From Russia With Love - Winter 2012/13

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Nov 27, 2012.

  1. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Well yeah but you can't have it both ways. Either you only take Nationals' results into consideration or you leave a door open and then that creates a situation of uncertainty.
     
  2. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    I don't qualify as a cute enough female, though ;)
     
  3. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    I think I know what you mean and Japan had something like this in 2006. It was a points system with skaters receiving different points for different national and international results. They knew exactly how much everything was weighted. Miki Ando finished off the podium at Nationals, but got just the placement she needed to get the points to go to the Olympics, which everyone thought was rigged and was so awful and unfair to Nakano. France had something similar too, and gave Contesti the spot based on the criteria, but Dambier sued and won the Olympic spot. So someone will always end up unhappy.

    I do agree that it must be frustrating for someone like Menshov. The federation's criteria are loose in the sense that it's "let's see how you skate at the Russian Cup Final and we'll see how we like it/you compared to how we liked Kovtun at Euros." It isn't like "win the Russian Cup Final with xxx TES score and you get Worlds."

    The goalpost is, and always has been, win stuff internationally and the federation will give you additional chances for Worlds even if you screw up Nationals (which isn't necessarily a bad idea or unfair).
     
  4. MarieM

    MarieM Grumpy Cynical Ice Dance Lover

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    France hasn't got something similar, there are no points given whatsoever ! AT ALL. We have test skates. Those test are made to select whoever is in favor with the FFSG at the appointed moment, especially if you're a pupil of dear dear Annick. Or whoever can serve better the president's goal meaning his reelection at the head of the FFSG. Usually, the selection is right in the end. But it's quite hard for the skaters who achieved a good placement at nationals and end up nowhere.
     
  5. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    I know it's usually not points, but I thought in 2006 only there was something like that - maybe not points, but some kind of criteria that was set up with more detail than usual for France, but still didn't work out for the athletes. I could be misremembering completely, though. :lol:

    ETA: For those with access to the archives, here is a post about it. The two best CoP scores for each guy would be combined and the top 3 got Euros, which would be a qualifier to the Olympics. Drama ensued because Contesti had beaten Dambier in all or most of their head to heads, but did not get named to the Euro team based on the criteria, so the federation, of course, mandated a test skate anyway. :rofl:
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2013
  6. Domshabfan

    Domshabfan Searching for Cizeron's Instagram

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    Importance of Russia cup only comes after the Europeans. For instance last year at Russian Nationals Menshov was 7th, so Russia selected their 3 athletes based on the nationals result for the Europeans 1) Plushenko (gold at Europeans) 2) Gachinski (2nd at Europeans) 3) Voronov (10th at Europeans ). this result was good enough for Gachinski and 10th was deemed good enough for the europeans, remember Menshov winning the Russia cup is not just the criteria, but how he wins it also important. When Menshov won the russian national championships, he was sent to the europeans where he bombed the SP and lost to very young Gachinski. I am also shocked at what people are now suggesting, they want to sent Menshov ahead of Voronov to the worlds, remember Voronov beat Menshov very, very comfortably. Menshov was only very able to beat Gashinski and Kovtun.


    Russians have used this method of selection for championships for few years, remember when Leonova was given the second european spot over Petushkova in 2009, even though Petushkova beaten her at the nationals. Leonova had lost to Gerboldt (3rd at Nationals ) and Petushkova (4th at nationals), Federation but decided to pass Petushkova and gave the spot to relative youngster with promise, Leonova. Leonova finsihed 4th at the Europeans and won the world juniors to win the lone spot for Russia at the worlds. Was it not unfair to Petushkova :)scream:). They have used this system very effective to monitor the progress of young athletes. In a country like Russia, where federation is paying for everything, I think rules to monitor the athletes is very fair. I would rather see this than the performance of Alissa at the last world championships or Flatt a year before that.
     
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  7. Glacier cat

    Glacier cat Member

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    According to this article, Plushy anyway can not compete in March since he's going to have artificial disc replacement surgery tomorrow in Tel Aviv. Mishin told Plushy will be able to swim and walk four weeks after surgery. I wish him successful surgery and complete healing.

    http://ria.ru/sport/20130130/920530714.html
     
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  8. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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  9. peibeck

    peibeck Letting Poje be on top

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    Tomorrow? I guess it is just as well that he not do the Art on Ice shows, but I feel badly for his fans that were hoping to see him.

    I wish him luck with his surgery too.
     
  10. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. And if you think that Federation officials and other people involved in the Russian figure skating such as Averbukh defended the Fed's decision to send Kovtun to Euros over Menshov by saying something along the lines of "Menshov? Oh, he is such a nice skater but let's face it, he isn't getting any younger", just give Menshov a good reason why he should compete at the Russian Cup Final and fight for gold there other than possibly the prize money. I mean would he suddenly get a few years younger if he won the RCF?;)

    Urmanov was recently asked by a reporter which one singles skater from Russia he thought would most deserve to go to the World Championships and Urmanov replied "Today - only Maxim Kovtun."

    http://fcp-press.ru/interview/p2_articleid/6348

    Isn't it interesting that while Voronov is the national silver medalist and Kovtun finished off the podium in Sochi, Urmanov isn't even considering Sergei as a possible option?
     
  11. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Can Kovtun got to JW and senior Worlds and does the fed encourage this? Or will he do one and not the other, and if so, which one? He did very well at Euros despite Zayaking, and his PCS were quite good too! I agree he is the future of Russian men's skating and should cause a buzz in Sochi next season, but I just worry about him getting burnt out if he does JW and senior Worlds after already competing at Euros. Maybe Kovtun and his coaches will be given the choice to decide which competition he goes to?

    Also I hope Nikol goes to Worlds, she was really lovely at Euros and if Leonova cannot skate well now, I don't see why Gosviani shouldn't be sent to the Worlds as well. The fed will be relying on Liza and Adelina to get 3 spots so it's not like Nikol is in a really high pressure situation anyhow.
     
  12. allezfred

    allezfred Old and Immature Admin Staff Member

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    That's not correct. :p
     
  13. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    If Menshov wins the Russian Cup with poor skates, it means his rivals were disastrous and Konstantin should still prevail, no?:confused:

    When Menshov won Nationals a couple of years ago, Gachinski bombed his SP there, so the two were even at the end of the day.;)

    Yeah but if I were a skater, I'd much prefer a selection system which is transparent and predictable to any other system because I would know what to expect from my Federation. But so long as the Federation foots my training bill, it's pretty obvious I am hardly in a position to choose at all. End of story.:slinkaway
     
  14. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    It's all because Urmanov is Mad that sergei left him and wants to destroy him!!! Lol no but voronov was at 2012 worlds too and he bombed too. Gachinski gets the blame with reason because he was world bronze medalist but voronov was there too because of gachinski. so kovtun is the best shot and then maybe menshov and after that no one is age eligible because gachinski is out to recover.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
  15. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Very good point. It's a trade off. The rules are less clear for the athletes but since you're constantly monitored you avoid a situation when somebody has one good skate at Nationals but is just not in good enough shape immediately preceding a major event.
     
  16. Domshabfan

    Domshabfan Searching for Cizeron's Instagram

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    Not only athletes compete at Russia cup, it is not Russia Nationals part 2... so this year likes of Kovtun won't compete. Last year Gachinski did not have to compete at the Russia cup event due to his results at the Europeans. Russia cup is one of many events they look at while selecting the team for worlds. A very strong performance at Europeans always helps you cause for the worlds, a good showing at Junior worlds can help your chances as well. Russia cup is also used to see who is best prepared at the moment.

    As for Urmanov's comments, the same thing can be said about Morosov's comments. Kovtun was an athlete who was thrown out of Morosov's group and now he has proved himself with a Junior Grand Prix final gold and a 5th position at the Europeans.
     
  17. nuge

    nuge Well-Known Member

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    Thankyou .Nice to see Bobrova strutting her stuff shame about the fall and the last lift looked a little awkward.A nice change for them .:)
     
  18. bek

    bek Guest

    Yes, but one only has to look at the scoring of US Nationals, and wonder how transparent the US system really is. Seems to me that the US judges do their best to ensure they get the teams they want. (Look at the ladies scoring)

    At least the Russians are honest that they are taking more competitions into account, and as mentioned they pay for training.
     
  19. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Any word on Gosviani? I love her skating and thought she was great at Euros. So hope she goes to Worlds!
     
  20. Maofan7

    Maofan7 Member

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    Apologies if this has already been posted - new article entitled: 'Russia&#8217;s figure skating team comes up on top at 2013 championships'
     
  21. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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    Gosviani probbaly wont be going to Worlds
    tehy might gamble with Loenova
     
  22. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

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    (Edited out my question because love_skate2011 has since deleted the original post.)
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
  23. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    Well it's a new exhibition, so they probably aren't very comfortable with it yet. It will probably be much better at worlds
     
  24. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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    ^^

    I deleted it,
    she just went to Germany thats it
     
  25. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    If that is true, why isn't she doing Junior Nationals and being considered for Junior Worlds?

    Lipnitskaia and Radionova are a lock but I think Gosviani would be a great third entry.
     
  26. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    The Fed probably wants to send Pogorilaya, who has built up momentum with 1st and 3rd at her JGP events and 3rd at JGPF. She was also a strong 5th at Nationals, finishing ahead of Gosviani. I think she will be the third entry to JW provided she skates decently well at Junior Nationals - most of the girls who could potentially beat her should she falter are too young to go anyways, so I tend to think barring disaster Anna will be on the team. She has huge 3lz-3t and 2a-3t-2t combos.
     
  27. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Good point, forgot about her.

    Well this means that Euros was most likely the first and the last major event for Gosviani. :p
     
  28. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    From a World Standings point of view, Gosviani earned 496 points at Euros, and could only earn a max of 4 points were she to win Jr. Worlds, since only points from one championship count each season. (She'd need 9th or higher at Worlds to earn any incremental points.) None of the other age-eligible Juniors have any WS championship points this season. Lipnitskaia is currently 17th in WS, and while her 2011-12 points will get the 70% factor next season, none drop off, and she'll be age eligible for Worlds. Radionova and Pogorilaya are currently 74th and 78th in WS, and this is the first season they've had points, and were they to do well at Jr. Worlds, their WS will rise by at least 25 if not 30 or more places, after 2010-11 is dropped and 2011-12 is factored by 70%.

    Ranked 75th in WS, Gosviani would draw for one of the 15 SP spots in Groups 1 or 2 or the first three spots in Group 3 for the lucky. Leonova is currently ranked 3, with 3481 points. Asada would need a win at 4C's to surpass her before Worlds, and Wagner, the next non-Euro skating, is 870 points behind her and can't pass her even with a 4C's win, so Leonova is guaranteed to be in the draw for skating the SP in Groups 4 and 5. Wagner at 4C's should push Sotnikova and Tuktamysheva down a place, and Murakami could with a win or silver, but it's mathematically impossible for the next in line at 4C's, Zijun Li. The worst ranking the two young Russians will have is 9th and 10th, and they'll draw for spots in the last two groups.

    Without a championship score, Leonova will be left with 1911 WS points at the beginning of GP season, which this year would have put her 11th on the WS list. This is important if she doesn't go to Worlds, because she's currently 25th on the SB list, with a shot at being surpassed by V. Helgesson (SB, 28 155.72) and possibly Fuente (SB 32, 152.21) at Worlds. Her WS would guarantee her a GP spot that didn't have to be a host spot.

    Gosviani is currently 29th on the SB list, with 154.41, or 3.17 points below Meite's 24th SB, so with a stronger score at Worlds, having established herself at Euros, she, V. Helgesson, Meite, and tied for 23rd Cesario (with Imai) would be fighting for those last Top 24 SB spots, not all to get GP spots. Cesario, Hicks (SB 30, 153.77) and Siraj are going to be trying to better, or in the case of Siraj, establish SB scores. They're all pretty low 50's-80's in WS.

    I don't think the Russian Fed necessarily cares about Gosviani, with Sotnikova and Tuktamysheva edging past their growth spurts and adjusting, Leonova as a fallback, and potential star Lipnitskaia if she keeps her jumps for another year, but if they do, and Leonova goes to Worlds, they can give her a host spot or convince another Fed to choose her from the Top 75 list, after the guaranteed spots have been divvied up.
     
  29. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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    because there are many other juniors even better than Gosviani ? :confused:
    I can think of the names Sakhanovich , eligible ? or Anna Pogorilaya etc.
     
  30. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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