From Russia With Love - Winter 2012/13

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Nov 27, 2012.

  1. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    At most, the World silver medalist was dumped provisionally for someone who was not yet eligible. Had Gosviani not delivered in Warsaw and made her Euros TES minimums, then she wouldn't have been eligible.
     
  2. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    I think the choice was not only fair, but also moral! Vagabond, you seem to overlook that the silver world medallist actually skated the whole season so badly that she was beaten by ladies who are much lower in world standings, such as Korpi (4), Sotnikova (7), Wagner (10), Marchei (11), Murakami (12), Meite (13), Zawadsky (19), Imai (21), Gao (24), and Gold (29) - in commas I listed the world standings of ladies that beat the silver world medallist during the GP events (Standings as of: 2/4/2013 12:03:47 AM). We are not talking about Leonova having one off bad event, we are talking about her skating badly the whole season and being beaten by ladies who are 19th, 21st, 24th and 29th in world standings! I don't think that should happen to silver world medallist and when it does, then the skater deserves to stay home and not be sent to Europeans. And to top it all, she was beaten by a skater who was third substitute to their own nationals. I think that should be pretty embarrassing for her!
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2013
  3. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Vagabond was talking about the men's selection as a moral choice, and Menshov not only beat Kovtun fairly at Russian Nationals, he also had a stronger GP season than Leonova.
     
  4. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I did not mean to address it to Vagabond, that was for caseyedwards. I don't think Leonova was dumped. I think she just did not earn it. As soon as she starts delivering, she will be sent, so she actually wasn't dumped. Being dumped in my opinion means not to be sent even when you deserve it because you have been delivering at competitions. Leonova wasn't delivering.
     
  5. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    I don't know which is more bizarre -- confusing Konstantin Menshov with Alena Leonova, or me with caseyedwards. :eek: :yikes: :scream:
     
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  6. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    At the time of the announcement of the Euros team the top three eligible for Euros were Tuktamisheva, Sotnikova and Leonova. That was who was eligible for Euros. The federation went right over Leonova and announced Gosviani would be on the team and they would make her eligible. The ISU entry lists for Euros said Gosviani* with asterisk meaning not eligible yet. It wasn't even an open spot. They just went out there and Leonova just doesn't really exist anymore.
     
  7. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Well there's different types of eligibility. Leonova was not in the top 3 for age-eligibility. Age is immutable. Being ineligible due to lack of a minimum tech score is a temporary status with a simple solution. Gosviani hadn't even had an opportunity to compete in several years, so it's not like they gave the spot to someone who has been skating so poorly internationally that she couldn't make the score. It makes more sense to put Gosviani with an asterisk for Euros, and WD her if she doesn't make the score, than to put Leonova on the team, and then WD her for Gosviani once she made the score at Nesquik.

    Being that Leonova was behind Gosviani at Nationals, I don't feel like they skipped over her because she didn't earn the spot. It was a huge diss though, because Russia of all federations is usually the one to look past Nationals and put the veteran on the team. It was a message to Leonova that her results this season were crap and there's too much talent now for her to rest on her laurels, even from as recently as last season.
     
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  8. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    I don't know that the problem with Leonova that she stopped trying. "Rest on her laurels" is there proof of that?

    Leonova was not in the top 3 of age eligibility she was in the top 3 of eligibilty for Euros.

    Because Gosviani had such terrible results domestically she couldn't get assigned anything internationally.

    But it was a huge diss and it was dumping. It's the clearest example of dumping in years and she's not going to worlds either. I think that's settled.
     
  9. misskarne

    misskarne #ForzaJules #KeepFightingMichael

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    Gachinski almost never tweets but this time it was very interesting!

    With thanks and :lol: to Google Translate:

    https://twitter.com/ArturGachinski/status/299825066361892865 (I assume Google Translate has erroneously inserted "horses" for "boots"?)

    https://twitter.com/ArturGachinski/status/299825277490585600


    https://twitter.com/ArturGachinski/status/299825452799897600


    And he posted this on his vkontak (sp?) thingo:

    http://vk.com/gachinski?w=wall-25794040_558%2F4117ed7ac267adec69


    Seems to indicate that the skate-off is still on.
     
  10. equatorial

    equatorial New Member

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    IIRC, his programmes were hastily put together in July after he had been kicked out from Morosov's camp.
     
  11. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    Leonova dumped herself with her performances, sadly.

    It's as though all her confidence came from knowing she would have the full support of her federation at international competitions. Once this was siphoned off to Sotnikova and Tuk, she decided all was lost and let it all go.

    That's how it seems to me. I really did enjoy the energy and flair she brought to her performances, and the way she would attempt 7 triples somethings, even if she flutzed.

    Good bye to the pirate, hello to wonder babies.
     
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  12. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Nope. In your head maybe. To most people it seems only fair that a skater who hasn't had a single good competition so far this season isn't sent to Euros.

    If Leonova performs well at the Russian Cup and Gosviani doesn't, Leonova will surely get sent to Worlds.
     
  13. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    The Eurosport guys agreed, saying he was totally a junior, commented about his lack of presentation, at least in the first part of the FS, but his PCS of 72+ suggest otherwise so, if they are going to give him marks like that for empty programs where he jumps to background music, then, well, there's not really a reason for him to change what he's doing seeing as he's being rewarded for it. As long as he lands the big tricks, which he has been doing very consistently this season, the judges will reward him for his jumping and the emptiness of his programs and disconnect between his skating and the music will be overlooked. Even at the JGPF, he got the highest PCS of the field in the FS, and that was against the likes of much more musical skaters like Brown, Tanaka, and Farris, but they all made mistakes while Kovtun was clean with all his jumps including 4t-3t and his great 3a. So basically, he's fine as long as he lands his jumps. I suspect though he might get Nan Song treatment in that, should he be off with his jumps at a given competition, the PCS and total scores will drop significantly. But I don't see that happening at Worlds, his technique is so solid and he's been on a roll this whole season.
     
  14. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Yes and I think it's pretty certain Kovtun is going to Worlds. Unless he bombs at Russian Cup but he's been super consistent all season and it's Gachinski, Menshov and Voronov who will probably be doing the bombing. :p

    Leonova and Gosviani are much more uncertain. Leonova is a trooper and I wouldn't be surprised if she put herself together, finally. Gosviani, on the other hand, will be under huge pressure to perform well. Will she deal with it? Not the positions she's been in before.

    Russian Cup will be very exciting. :)
     
  15. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Is it for sure that all of these skaters will perform at Russian Cup? I thought perhaps the fed might compare the skating displayed at Russian Cup to that performed at Euros by Kovtun and Gosviani.
     
  16. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    The three pair of K/S, B/L and S/K are going as well. I guess it's always good to have extra competitons even if you don't go to worlds.
     
  17. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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  18. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Leonova was the one eligible for euros when the team was announced- gosviani wasn't

    Leonova is under far more pressure than gosviani- its not even close- leonova cant make one mistake in any way and her performance has to be better than gosvianis at euros and equal to or better than her 2012 worlds performance.

    There is no scenario where leonova is sent to worlds
     
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  19. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    This seems relevant to you, since you keep repeating it, but it was relevant neither to the Russian Fed nor the ISU. In fact, the Russian Fed might have been impressed that not only did Gosviani make the Euros TES minimums at a last-minute junior event, she made one of the Worlds TES minimums and her other TES score may have met the new minimum. Talk about pressure: Gosviani didn't have any other events.to.fall back upon and she needed to prove at Torun and Zagreb that the Russian Fedd was right to appoint her. Perhaps they were impressed, and rightly so, since they had the qualified Leonova to fall back upon.

    In one way she is, but Gosviani is also under huge pressure.to get international experience.and help.built her reputuion, so she doesn't get buried by the wonder babies and so she can earn a GP assignment on her own. While it won't be great for her, Leonova can call this season a wash like other Worlds medalists who've had bad seasons -- Slutskaya, Suguri, Arakawa -- and focus on next season.
     
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  20. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    I know it wasnt relevent to the russian federation because of their dumping of leonova right after nationals.

    And gosviani is going to worls so she is going from rejected jrgp skater to euros and worlds because the test for leonova will be to be equal to or better than her worlds 2012 performance
     
  21. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    How do you figure she was dumped after the abysmal season she had?
     
  22. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Because she was third in line of euros eligibility when euro team was announced
     
  23. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    I actually think Leonova may end up getting it... but only if she shows improvements at Russian Cup.

    Leonova got 153.49 and 157.27 for terrible performances on the GP. Gosviani got 154.41 at Euros for a good LP combined with a poor SP. Gosviani wasn't known to the judges, and her scores for the sames skates would probably improve dramatically at Worlds because now she has a reputation. But Leonova's scores would also go up at Worlds if she skates better than she has been and also just because scores tend to go up during the season. They were also only separated by like a point at Nationals.

    People seem to prefer Gosviani's skating but Leonova has the bigger rep and she will get better PCS if she skates well and is more likely to be held up internationally if she does bomb, a luxury Gosviani doesn't have yet. She's also 3rd in WS so she'll draw for her SP within the last two groups, while Gosviani will go much earlier. So Leonova even with a mistake could theoretically end up higher than a clean Gosviani just due to the draw and name recognition. The Russian federation should be relying on Liza and Adelina to get 3 spots, not either of these two, but Leonova might be the better bet as in someone who has some leeway to make the top 10 even if she's not perfect.

    The other thing is, if the fed is looking to promote young skaters, is Gosviani one of them? If their dream team for Sochi is Julia/Liza/Adelina will they even bother to invest anything in her? I'm not saying it's fair, but I believe they think this way.
     
  24. Kasey

    Kasey Loving on babies!

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    Uh, yeah, so was Menshov. We all know how that played out, and he had a hell of a lot more consistant and better season internationally than Leonova.
     
  25. misskarne

    misskarne #ForzaJules #KeepFightingMichael

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    Gachinski's vkontakt post upthread definitely suggest that he, Menshov, Voronov and Kovtun will still skate off for the Worlds spot.

    Either way, even if Kovtun doesn't go, that would be too late for him to head to JW wouldn't it? Isn't that a little foolish of the RFSF?
     
  26. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    If you get rid of someone who was world silver medalist you can put more attention and more focus on Liza and Adelina and Julia. Just toss out everything previous to those two including Julia. They are future don't even factor in anyone else. So they don't even have to invest in gosviani just use her to put more focus on Liza and Adelina.

    Kovtun had eligibility for euros so skipping menshov for him wasn't skipping for someone who wasn't actually eligible.
     
  27. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    caseyedwards, your argument is getting a bit repetitive. You will have to get used to the fact that Leonova WAS beaten at senior nationals by Gosviani and that's why Gosviani was sent to Europeans. If Leonova skates well at the Russian Cup final, she may be sent to worlds; if she skates badly, the chances are that she won't be sent. No matter how much you like it or not. So you may post here another hundreds of posts about how unfair and immoral it was, but it is not going to change anything. Besides, the majority of posters here thinks it was not unfair.
     
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  28. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    I didn't say it was immoral. I get why it is happening and even with the nationals result it was a skater being dumped because of the when the third skater was named. Most of the people here because of who leonovas coach is and her programs would have not supported sending leonova anyway lol If she beat Gosviani by a point. The Russia cup final really doesn't matter in naming a skater to worlds.
     
  29. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    If Leonova had beaten Gosviani by .01, I.don't know who would be arguing that Gosviani should have been sent to Europeans. Leonova would have been sent, and then if continued to skate the way she's skated so far this season, there's no reason to think the international judges would't have dumped her.

    You're just not getting any traction by assuming that anything but Leonova's poor performance at Nationals, and then her early season weakness, which gave the Fed no reason to think her Nationals performance was a fluke were the reasons they didn't send her to Euros. The TES minimums were no sign of achievement or highly regarded by the Fed, especially the low Euros minimums, but a bureaucratic necessity.
     
  30. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    The International judges are never going to get the chance because that's been taken care of by the federation. I know everyone thinks that because gosviani beat Leonova the federation had a job to get her to euros and get her the minimums so she could skate no matter she couldn't get out of the country earlier because of how she was skating in domestic competitions pre nationals.