From Russia With Love - Winter 2012/13

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Nov 27, 2012.

  1. misskarne

    misskarne #ForzaJules #KeepFightingMichael

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    And so did Voronov. What did he do the last time out at Worlds? He flopped spectacularly and was partly responsible for Russia losing two spots.
     
  2. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

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    In any other sport that, if it really takes place, would be labelled "fixing" and there would be serious legal consequences. Why is FS exempt from this standard
     
  3. Domshabfan

    Domshabfan Well-Known Member

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    I will say it again :
    The rules that russian federation had in place states that (since they have 3 spots for euro) first two spots are decided using the results from the nationals, hence Plushy and Voronov. If Menshov wanted to get a spot he should have finished in the top 2, which he failed to do so. Third spot is decided by the coaches council, there they went narrowly in favour of Kovtun.
     
  4. misskarne

    misskarne #ForzaJules #KeepFightingMichael

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    My argument is not against the selection policy for Euros post-Nationals as regards Voronov; as silver medallist of course he should have gone.

    Your argument was that Menshov should not be given a chance because he "failed before" at Euros. Which looks pretty weak compared to what Voronov did at Worlds last year.
     
  5. bek

    bek Guest

    No the argument is that Menshov has had years to accomplish something in figure skating, and really hasn't. His scores in international skates hardly show he's never going to be a top skater.

    However the international judges are showing that they like Kovtun very much, and Kovtun is extremely young. He has the potential to be a star, and or has the most potentional at doing well.

    The coaches would rather invest in their young talent....Its not just Menshov's age, after all Plushenko's being sent. Its Menshov's accomplishments too. Once again Kovtun showed that the Coaches Council was right. He was Russia's top man at Euros
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 6, 2013
  6. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    That doesn't make Voronov look that good either! That he wasn't the top man at Euros. He was the silver medalist. He has won 2 GP medals in his senior career and placed 4th in the FS at 2008 worlds. So that's all he's done. He won silver at russian nationals so therefore he was in according to the selection rules but really Voronov is not doing well and I think this part of the thread was about Voronov and how his career really isn't that different from Menshovs.
     
  7. quiqie

    quiqie Well-Known Member

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    Interview with Vera Bazarova and Yuri Larionov, taken in Saransk at Russian Junior Championships: http://fsrussia.ru/news/433_vera-ba...-nedele-priletim-v-moskvu-yure-snimut-shvy--/

    Yuri says he had surgery on his hand (recurrent wrist fracture) in Sports Injury Clinic in Moscow. Next week (this week, actually) they should be back in Moscow, the sutures will be removed, and they start training for Russian Cap Final, where they plan to skate to compensate for lack of competitive practice after the Grand Prix Final, and then concentrate on preparation for the Worlds. Currently, they cannot perform all the elements (lifts, death spiral) because of sutures, but otherwise practice as usual.
     
  8. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Vornov actually skated well at Worlds last year...his FS was very strong jump-wise, just between the depth of the field and his PCS being low, his placement wasn't great. Kovtun zayaked and still got quite impressive scores at Euros, not to mention at the JGPF and one of his other JGP events he also put up pretty strong scores. And this is as a 17 year old with lots of room to improve. I understand the fed backing him and giving him the nod for Worlds. Menshov sure skated pretty well this season, but he's never going to be taken seriously on the World stage, not now considering his age, and his results in the past haven't been great as a whole so he doesn't have his experience and past accomplishments to boost him up to contender status when he does skate well like someone like Joubert does. From the looks of it, Kovtun appears to have what he needs to become a contender on the World level a few years down the line, and given his young age, judges are not going to hold back on his scores because he's an up-and-comer with loads of potential, rather than a skater whose age and lack of impressive competitive history makes him an afterthought or also-ran like Menshov or Vornov. I agree the selection of Kovtun for Euros maybe was a little questionable, but given how well he performed there, his going to Worlds is completely justified IMO. Further, his winning the JGPF and great FS there I do think sort of amount to enough of an edge to get him to Euros over Menshov.
     
  9. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Voronov was clean at 2012 worlds but his jumps were not compettive to place in the top 10. His three jump combo was 2a 3t 2t. It was not a really serious skate aside from the quad and two triple axels.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2013
  10. pingu

    pingu Well-Known Member

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    Thanks :)
     
  11. Kasey

    Kasey Loving on babies!

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    Voronov has also had a much more consistent year this year than last season, with the exception of the strange spin blunder that snowballed at Europeans. So perhaps sending him to Worlds this year would not elicit the negative results like last year; but his PCS would still be too low to seriously challenge.
     
  12. Katarzyna

    Katarzyna Well-Known Member

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    I'm talking about 2nd substitute behind Leonova, like she was listed for Euros. So in case fed decides to send Leonova, she'd probably be first substitute, which would give her higher chances to make the team. All other girls, who placed in front of her at Nats - apart those who were competing at Euros - were not age eligible as far as I know. Beside that it was my point was that Gosviani should go, as she deserved that spot fair and in square by beating the two other girls at RN. This was a "support for Gosviani" despite "sad for Makarova" post to clear up in case you wrongly understood that my intention was to argue RF should substitute Govsiani with Makarova. :)

    I didn’t mention Voronov in my post. That’s another topic, I will come back later on. Kovtun did well in JGP and so did Menshov in his senior Events this year. Kovtun sure did well at Europeans, but do you know how Menshov would have placed? (He beat Brezina at NRW just before Christmas). And Menshov didn’t have a disaster at his first Euros, he placed 7th, so just two places lower than Kovtun. You have strange maths if 5th is very good and 7th a disaster. :rolleyes:
    But like Kovtun Menshov had a great free skate in 2011, with the only difference that judges didn’t held him up after a disastrous short, like they did with other skaters (he made two mistakes in his SP, like Kovtun did this year :p).

    Well, at least he won a medal - can’t be said of Kovtun. :HA!:

    Do you actually read other posters posts, before your reply to them? Obviously not, otherwise you would have noticed, that I didn’t refer to Voronov at all, as his case is clear. Moreover I was talking about a “chance to make the team”, and only referring to the trio Kovtun – Gachinski – Menshov and their chances for a spot, even if only as a substitute nominee (don’t forget that just a couple of weeks ago there was still talk about Plushenko going to worlds). Of course I know that 1st and 2nd finisher were fixed and nothing against a rule stating that coaches decide on the third spot, but does this imply this decision can be taken randomly? It should certainly also follow the principles of sport – and obviously even some Russian skating officials involved in the whole affair think they were not applied here. :bloc:

    See answer above. Obviously you again didn’t read my post, there was no talk about sending Makarova instead of Govsiani or Leonova. But then I’m able to cheer for a skater without wanting her/him to take spots from other skaters, who placed better in the relevant events. Apparently not everybody’s cup of tea. ;)

    Talking about Nats – how Leonova managed to be only half a point below Makarova in the FS, who at least managed to stay on her feet this time and how Leonova was ahead of her in PCS for that lackluster performance just gives you another insight that some coaches have more influence on judges and some less. :judge:


    But that’s not true if this season is concerned. Menshov had quite good results (e.g. he won NRW-Trophy, finishing ahead of Brezina, who won a medal at Euros!)

    Beside that I don’t see the point – some skaters are late developers due to various reasons (nerves, injuries, some might choose to invest in education first), should they quit as soon as youngsters are coming up as long as they still feel they might beat them under fair judging? Maria Butyrskaja would then never been a World Champion, Akiko Suzuki should have quit skating years ago! :confused:

    Actually I don’t like that this discussion always ends up in a Kovtun-Menshov fight. It’s all about the question if a fed can pick skaters for major events just by personal preference or if such decision should be based on sport and on consistent and predictable selection methods. If results and accomplishments would be so very much important to the fed, again, why did they announce that Menshov and Gachinski should have a skate off before Worlds? Gachinski didn’t deliver much this season and has been beaten by Menshov twice. So here results don’t count at all, but if it’s Kovtun – Menshov (you could insert skater X and Y) then results – despite you could hardly argue that junior and senior events are comparable – count. That’s pick and choose based on the fact, which methods gives you the preferred result. :rolleyes:

    If age and lack of achievements at progressed age is such a decisive factor, so that skaters will never make the team even when they improve in later years, I already see the first young Russian girls taking secret meds to avoid puberty for peaking as early as possible – once the train is gone for a Russian skater, it’s obviously gone and you can never catch up. With that as a standard strategy we will probably also see a lot of the young Russian ladies switiching countries after just one or two subpar seasons. :(
     
  13. poths

    poths Well-Known Member

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    Lol, that is still serious content. Voronov had less TES 3 years ago when he finished 4th! On the free at worlds. He was backed then as there was no plush comeback or Gachinski. He was dumped by his fed last year and unfortunayely politics and fed support are still highly prominent.

    I hapen to think that the empty Morozov tripe deserved the low placement, but using his TES base as a reasoning is inaccurate, since, as highlighted ..the same base brought him to 4th at worlds.
     
  14. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    But so many people above him had moved to two quads! And quad combos. He stayed the same when everyone else had advanced spectacularly in quads and jumps overall. So while him rotating one quad in a free in 2008 was amazing and got him to 4th when so many others were hit with downgrades was impressive that was not impressive at all in 2012. So it is really interesting how his free skate score was almost exactly the same in 2008 and 2012 and one was 4th place and one was 15th place it shows how huge a change there was in those 4 years. A total revolution in the jumps and rules with underrotation and downgrade. I think he says he was injured so that is why he didn't do two quads in the FS but anyway that is what he would have needed or if some bizarre twist was sent to London. 2 quads a 3/3 and just much bigger moves because now there's been revolution in mens skating.
     
  15. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Poor dude, is that going to be written on his tombstone?

    Beloved son. Dedicated athlete. He once finished fourth in the free at the Worlds.
     
  16. Loves_Shizuka

    Loves_Shizuka Gettin' my sass out

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  17. Moka-Ananas

    Moka-Ananas Man's Ruin

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    I don't get the hating towards Kovtun.
    Yes, he was lucky he got sent to Euros, no doubt about that. The outrage was understandable after Russian Nats that he got picked over Menshov.
    BUT
    Kovtun actually DELIVERED at Euros, making the fed's decision to send him justified.
    The "What ifs" in case Menshov had been at Euros are stupid since no one knows.
    Maxim did very well at Euros while Voronov bombed so Maxim DESERVED his spot on the Worlds team. The Russian fed is clearly interested in obtaining 2 spots for Sochi Olympics and neither Voronov who has bombed most of the time at big competitions nor Menshov who is EXTREMELY inconsistent (remember that Universiade where he placed 25th in the SP and 1st in the FP?) are likely to place in the top 10.
    The judges like Maxim and thus would be willing to give him the PCS he needs for the top 10 (in case he doesn't bomb).
     
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  18. TAHbKA

    TAHbKA Well-Known Member

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    Iמnterview with Leonova for fcp-press
    in short: should she make it to the national team for the worlds she will be skating the last year's LP
     
  19. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    His programs are totally empty and don't even have a semblance of style. He's not even pretending to do anything other than jumps.

    The Requiem for a Dream empty piece of shite?

    Wonderful.

    One more reason to send Gosviani (Russian Fed, do the right thing!). :p
     
  20. kirkbiggestfan

    kirkbiggestfan Well-Known Member

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    Leonova is the current world silver medalist and is politely being shown the retirement door. It is sad that Morozov gave her that crap of a LP that highlighted all her weaknesses last year.
    I love Gosviani's skating..gorgeous lines, attention to details, balletic posture..the Russian ballerina on ice, everything Leonova is not.
    Has it ever happened to a silver medalist to be dropped like this?
     
  21. Eislauffan

    Eislauffan Well-Known Member

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    In 1999, Irina Slutskaia was left off the team for Europeans and Worlds in spite of being the 1998 World & European silver medalist.
     
  22. DaiKozOda

    DaiKozOda Active Member

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    And Slutskaya returned much stronger after a lot of people having said that she was done. I perfectly remember it.
     
  23. morqet

    morqet Active Member

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    And the other Russian men are offering so much more.... :rolleyes:
     
  24. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Voronov is similarly terrible, program wise thanks to Tricky Nicky.

    But Menshov's programs aren't that bad.
     
  25. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    The isu didnt have the cop then and didnt have to through all the effort of getting minimums and stuff.the person who went instead of slutskaya was actually eligible right away

    Leonova is not slutskaya in any way!

    There is much more talent now

    Leonova is much more fragile and inconsistent
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2013
  26. oleada

    oleada Well-Known Member

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    Suguri was off the JPN world team in 2007 despite being the world silver medalist
     
  27. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    But its the same thing Suguri- the person who replaced her was eligible and there was no doubt of there eligibility. It's not like the person who replaced her had to go to 4CC or some senior B or junior B to get eligibility.
     
  28. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Why does this matter for the Worlds spot? Only for the Euros spot was Gosviani not yet eligible. As far as the ISU was concerned, Gosviani's appointment to Euros was provisional, until she turned in scores from an international, which she did at a Junior B. Had she not, Russia would have sent its first alternate. Once she earned the Worlds minimums in Warsaw and Zagreb, she became as eligible as the skater who replaced Suguri when the selection was made. The Worlds spot was still open -- it wasn't assigned to Gosviani automatically, dumping reigning silver World medalist Leonova off the World team, before Gosviani became eligible. The Russian Fed reserved the right to evaluate Gosviani's results at Euros and Leonova's at its internal competition or to flip a coin.
     
  29. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    It was like this for Euros though. The world silver medalist was dumped for somone not yet eligible and there was no hesitation about doing that. Now that Gosviani is eligible of course she is going to worlds. So that is not dumping Leonova as that was already done for Euros, Gosviani being put on the list before she was eligible.
     
  30. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Isn't the skater's actual performance at Europeans irrelevant? The question is whether the choice was fair. The Federation went by its own rules, but on a moral level, one could (and I would) argue that Menshov would have been a better choice.

    Russia also sent Plushenko to Euros. He did not deliver; he withdrew in the middle of competition. Does that make the decision to send him unjustified?
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2013
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