From Russia With Love - Winter 2012/13

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Nov 27, 2012.

  1. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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    I too dont know anything about this Gosvianai :confused:, who is she ? has she been to a JGP? never heard of her
    Gosviani's FS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOTSQj3L2m0, her jump technique looks iffy and prone to UR's

    Polina K. is just so inconsistent you dont know what to expect from her.
  2. Kasey

    Kasey Loving on babies!

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    Um, some people make no sense on a pretty regular basis anyway. Just saying.
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  3. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    I seem to be posting and re-posting the link to the ISU bio of Nikol Gosviani ;):
    http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00010707.htm
    She competed in one JGP in Japan (7th) and Coupe de Nice as a junior (3rd) in the fall of 2010.

    I'm glad she's getting the chance to earn the minimum scores to compete at Euros.
  4. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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  5. DaiKozOda

    DaiKozOda Active Member

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    I have to confess that I'm a little disappointed with the russian federation decision of not giving Menshov the chance of going to the european championships. He has been skating with a lot of consistency this season and he finished in third place in the nationals. I can even understand that Kovtun is really promising and has the support of people like Tatiana Tarasova (which I believe is still very important and influent in russian figure skating) but Menshov earned it.
    According to Maxim Trankov's twitter, the rest of the russian skaters aren't comfortable with this decision either. You can read the news here: http://rt.com/sport/menshov-kovtun-trankov-revolt-009/
    I don't have a twitter account so I don't know where to find the original Trankov's message. But in that news link he is quoted as posting "The coaching council is garbage!!! All the athletes stand by Menshov. Without exception" :watch:
  6. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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  7. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    I kind of hope Russia manages to get a second spot and Menshov gets to go to
    Sochi with Plush. Their combined ages would be over 60 years old... a total void. :D
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  8. DaiKozOda

    DaiKozOda Active Member

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    :rofl:
  9. Lyinna

    Lyinna Member

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    It's so sad for Menshov. He deserves his place, he was very consistent in his GPs! Kovtun will have a lot of other opportunities to go to Euros.
  10. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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  11. SamuraiK

    SamuraiK Well-Known Member

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  12. SamuraiK

    SamuraiK Well-Known Member

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    I dont think anyone hates Kovtun rathern than they are showing support for Menshov who is admired by lots of russian sakters for keep trying this long and never giving up on competition and now that he earns a spot he's snubbed. I do agree its unfortunate for Maxim to be in this situation too.
  13. quiqie

    quiqie Well-Known Member

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  14. zotza

    zotza Active Member

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    It looks like Kovtun himself supports Menshov through his twitter.I really respect him for this
  15. Finnice

    Finnice Well-Known Member

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    Wow, :hat1:for Kovtun! It is interesting if the skaters dare to disagree with the Russian federation.
  16. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Via Google Translate: http://translate.google.com/transla...e-katanie-nesportivnyi-printcip-otbora-327122
    Figure skating: unsportsmanlike principle of selection
    The outcome of the championship of Russia figure skating has become the national team to participate in the European Championship. Petersburgers Konstantin Menshov prefer Muscovite Maxim Kovtun. Experts speculate whether there seen "intrigues" on the part of the capital region.
    By Irina Vasilieva
    Original article in Russian: http://www.baltinfo.ru/2012/12/28/Figurnoe-katanie-nesportivnyi-printcip-otbora-327122

    Lakernik: http://www.itar-tasskuban.ru/news/article?type=sport&i=36783
    Piseev on Gachinski and Leonova: http://news.sport-express.ru/2012-12-28/557784/ and http://rsport.ru/figure_skating/20121228/637478293.html
    Tarasova on Kovtun: http://rsport.ru/figure_skating/20121228/637503497.html
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2012
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  17. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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    If Kovtun HIMSELF supports Menshov
    then that's the end of story

    Menshov is sooo underrated, He has skated more consistently
    and his PCS are higher than Voronov's Internationally, Voronov's National PCS was a joke
  18. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    Menshov may have good skates and been around a while but he not really podium material. Just this year he only got 4th at both grand prix competitions, didn't make it to the GPF and got 3rd by less than 2 and a half points at nationals. Kovtun won everything this year and was less than 2 and a half points away from a senior medal. If the top two are a lock to go and the third is picked because of who can do best, they picked the right guy. They have a much bigger picture to look at and Menshov just isn't that good to keep taking chances on him.

    The third spot is up for grabs and they knew it, winning third doesnÂ’t guarantee you will be picked. Supporting a skater if fine but when it's at the expense of dragging another one down is not good. As far as Trankov is concerned, he put himself in that situation, no one else did.

    :rofl:
  19. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

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    Looking at the protocol, I'm surprised that Kovtun got the nod. In the SP, he stepped out of his quad and fell on the lutz and so had no combo. In the FS, he landed a quad but did only one two-jump combo. Not exactly a sterling performance.

    Sure, he did great in the JGP---where he didn't have much competition. But he wasn't outstanding at Russian Nationals, and at the World Team Trophy last year, he was last.

    Maybe Menshov isn't podium material, but I don't see that Kovtun is either, at least not in Senior competition.
  20. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

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    ITA agree with your post, julieann, but its important to remember that Menshov for as long as he's been around has only been assigned to 1 Euros (placed 7th) and never Worlds. So this would actually only be his 2nd shot at a major championship. Voronov has been to 4 Euros (4th, 9th, 14th, 10th), and 5 Worlds (19th, 7th, 13th, 14th, and 17th). Sergei is probably the most historically disappointing of all the guys, although he keeps doing well at Nationals so what can you really do? I bet if he finishes out of top 10 at Euros, he won't be sent to Worlds this time though.

    I don't have a strong opinion either way on this matter, except that Menshov could probably use a haircut. :rofl: Then again so could Voronov, Gachinski, Kolyada, etc...all those long hair mops are just terrible.
  21. DaiKozOda

    DaiKozOda Active Member

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    At the Cup of Russia, Menshov competed with Chan, Kozuka and Brezina only finished ahead of him by less than a point. At Skate America he competed against Hanyu, Kozuka and a suprising Machida and if we only look at names he beat Verner, Brezina and Abbott. He did beat Brezina again at the NRW Trophy. At the Nebelhorn Trophy Menshov was only second to Oda. Kovtun competed in the JUNIOR circuit and it's true that he is very good but moving to seniors is a totally different story.
  22. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Last edited: Dec 28, 2012
  23. joeperryfan

    joeperryfan Well-Known Member

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    You hit the nail on the head, moving to seniors is a big deal. The point of sending Kovtun is not that he can place higher than Menshov, it's that he needs the international exposure on the senior circuit and it will be of good use to him in the future. Menshov did well on the GP circuit, but would you expect him to medal at Euros?
  24. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    Seniors is obviously much different; but enough jr. skaters have proven they can do it and Menshov hasn't been to Worlds either and the best he's done at Euros was 7th. If your only argument is that Menshov's competition from Japan and Canada was too tough and he 'almost' beat Brezina who also couldn't make the GPF, if we go by 'amosts' most podiums would have different people on them. It's not like they picked Dmitriev or Bush.
  25. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    It should have been within Gachinski's capabilities to balance out Voronov's awful efforts in Nice, but it was a combined effort that lost the spots.

    According to Eislauffan, at Nationals either Mishin or Plushenko (I'm not sure to which "he" Eislauffan was referring) said Plushenko might compete at Worlds if his condition is good.

    According to Anna Kondaurova's Ladies SP article on goldenskate, which Sylvia posted today, she was injured and had a growth spurt which has affected her balance.

    Makarova has yet to make the Worlds TES FS minimum, and unless there are so few qualifiers that the ISU adjusts the minimum down enough for her to qualify, she'd still have to compete at Senior B's until she made it.
  26. DaiKozOda

    DaiKozOda Active Member

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    My post comes in sequence with someone saying that Menshov "only" got 4th at his GP events. He faced a very difficult set of oponents there and showed he's competitive finishing ahead of some other skaters that have had a much better international career than him, namely Brezina, Abbott, Verner, etc. And it's a fact that he missed the podium at the COR for less than a point.
    Besides it's not a matter of that being my only argument or anybody else here that thinks Menshov earned his place for the euros. He finished ahead of Kovtun in the nationals and is having a nice season with consistent skates in the events he participated yet he was dropped by his own federation. That's the thing.
  27. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    Getting third doesn't guarantee you a spot on the team. I'm paraphrasing what Valentin Piseev said "Who prevented him from getting second place?"

    He's had plenty of years to set a precedence on his getting chosen. Kovtun only lost by less than 2.50, I would rather put my future team especially since how well he did in the beginning of the season-all golds. If he tanks, send Menshov but there is no reason to doubt their choice. I think it's a real shitty thing to do to a especially by your fellow skaters.
  28. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

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    If Kovtun needs international exposure on the Senior circuit, then send him to a bunch of international "B"s.

    He's had two exposures to Seniors so far (WTT and Russian Nats) and he hasn't been up to the competition. Send him to Euros and Worlds when he's earned it. He sure didn't earn it at 2013 RN.
  29. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Kovtun is ranked 41st now, with a few Internationals before Euros. Of the skaters who are likely to compete at Euros, he should be in the Top 10, and I can't see him dropping below Top 12. Starting order for the SP shouldn't be an issue for him. Menshov doesn't even have that advantage over him, despite being ranked 13th. Voronov (44) should make Top 12, and even Plushenko might squeeze in. I didn't realize how heavily the WS were skewed towards 4C's eligible skaters, even if the majority of them can't compete due to per-country limits. Only Russian Men are affected by this for the Top 12 at Euros.
  30. babayaga

    babayaga Active Member

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    And who prevented Kovtun from placing second or even third? He hasn't even competed at the senior level yet, he skated poorly both SP and LP at Nationals and still he is chosen for the team over the third place finisher who was consistent at GP series. Kovtun did not earn his spot and he got a gift from TAT. Tarasova's ambition is behind this decision.
  31. rfisher

    rfisher Satisfied skating fan

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    I doubt that an individual skater's earned rights had anything to do with the decision. I suspect there is a great deal of pressure on the Russian skating fed to produce Olympic medals next year. :bribe: for facilities, coaches and skater support may well be decided based on their results. That coaching panel looked beyond Europeans next month and decided where were the best places to put their assets. If the Olympics weren't next winter and weren't in Russia, I suspect there would have been no issues here. I don't blame them. I'd have made the same choice. Menshov could have beaten Voronov, and secured his spot, but he didn't. Voronov and Kovtun may well tank at Europeans and the fed will go with Menshov for Worlds. It remains to be seen what will happen. Who knows but Menshov might skate at Sochi one more time if Russia gets a 2nd spot. I think that would be awesome, but the fed will send the skaters they think have the best chance of a medal regardless of who they are.
  32. babayaga

    babayaga Active Member

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    I don't get it. Why is Kovtun considered the second best skater in Russia all of the sudden? Why all the other skaters are supposed to prove they are worthy by beating each other and placing second and if they don't it's automatically Kovtun who is replacing them? Can anyone explain? I only see one reason - Tarasova and her influence.
  33. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Interesting, I didn't know that either. I wonder why that would be. Didn't people used to complain that the world standings favored Euro skaters, because of the points available for winning a senior B, of which most are held in Europe? I guess the 4CC skaters have the advantage of sending 3 skaters per country no matter what (whereas at Euros the countries have to earn spots) to pick up a few championship points but could that make such a difference? Or maybe it's that you can only count points for one championship per season, and many of the 4CC countries send a different set of skaters to 4CC and Worlds.
  34. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

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    Kovtun got all golds in JUNIOR competition. And in his junior events, he didn't get the huge PCS scores he got at RN.

    6.79 6.46 6.82 6.68 6.71 JGPF SP: stepout on the 3fe; all else clean
    7.82 7.57 7.64 8.00 7.86 RN SP: turnout on 4t, 3z↓, no combo

    7.14 6.71 7.21 7.04 6.89 JGPF FS: 4t+3t, 3a+3t, 3z, 3a, 3lo, 3fe, 3s+2t
    8.14 7.93 8.18 8.32 8.07 RN FS: 3s, 3t, 4t, 3a, 3lo, 3z, 3s+2t, 2a

    Kovtun was clearly held up on his PCS scores in both SP and FS at RN, or he would have finished much lower than fifth. Amazing that Tarasova holds that much influence over Russian judges.
  35. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Does Kovtun have another primary coach in addition to Tarasova? I didn't think she got so involved with individual skaters anymore; thought she was supposed to be more of a consultant to the entire team.
  36. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Elena Buianova, she coaches Sotnikova and Zaseeva as well, CSKA club. TAT is his secondary coach.
  37. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

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    International vs. national PCS have no significance. Kovtun finished 15 points ahead of Sezganov who was 6th at Nationals. I'm not sure one can make the claim that Kovtun finished too high at Nationals. I think he and his skating is being vilified to make a point.
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  38. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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    the thing is with Kovtun is they are plucking him prematurely for Seniors considering the state of Russian men
    he is a 2018 skater along with other younger Russian kids like Petrov and Samarin

    they are investing too much and putting all their eggs on Kovtun ? now where have we seen that before
    they should invest on the other kids too
    Samarin has nice flow on his jumps, 3lz-3T is solid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVFjS8Maa0w
    Petrov can get consistent on his 3A as he is only 13 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7Qi5733yHM
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2012
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  39. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    I don't think the three-per-country rule impacts the Men, because, at least recently, Japan, the US, and Canada would have earned three spots anyway, and the Chinese two most years, along with Kazakstan (Denis Ten). While the top European men may consistently beat all but the top US and Canadian men and the lesser-ranked Japanese Men and all of the Chinese Men, there's just not a lot of depth in European Men's skating, and a couple of 4ths alone in Senior B's won't cut it when the same men -- Amodio, Joubert, Verner, Brezina, Contesti and Van der Perren (until they retired), Fernandez, and, until he was injured, Schultheiss -- get multiple GP's and championship spots, along with a Senior B warm-up or two, racking up the rankings points along the way. There's usually a skater or two behind them, but not a big field.

    The US and Men, and apart from Chan, the Canadian Men might not be winning medals, but they do well enough at Worlds and 4C's to get GP events for Top 12 Worlds, Top 24 SB and WS, plus there are host spots. The Chinese Men have their host spots and 4C's, and the Japanese Fed has been assigning more of their competitive mid-rank skaters to Senior B's and has spread the 4C's wealth (until this year, with 4C's in Japan) to get more skaters those Top 24 SB scores. Senior B's are now more universally important for making minimum championships TES scores as well. The Russian Men have been more in the US Men's shape when Plushenko doesn't skate: intermittent brilliance, but a lot of mid-pack skating that earns GP and last spots at championships, in addition to host picks.
  40. Kasey

    Kasey Loving on babies!

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    It's not a matter of people not liking Kovtun; it's a matter that, he didn't earn this gift from TAT. As others pointed out, he's done fine in JUNIOR events; shorter length of programs, fewer elements required. If he was really up to competing with the big guns, he would have beaten Menshov at nationals, but he didn't. He couldn't pull it out at his own nationals, where he (and most) get joke PCS scores and he has one of the most influential of coaches in his corner. He couldn't get the job done. So yes, send him to some senior B's for experience before next year and send the skater who has had a consistent, if not stellar, season to the Europeans that most fans and skaters feel he has earned. If Plush and Voronov are there to assure the three spots for next season and the third place person is just someone to go along, why the hell not Menshov? And if the third place person is only going for their own personal glory, again, why the hell not Menshov? He's earned it by working so hard and long to the point that he's a more complete and consistent skater now than he was 10 years ago. Let the old man have his damn glory. And let the kid earn his chance, like everyone else.
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