had Kwan not had her own SP issues :p but I catch your drift. It was a very good year for her. It was a shame she couldn't keep that level up for more than a couple of years. But as a viewer, it is always great to see someone step out of the shadows and have their day in the sun, even make it to US TV! :lol: but back to Resume: consistent GP medals of any color like Cohen, Kwan and Irina got will always be a stronger resume than a one time "got lucky" gold.
     
  24. marcustire

    marcustire New Member

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    I can see your point but in this comparision that is not a plus for Fumie but yet another one for Sasha. Sasha was a far more consistent and strong grand prix performer than Fumie. She medalled in almost every grand prix she ever entered, and only once was lower than 4th. She won almost every grand prix she was in during her prime from 2003-2006. How many grand prixs has Fumie won in her long career, 1 or 2 only I believe, and she has a huge number of horrible finishes, even before she entered her granny stage. OP tries to potray as Fumie better in the grand prix since she has more medals which is kind of a joke, since if you skate 20 years of course you will have more medals, but even then she had far fewer wins. Heck Fumie could only qualify for the grand prix final itself once on her own despite skating the full grand prix about 10 times, she got in 2003 as an alternate only.

    I dont really understand the OP's logic in this . Saying Fumie might have had the better career with doing worse or no better (usually worse) than Sasha in Olympics, worlds, grand prix final, all because she won a medal at the Goodwill Games, won more National titles vs weaker competition, did better at Four Continents due to Sasha never skating, and more grand prix medals due to competing in like 30-35 grand prixs? There is a better argument Slutskaya had a better career than Michelle Kwan (which btw I would never argue either) than this. Atleast you could say Irina did as well or better everywhere except worlds and Nationals, and if Four Continents is important comparing Fumie and Sasha, then Irina won Europeans 7 times and Michelle 4CCs never. Even saying Irina had a better career than Michelle unless she had won the Olympic gold is borderline laughable though, which puts this comparision even more into perspective.
     
  25. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    Cheese fest? :confused: What does GPF even remotely have in common with something like Marshall's?
     
  26. AxelAnnie

    AxelAnnie Well-Known Member

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    Fumie & Sasha? So random. I would never have thought to compare these two.
     
  27. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    If the GPF is a cheesefest, I think that means that Worlds, Olympics, and maybe Euros are the only competitions that are not?
     
  28. whispermink

    whispermink New Member

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    When you think about it though, it kind of makes sense. Two skaters who were never good enough to win a really big title like Worlds or Olympics, but were always top 5 and often on the podium. Wannabee rivals to Kwan, who never really were. Both probably fall firmly under that second tier category of top skater.
     
  29. Jiazumi

    Jiazumi Active Member

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    Fumie Who?

    Sasha my dear.
     
  30. whispermink

    whispermink New Member

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    Fumie the winner of 4 world medals, 1 more than Sasha could manage. Fumie, who would have won the 2004 worlds had she not bombed the qualifying round, and the 2005 worlds had she done her 4CCs performances.