From Russia With Love - Winter 2012/13

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Nov 27, 2012.

  1. DaiKozOda

    DaiKozOda Active Member

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    Stolbova & Klimov are in the lead at the Bavarian Open. They got 59.84 for their SP. Their triple twist got a negative GOE but the rest was ok.
    Antipova & Maisuradze are in close second place with 59.74. They messed up in the side by side triple toes. They got a better TES than Stolbova & Klimov but lost to them on the PCS.
    It will be interesting to see how things will turn in the LP
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2013
  2. alchemy void

    alchemy void it's time for the perkolator

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    Reading the last page of this thread has made my already prevalent headache, so so so much more worse. :wall:

    Leonova going back to an old program isn't surprising, but I was hoping she'd go back to her voidy Witches of Eastwick LP from two seasons back. Oh well.
     
  3. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Do you think Gosviani deserve to beat Leonova at Nationals?

    I wish S&K got more love from the judges. They're my favorite Russian pair. :( I know they don't have the best skating skills, but being almost beaten by a brand new team, who made a mistake, while they were clean, is pretty harsh.

    Yes! Or Chicago. Remind everyone why they liked you in the first place!
     
  4. elka_sk8

    elka_sk8 Well-Known Member

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    Well you say "dumped" like it was unfair. Leonova only has herself to blame, if she had a better season they may have looked past her finishing behind Gosviani at Nats. But she didn't. And as you say, she finished behind a "jgp reject" of all things. :drama: So get over it.
     
  5. bek

    bek Guest

    Casey, did you actually watch Russian Nationals, and look at the scores there. Because looking at how Alena skated and how Leonova was scored, I fail to see an example of the Russian judges dumping Alena. Leonova was giving ridiculously high PCS for this performance and had about 8 points higher than PCS on Gosviani
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zTcbf4t0Lo

    Now Leonova's PCS will right now be higher than Gosviani's even with a bad skate. But she's normally not going to get anywhere near the 64.24 she got for that particular skate internationally.

    And I will point out that if you were to put a paper bag over both girls heads http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0pz7QwHFdw

    Gosviani would get higher PCS if no reputation was factored in.

    I fail to see how the Russian federation dumped Leonova, she was scored very generously. And I think if she does well at Russian Cup, they will put her on the World team because I think they'd rather have someone experienced at the Qualifiers for the Olympics. However, they also absolutely have the right to consider their young talent, and the thing is Gosviani does have talent. Its hard for younger skaters to get into the international field given Russia's depth. Leonova got to get out there when the Russian field was weak. However its in their interest to give their skaters some chances. I'm sure they were thinking Gosviani has some talent, and they don't know yet which young skaters will last and which young skaters won't. So why not let her go to Europeans, we can test her out. See how she handles the pressure, and then also let her earn some points towards GPS..

    It also sends Leonova the message too, that its time to get her butt in gear. She may be world Silver medalist but she's been skating like crap all season long, and the Russians have a lot of young talent coming up. They have no reason to hold Leonova up. Considering Leonova has a good shot at making the World team, I fail to see how the Russian fed was so cruel or mean to her. If this was a fluke skate it would be one thing but its not.

    Personally I don't particularly enjoy Leonova's skating but I do think if she skates well at Russian Cup, they should send her to worlds because I think her experience could be useful, and She has delivered for them in the past. But giving the crap she's been skating like lately, I think its smart for the Russians to send Gosviani to Euros, see how she handles it. While also seeing if Leonova can get it together by around Worlds. Because you know what if Leonova is still skating like this by worlds, than she's not going to place well at all and they might be better of sending Gosviani.
     
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  6. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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    Antipova/Maisuradze almost beating Stolbova/Klimov ? :eek:
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2013
  7. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    I wasnt referencing the judges at the Russian nationals because all the skaters got higher scores. It was a nationals and everyone was inflated not just leonova. After nationals was over the federation made the decision to name ineligible gosviani over eligible leonova. They made a huge commitment to gosviani that said her nationals skate was good and therefore they would ignore all her pre-nationals performances and make her eligible for euros which also made her eligible for worlds potentially. So all the commitment for this season is now with gosviani so why after doing all his for gosviani would they even consider the results of cup of Russia final and say one good performance from leonova there potentially negates her whole bad season. They did it with gosviani for euros but leonova for worlds just seems unlikely at this point. So does a good performance from leonova as she has more riding on this competition than any in her past. The idea that his time off will automatically make her great is kind of strange. I don't know why her season was so bad but nothing indicates she will skate well at cup of Russia final or it would matter if she did do well. They have already made such a huge effort to get gosviani to euros and put her on the euros team. It's true what others write hat the team for 2014 is going to be sotnikova/Liza/Julia and Liza and sotnikova didn't need leonova at euros as some kind of captain or something.
     
  8. bek

    bek Guest

    There's inflating someone's scores, and there's inflating someone's scores. Niki Pcs at Euros (and for a worse skate I believe) she got a 52.97 and a 55.83 at Russian Nationals. Whereas Leonova got a 64.24 in Pcs when at Skate America 57.25 she got at Cup of Russia 53.54 at Skate America. At worlds where she won the Silver medal with a GOOD skate she got 59.10...

    Leonova's PCS at Russian Nationals were ridiculous. I don't think Niki's for her skate at Russians Nationals was.

    And once again, investing in Niki, I don't see this huge investment. They wanted to give her the opportunity for Europeans, and I suspect wanted to send Leonova a message too. They probably saw it as a good opportunity to spread the wealth.

    The Russian judges spotted Leonova about a 10 point advantage at Russian Nationals, and that 10 point advantage wasn't really because she was a better skater but because of her rep.. The coaches council probably figured if Leonova couldn't over come that combined with her bad season, Niki probably deserved something...
     
  9. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Well if you doubt investment in gosviani it's certainly effort and going out of their way at this particular moment to get her to competitions instead of leonova.

    Tuktamisheva got 66 pcs and that was 11 points above her highs in gp.

    The judges had their favorites but the federation said they were wrong and have made their own choices and said no leonOva even though she could go to euros and gosviani couldn't when she was named.
     
  10. bek

    bek Guest

    Tuk skated well. Leonova did not. The point is Leonova's huge PCS hardly showcase a plan on the Russian fed's part to dump her. Rather it suggest she was one of the favorites.

    As for going out of their way, I think its rather they felt Gosviani has promise (she after all can do much harder jump layouts than Leonova) and felt that she deserved a shot at least getting the minimum.

    If this particular skate was a fluke, I think the Russian Fed might very well have named Leonova anyways. But Leonova's been skated horribly all season long, something that you conveniently forget.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 9, 2013
  11. Autumn_girl

    Autumn_girl Active Member

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    I remember some of the officials interview when the Euros team was named. There were words like "Sending Leonova now means throwing her into the breach. She doesn't have time to get prepared for Euros considering her current shape". I guess that makes sense. Have the same happened in the country like USA, she would be out of Euros/4CC AND Worlds team immediately. Now Alena has a chance for Worlds, but of course she has to skate well for that, nothing wrong with that. To be honest, I think Gosviani deserved to be above Leonova at Nationals by 10 points at least, not 1-2, because she skated very well with 3-3 in both programs while Leonova barely landed anything
     
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  12. elka_sk8

    elka_sk8 Well-Known Member

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    It's not like she was underage and they faked her birth certificate to make her eligible. All she had to do was compete at an international event to get the TES minimum. Big difference and I don't understand why you keep harping on it. Honestly, even if they had named Leonova to Euros (or name her to Worlds) I'm sure they would have wanted Gosviani eligible as an alternate.
     
  13. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Does anyone know what is the name of Serafima Sakhanovich SP music? I know it from somewhere and it keeps playing in my head...
     
  14. ChelleC

    ChelleC Well-Known Member

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    "Once Upon a December" It's from the soundtrack to the animated movie Anastasia. You probably remember Tara Lipsinski skating to the music back in 1997-98.
     
  15. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Thank you! I knew I remember it from somewhere!
     
  16. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    I didn't forget and I have been mentioning it myself! I was just about the eligibility for euros factor.

    Gosviani can do a harder 3/3 than 3t/3t but really they're about equal.

    The quote seems like its familiar but not sure what kind of poor shape she is in considering everything. She landed 5 triples falling on triple toe and singling flip and now she's having problems with 2a again.

    The issue of the euros spot is just relevant to leonovas true chances for worlds which are really none.
     
  17. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Why is that relevant?

    What are you talking about?

    Two skaters skate against each other. The better skater gets sent to Worlds. The pressure is pretty equal.

    SCENARIO WHERE LEONOVA IS SENT TO WORLDS: SHE SKATES BETTER THAN GOSVIANI

    Jesus Christ, I really want to believe you're just trolling.

    And this exactly the point.
     
  18. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    Is there a livestream for this all important comp?
     
  19. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Well, they could always sent Irina Slutskaya to worlds if they don't want to send Gosviani and Leonova is still rubbish. (They would have to sent her to any competition first to get the qualifying score though). She still seems to have her triples. Slutskaya would even beat Pluschenko with her age. :lol:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=_x7Mw65WtTM&feature=endscreen

    ETA: just noticed that the link has already been sent in the Trash can. Sorry for repeating the link.
     
  20. Autumn_girl

    Autumn_girl Active Member

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    I remember not so long ago I turned TV on and there was some skating show, a girls was skating. I didn't recognize her and thought it was Leonova first, but the girl was more graceful and better streched, and then they showed her closer and I was amazed it was actually Slutskaya! She did 3Lo and 2A I think and skated very well, I liked her even more than when she was a competitive skater. I think she is gorgeous!
     
  21. bek

    bek Guest

    In what sense? I've frankly never been on the Leonova bandwagon. She is neither a great artist, she doesn't have great stretch, great presentation, nor is she a great jumper. I haven't seen her live but I haven't heard she has this great speed/ etc (basic skater Irina was)The one thing I will give her credit is she knows how to perform a program and has charisma but that's about it. I feel as a skater she's benefited from being the only age eligible skater of a powerful federation who could land a certain number of jumps. This factor gave her political PCS that I'm of the opinion she would not have if she was let's say from a nation like S. Korea, Sweden etc.

    In contrast Gosvani is a much more pleasant skater in terms of stretch, line (if not the performer Leonova is) and has harder jumper content. The only issue she wasn't as consistent as Leonova but she's younger and this is changing. In this sense its not at all clear Leonova's the one with the more potential as a skater. However at this point if Leonova skates well at the Russian Cup I would send her to worlds on the basis of how much Leonova has delivered in the past for them....

    In the case of Leonova's shape. I can't help wonder what you watched. Leonova fell twice in that program and had other step outs, issues two besides the falls. She was frankly a mess. She's been a mess all season so the Russian's seriously asking "what kind of shape is she in" makes total sense. Once again if she was America, Leonova would have no shot at even Worlds. However the Russians wisely split their assignments in this kind of case which means everyone has a shot at winning. The Russians give Gosviani the opportunity to win some points/earn spots for next year. But give them the option of sending the more experienced skater to worlds, and the more experienced skater the option of getting in better shape.

    Your argument that Gosviani deserves to be just "out" in this case is frankly unfair. And I'd point out Gosviani has done well at her assignments. If Leonova continues to skate how she's been skating, thanthe federation would be wise to send her to worlds over Gosviani. Its not fair to hold a skater up based on previous results, when you have the type of young talent Russia has, and said skater has not produced any good results for a whole season.....
     
  22. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    So would you have sent Leonova to Euros, and then Gosviani to Worlds (if Gosviani got the TES minimums in the meantime and Leonova skated poorly at Euros)?

    The problem I see with that is that Leonova was skating very poorly up to and including Nationals and there wasn't much reason to think it would change by Euros. Giving her more time to recover for Worlds makes more sense IMO. And sending Gosviani to Euros was important to see how she could skate at a championship and how she would be received by the judges. Leonova doesn't need another Euros; she's been several times. Sending Gosviani to Worlds without the Euros experience would be pointless, too big of a risk. IMO the way it was done makes sense because now they have two legitimate contenders for the Worlds spot, but that is where you and I differ, because I still think Leonova has a decent shot at it.
     
  23. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Wow 3flip and 3loop at 35-years of age. Great height on them too. Slutskaya is awesome. :)
     
  24. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    She could have won last year's Worlds, perhaps ;) with those jumps. I'll bet she can manage 3t and 3s as well.
     
  25. bek

    bek Guest

    I think Leonova has more than a decent shot. I think if she skates well at the test skate, she's on the team. I highly doubt the Russian fed would rather send a newbie with little international reputation, over the reigning World Silver medalist... I'm sure Adelina, Tukt, and Leonova was always the preferred team.

    However, Leonova right now is skating extremely poorly and the Russian federation would be foolish if they ignored this. Especially since they have a skater like Gosviani who is talented and has higher technical content than Leonova....

    I see sending Gosviani to Euros was a, "we don't know if Leonova is going to get her act together by worlds, so we better prepare for a plan B." And its also because they do have so many young talented skaters, and they still probably don't know which ones will survive puberty, which ones won't, which ones are good under pressure, which ones aren't. So why not send this one and see how she does?

    Right now there's so much talent in Russia, that the Russians don't need to hold anyone up. I'm sure they want to find a way to give out as many assignments as possible too for the reason I suggested. The USFSA didn't send Wagner to Four Continents either....It doesn't mean they don't support Ashley. Its just they want to invest in all of their girls.
     
  26. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    It was relevant because it was a fact that leonova could go but gosviani couldn't

    Talking about how great leonova has to be at the cup final that must be equal to or greater than how she skated at 2012 worlds. She can fall or single or double a jump? No

    It's not equal pressure- that's ridiculous to say . Leonova has to redeem a whole season and be better than when she won silver at worlds and gosviani at this point has the federation


    I have liked the past two or 3 seasons of free skates of leonova and on jumps gosviani has a harder 3/3 but is not so superior to leonova.

    No one cares and the federation really didn't care that leonova was eligible for euros and gosviani wasn't and now gosviani is eligible for worlds having already been the pick for euros....


    I would have sent leonova to euros and maybe gosviani to worlds because I don't really think someone gets better in competitions when they are prevented from competing. If she bombed euros than if gosviani got eligibility for worlds at the nesquik cup she could have gone to worlds. Because than she would have been eligible and it wouldn't have been so quick to ends leonovas season- I think prematurely. Now it's over anyway outside Russia and it's all gosviani
     
  27. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Jesus Christ, is caseyedwards by any chance Leonova's mother, grandmother or her boyfriend? In any case, caseyedwards seem to be unable to listen to any reason, so I think we should try to stop discussing this topic because it doesn't seem to be leading anywhere. I don't think Leonova was dumped, in fact she was held up at the nationals, but we are not going to persuade caseyedwards, so let's stop talking about it. Hopefully caseyedwards will stop too if no one is going to bite.
     
  28. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    You are talking about her being held up at nationals by judges when that is irrelevant to what the federation did with the euros team announcement and gosviani being named when she couldn't even go. And I was asked some questions so I was going to reply.
     
  29. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    I know you are joking...BUT...she couldn't even manage a true combo in that number. She looks AMAZING for 35, but no way could she have beaten Kostner last year.

    As to the other critcism, that the 80s called and wanted it's winning jump content back, it was VERY rare that a ladies skater in the 80s showed 4 types of triples. Kostner showed 4 types of triples at worlds last year. (Which, btw, is all that Kim showed to win the Olympics.) Manley, Ito, occaisionally Trenary (maybe once or twice in a major championship) and possibly Witt in 83 or 84, but not after that. And of those four ladies, only Ito ever showed a 3-3 combo, which would have been necessary keep pace with Kostner in the SP.

    Normally I wouldn't hijack a thread like this, but this thread belongs at a glue factory if you know what I mean.
     
  30. bek

    bek Guest

    Gosviani COULD go if she met the minimum requirements. Her federation gave her the opportunity to earn them which she did. And the federation did it partly because of how Leonova has skated. If Leonova had finished ahead of Gosviani, there would have been I bet no discussion.

    If you want to start this argument than you have to argue that two years ago it was unfair to provisionally name V/T to the World team, because they hadn't yet met the requirements. Gosviani hadn't had the opportunity to yet either.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 9, 2013