Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by tkaug, Nov 7, 2012.
This really was her last strong skate.
I'll always say Fumie was robbed of a higher placement after the SP at the Olympics. I would have placed her (and some other skaters) above Sarah Hughes.
In 2002? Sure. I really would have had her as high as third behind Kwan and Cohen, but ahead of Slutskaya, Sebestyen and Butyrskaya.
2002 was a tough SP to mark since an overwhelming majority of the ladies skated clean.
I always remember thinking Meier was robbed since she was one of the few ladies that had steps directly into her solo jump without a pause.
Well, I'm one of those oddballs, too, because I really love that program. Thanks for sharing, falling_dance. I wish there was an applause emoticon.
Kwan had a flutz, cheated her triple flip quite considerably and was clearly off-beat during her step sequence. /nitpick mode
But yeah Suguri should have definitely placed higher than she did.
Given the majority of ladies skated "clean" (one of the best Ladies SPs ever!) and this was before CoP, it was extremely hard to judge. The results we got were quite crazy. I mean how did Hughes manage to place so high with her cheated, shaky jumps, weak basics and generally not being at the level of many other skaters, I will never know. Home ice advantage maybe?
Three criticisms of Kwan, and you're "nitpicking".
Three, possibly four criticisms of Hughes (including the very vague "generally not being at the level of many other skaters"), and it's "crazy" and you can't understand it.
Not very well argued, Ziggy.
It's interesting that although Irina tended to dominate in the SP portion of her competitions, she never won the SP at any of her three Olympics. Ok the first one didn't really count as Irina wasn't at her peak yet.
Even though my favorite skater never won the Olympics, I do like that she did win the Olympics twice....in the short program.
Also in 2006. She should have been above Shizuka's snoozefest of a short program in 3rd place, but instead wound up a whopping 5 points back of Shizuka, who was ridiculously tied with the much superior performances of both Cohen and Slutskaya. Suguri's short was actually my favorite of the Games, although objectively I cant say it should be placed above Irina or Sasha. Shizuka must have really blown the judges away in practice to get that score in the short.
Suguri's jumps were fine but there was a clear difference between Suguri and the medalists in terms of the levels and qualities of spins, steps, and spirals both in short and free. Arakawa really worked on it after losing to Suguri at the nationals while Suguri didn't although there were many things she could have improved.
By the way, I posted this thread to discuss what Suguri is now, not her past?
That was excellent.
Missed ya, Zigs. But yes, Kwan was so clearly better than the rest that I would still have her in first based on the second mark despite the flawed 3flip. If I recall correctly she was one of the few top skaters to put the 3flip so late in the program.
Hughes' scoring at Worlds and Olympics all those years have always been unfortunate. I hate that she was almost 'encouraged' to stand up on cheated 3/3s whereas someone like Nagasu was forced to clean up her solo jumps even though hers were probably better than Hughes'.
Didn't Hughes and Nagasu compete under different systems? I thought Nagasu (and Zhang) were touted as The.Next.Big.Thing. while they competed under 6.0 and then COP came along and their jumps were no longer what people thought they were.
That's what I meant. Nagasu was born 6 years too late, or Hughes 6 years too early. Nagasu was a much better skater but somehow timing made Hughes an Olympic Champ but Nagasu could only make Worlds once. They had the same deadly weakness.
Anyway I don't think Zhang and Nagasu came about until 2006/7 in juniors and by then COP had already been in place for a couple of years already.
Slutskaya 4th or lower in the short in SLC. Your posts are always great for a laugh.
Hughes had one big advantage over Mirai and that she was one tough cookie as a competitor. I never saw fear in her eyes as a skater even as a 13 year old at Sr Worlds.
Finally this thread is in its rightful place!
You really need the vague being elaborated? I mean it's Sarah Hughes. Sarah. Hughes. The Margaret Thatcher of figure skating. She was slouching. Not a single movement was extended. She wasn't even trying (not only weren't the toes and fingers never pointed but she didn't even straighten her arms and legs). A flutz off a deep inside edge cheated over 1/4. A short break after footwork before the 3flip which was slightly cheated and two-footed. The layback was slightly off-centred. Her edges weren't particularly deep or stable and some of her crossovers were quite laboured.
2axel was solid but given that most of the Ladies stayed upright on everything, her overall quality just wasn't there to place her inside the top 10, let alone 3rd! Not anywhere near.
Don't patronise me Ziggy; I've got enough problems already.
She was fourth, not third.
It was meant to be repetition with hysteric emphasis for comedic effect but things like that are hard to put across in writing alone. ;P
Of course, my bad.
I call complete BS on this post!
Here's the SP.
I don't get the negativity about her basic skating - she had pretty good basics, and the slouching wasn't as prevalent in this SP as some of her earlier programmes - she certianly slouched a lot less than Slutskaya. Her arms and specifically her fingers in this programme seemed extended at all times. There were parts of the programme where her free leg was relaxed in the knee and could have been pointed, but there were more parts where it was locked out and pointed. The Flutz was probably the worst out there, and was short by a 1/4 turn, but that was back when no-one cared. The triple flip did have a break between the steps and the jump, but all of the ladies were exactly the same here (except Meier as I said before). The commentators might have said she "may have two footed" the flip, but I do not think she did - it doesn't appear to be the case looking at the slow motion, and it wasn't cheated.
Her spins in this performance were not as well executed as I remembered. The flying camel was under-revved. The final combination spin had more revs in transition than it had in actual positions and the front end might also be under-revved.
Actually I think the slouching was more evident in this performance because she attempted so many arabesque positions but the knees were always bent and the back down.
The mule kicks made my eyes water.
Sarah benefited from skating at "home" and her consistent season so far for sure. I feel Sasha benefited even more from skating at home though. Who skates clean and places 3rd at their FIRST major senior international competition, much less the Olympic Games? Sasha Cohen. I'm not complaining at all though she deserved it.
I agree with that. Sasha's performance was good enough for top 3, but being a total newbie with absoultely NO international cred yet, had the event been somewhere else she would have been lucky to make the final flight. I think had the Olympics been in Europe or Asia the short program standings (not what they should have been neccessarily but would have been) are:
2. Kwan or Butyrskaya
4. Suguri or Hughes
6. Sebeysten or Cohen
Personally I had Sarah 9th in the short behind in order Slutskaya, Kwan or Cohen, Butyrskaya, Suguri, Sebeysten, Gusmeroli, and Robinson. She still would have been held up anywhere though, due to her consistency the last 2 years and World bronze medal. Probably not over Butyrskaya (granted her short was very tenative and not that great either IMO), but over most of the others who should have beat her.
Wow, I had never seen her Nationals performance. Her last great skate indeed.
I loved Suguri so much, especially for her 2002, 2005 and 2007 LPs.
And well, I'm aware that this is an awkward statement but watching her skates makes me think a flutz can be beautiful.
Well, what is she up to now?
What?? Although TBH, maybe.
Just came across this thread. A page-turner, it is.
I did kind of feel bad for Fumie not medaling in 2006, but her programs starting from that season on were so awful that I didn't care too much for it. Her Torino programs either made her lack of stretch painfully obvious, or her stretch become significantly worse. Either way, the programs were clearly not suited and not aesthetically pleasing. She landed just five triples in the LP too - I can argue it was close between Fumie and Irina, but it isn't much controversy that the results turned it the way they did.
On the other hand, if Fumie came up with programs as good as her previous programs, then she probably deserved a medal. Sasha's programs were good but a bit too tight for my taste. Irina's programs were forgettable, and Shizuka's programs were alright, but with Turandot she truly was a one-trick show. Fumie's 2002 and 2005 programs were gems (along with Paint It Black). If she presented these programs and skated well (such as at the 2003-04 GPF or 2005 FC), IMO she deserved to win, though the judges probably wouldn't give her that liberty.
I don't understand why some people think Fumie was robbed in 2002. She was robbed in the SP (I would have her 4th or 5th), but I don't think she was medal-worthy. Many act as if Sasha's FP was a disaster, when she in fact landed 6 reasonably clean triples, with the only failure being on the back end of her 3lutz-3toe. Fumie landed five triples, and a good argument can be made for why she should be ahead of Sasha because IMO Moonlight Sonata was a better program than Carmen, but it was no controversy.
EVERY ladies thread goes back to the 2002 Olympics SP at some point, but I like to discuss it too so I'm ok with it.
My personal opinion:
1. Slutskaya: 5.8, 5.8
2. Kwan: 5.6, 5.9
3. Cohen: 5.7, 5.7
4. Suguri: 5.6, 5.6
5. Sebestyen: 5.7, 5.4
6. Butyrskaya: 5.5, 5.6
7. Hughes: 5.4, 5.6
8. Meier: 5.4, 5.5
9. Gusmeroli: 5.3, 5.5
10. Robinson: 5.2, 5.3
11. Fontana: 5.0, 5.4
A couple notes:
- Kwan and Cohen can easily be swapped, I'd be ok with that.
- I never understand why some people think Bute was robbed in the SP. Her lutz and flip were shaky, her spirals and laybacks were abnormally weak, and she didn't skate with the usual convincing artistry she has.
- I was surprised that Meier got such high scores at SLC since at Skate Canada she got mostly high 4s for technical after a clean SP, but I'm ok with the outcome.
- Sebestyen had probably the second best elements that night, but her presentation was particularly forgettable with that program.
There are 27 skaters listed for the SP in SLC. Suguri was already disadvantaged by skating 2nd in the SP, which in 6.0 could be deadly. Did they group them 5-5-6-6-6? If so, Hughes, who beat her 7-2 in ordinals was in the same group, and Cohen was in the next. If the first group had six, then Cohen, who beat her (and Hughes) 9-0 in ordinals would have been last to skate in the first group. (The other three in the first group were Zhang , Lebedeva , and Kopac . Of them, only 19th place Kopac got an mark above 5, a 5.1 in Presentation, and the highest combined score of 10.)
The ordinals for Kwan, Slutskaya, and Cohen were consistent: The only one who had ordinals out of the top three was Cohen, who lost three 3rds to Butyrskaya. Suguri was given two 4th- and two 5th-place ordinals -- Krick and Pizzocari put her ahead of Hughes, Butyrskaya, and Sebestyen, and Islam and Inman put her ahead of Butyrskaya and Sebestyen -- but the ordinals from Danilenko (13), Blangsted (11), and Absaliamova (12) sunk her enough to lose a spot in the last group of the Free Skate. The other two judges were Hrachovcova, who placed her 8th, behind the top six and Sarah Meier (5th), and Leskinen, who placed her 9th, behind the top six, Meier (7th) and Fontana (8th).
I also dont understand the people who think Fumie deserved a medal in SLC. Her free skate was definitely not stronger than Kwan or Slutskaya. I could see her being placed above Cohen, and probably would have somewhere else, but it wasnt like she was much better. She landed less triples than all of Kwan, Cohen, and Slutskaya, who each had 6 to her 5, her spins are nowhere near Sasha or Irina, her spirals and field moves in that program nowhere near Sasha or Michelle, and it wasnt like she had a convincing or commanding presentation that day. Her Worlds performance was much better, and even there it was a distant 3rd.
She was hosed in the short program though. I cant believe 3 judges had her out of the top 10. That is nuts. It is funny to see 5 of the 9 judges and thus a majority had her below Meier, but I guess because Meier ended up below Robinson who was already below Suguri that saved her going below Meier. The 2006 Worlds was the first time I ever noticed Meier, so she must have been super inconsistent over the years to have skated that well in SLC SP quite young and been largely unnoticeable for years to come.
Back to thread topic and the current Fumie I am going to predict this coming season will be her last in competitive elite, but she will go into adult skating competitions in the future. Does anyone think she might try show show skating or choreography? Does she have any plans outside skating for the future. It is sad she missed her potentially best pro skating years to chase impossible dreams it seems.
I am so looking forward to the tenth anniversary bump of this thread.