From Russia With Love - Winter 2012/13

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Nov 27, 2012.

  1. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    I would have sent Menshov because two fourth places in the GP is pretty good and he should have a respectable skate at Euros, but I am a little surprised at the outpouring of emotion over this. It's not like Menshov had a brilliant skate at Nationals whatsoever. As Marco says, Voronov and Menshov are all about jumps, and presumably whoever outjumps the other will place higher at Euros. If they both had skated well at Nats, I guess they would be sent to Euros, so that the stronger one can be sent to Worlds and hopefully land all his jumps and eke out a 10th place. That's the best you could expect from either of them and they would have to be squeaky clean to do it.

    However, if Menshov skates at Worlds as he did in Nationals or the GP, there is very little chance of him making the top 10 at Worlds, so there is little point in sending him from the fed's POV.
     
  2. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Did Plushenko say he isn't skating at Worlds? If yes, all the more reason to give Kovtun a chance at Euros. Voronov's spot at Euros is undeniable but he isn't always that reliable. If Kovtun manage to beat Voronov at Euros, then he can legitimately be sent to Worlds.
     
  3. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Plushenko's gameplan has been to do only Euros. Mishin started hinting after Nationals that he may go to Worlds if he is feeling physically up to it, but it's not set in stone, so they need to assume he's not going.
     
  4. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Having stated beforehand that first and second would go automatically to Euros, the only way Menshov could have been sent over Voronov is if Menshov had beaten Voronov at Nationals.

    I wonder if Plushenko has any show lined up around Worlds. If so, it would be best to submit him as a Worlds substitite, so he can decide up to the last minute whether to skate. They don't want a reprise of his ban situation.
     
  5. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    I just think the whole situation, arranged to likely give Kovtun more exposure/street cred/experience/ranking points heading into Sochi, which it seems the Fed wants him to be on the team for provided Russia has at least 2 spots, could potentially backfire.

    Kovtun has great odds to medal or even win JW, which I assume he will be sent to regardless of what happens at Europeans, however, by doing Europeans as well, he has to train senior programs from now until then, then switch back to training junior programs after Europeans up until JW. So loss of training time, not to mention fatigue, divided attention, jumping time zones, etc could all hurt him come JW. Not to mention that with this being his senior international debut and his selection being controversial, I would not be surprised if Maxim doesn't skate nearly as well as he did at his JGP in Croatia and at the JGPF - where he was nearly flawless with a quad and three 3a between his two programs both times. In fact, I wonder if Kovtun might bomb a bit at Euros, or not even bomb so much as have a nervy skate, and if he does and doesn't place so well, there will be backlash about how Menshov should have been sent all along and questions about whether he's now a headcase and whatnot, and that could affect his mindset and potentially the outcome at JW as well.

    I get Kovtun will do better at the Olympics if he has more international reputation and points, but I honestly think winning, or even medaling considering the strength of Yan and Farris, among others, at JW will help him as much if not more than a lower top-10 finish at Euros will, which is what I expect he'll place. And further, if doing both competitions wears him out and affects his training and confidence, he could have finishes at one or both events that are below his capabilities and then sending him to Euros really does no good.

    I could maybe understand things more if it looked like Kovtun had a great shot to medal at Euros, but at this point Plush and Javi are a lock for 2 of the podium spots, and Amodio, Brezina are definitely capable of taking the last spot if they skate well, not to mention with it being Euros, skaters like Joubert, Verner, Voronov, etc. could even be in the mix with good skates because Euros doesn't seem to dump the old comers as quickly as at Worlds.
     
  6. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

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    Anything could happen, I don't think its worth getting all worked up over personally. Yes, yes easy for me to say, I'm not involved. Any number of scenarios could play out. We don't have to wrap these skaters up like they are fabrege eggs.
     
  7. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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  8. Lis

    Lis Active Member

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    Very sad that Menshov will not compete at Euros :( He is truly one of the most interesting skaters to watch. I don't agree at all that he is all about jumps that could not be more wrong with a skater that is absolutely amazing to see live due to his great expressions,interpretation etc.People who thinks he is all about jumps have not seen him skate live .
     
  9. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

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    That poster misspoke, they were referring to Kovtun...
     
  10. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    Gachinski should go to another coach. He needs a Brian Orser kind of coach. He has the same technical strength and weakness as Fernandez. But unlike Fernandez, He's just looking hopeless now. Why not have some change. But I guess in Russia, coach changing is very big thing, he might get trouble for that.
     
  11. Eislauffan

    Eislauffan Well-Known Member

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    I don't think that coach Mishin is Gachinski's problem. Apparently he has been going through some turmoil in his private life.
     
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  12. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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    Thanks, Eislauffan. There are usually legitimate reasons for why a skater may be "looking hopeless" in competition and we fans don't have the right to know anything the skater doesn't choose to share publicly.

    Re-posting from the competition thread in Kiss and Cry:
    Mentor Nestle Nesquik Torun Cup (Torun, Poland Jan. 9-12) updated list of entries: http://mnntc.axeltorun.pl/images/files/List of skaters 30.12.2012.pdf
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2012
  13. babayaga

    babayaga Active Member

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    I agree with you about Menshov, I started to really like his skating since last year. I am very sad he is not going to Euros, would much rather see him than Kovtun.
     
  14. dinakt

    dinakt Well-Known Member

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    I think there is a lot of emotion involved because Menshov has been an "
    also-ran, just short of a break- through" skater for almost a decade. And when another would have given up a long time ago, Menshov persevered, improved and started showing legitimately high results at a very late age. He turns 30 in February. I disagree that he is all about jumps. While not balletic and graceful, he is a very interesting, smart skater, with unusual ( and somewhat bizzarre) concepts in his programs. In a word, he is a maverick. Thus the outpouring of emotion when the Federation passed him by; much more so than it would have been for most other skaters ( also, it is a complete hearsay, but the hearsay reports he is a very classy, decent guy)
    From the point of view of the Federation, I do not see any violation of rules in sending Kovtun; it makes strategical sense. But passing Menshov by feels particularly cold; and that's to what, I think, his fellow skaters are reacting.
     
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  15. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    when Menshov won the russian mens title in 2011 there was talks about him being robbed in the past and especially the previous year when he placed 4th and ahead of Voronov in the FS. I forget who the famle skater was who said he had been robbed and now he won something very deserving.
     
  16. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

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    It sounds like Menshov is well liked by other skaters. The fed, however, has to make a 'cold' strategic decision. It is also natural for others to feel for Menshov. It's possible that Kovtun may not perform well at the Euros and Menshov could still get his chance at the 2013 worlds.
     
  17. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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  18. AJ Skatefan

    AJ Skatefan Well-Known Member

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    I saw him live this year and kind of thought he was all about jumps. But I enjoyed watching him.
     
  19. Katarzyna

    Katarzyna Well-Known Member

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    If Menshov skates like he did in December at NRW -Trophy, he actually might get a medal at Euros (the overall scoring would have been enough if compared with the last three years result’s at Euros) and easily place top 10 at Worlds. Actually after the start of GPF I think no one except Hanyu and Fernandez reached a higher TES in the free than Menshov at NRW. So if he can keep it together, he could place quite well.

    True, Menshov didn’t have a brilliant skate at RN, but I remember he had some boot problems and still he was better than Kovtun.

    And if Fed took into account this season’s results / scores in addition to the results of Nationals, I think they should have rather favoured Menshov. As already pointed out comparing placements in seniors to placement in juniors 1:1 is not really objective and in particular not in case the senior skater had to compete against reigning world medalists. - Just hope Russian Fed and Tat have not lost sense for reality and think Kovtun could beat them already. Menshov had some decent skates this season proving he can to a certain level keep up with the elite.


    I saw him skating live in Oberstdorf and I was actually very nicely surprized. Saying he is all about jumps is indeed pretty harsh. I really like that his programmes seem to be a bit different, sometimes strange, but interesting (= no overused music he skates through). But compared to other top skaters like e.g. the Japanese top guys I’d say he is lacking something in the artistic department. But on the other hand it’s not like Kovtun can keep up with the very best seniors in that area yet.


    I don’t think the other skaters would have opposed to the Fed’s decision just because of the RF making a “cold” strategic decision towards a well liked guy (though the other skaters probably would not have supported him the way they did in case he’d be a complete A$$). And I don’t think Nilov would have made an appeal to the Ministry, if it was just “feeling” for the “nice” guy.

    But you mentioned it being a strategic decision and that’s actually the point, in fact it looks like the fed’s decision was neither based on the skaters performances at Nats nor on their performances during this season (see above – IMO this would rather favoured Menshov), but only for the strategic reason to promote a young skater supported by a famous coach which they consider to possibly be the “next big thing” in FS at the expense of a skater who has no backing in behind and which they don’t consider as perspective any longer due to his advanced age.

    Taking into account strategic issues for sure is important, but unethic if it leads to age discrimination of skaters, to decisions which are based on influence of famous coaches, to decisions which fully leave aside the sportive results of the competitors and lead to completely unequal treatment. I really think that Russian Fed was sending a very alarming message to their skaters – they’ll replace any skater that seems to be pretty much at the end of his “lifecycle” by a perspective younger one if it’s “opportune” for them without caring of their current results / skating level.


    It’s pretty unlikely that either of them will go to Worlds and Russia has only one sport this year, which will go to Plushenko or Voronov in first choice. And Russian Fed also already stated that Menshov might need to do a skate off with Gachinski in case that spot can be filled in with someone else, which I think is just incredibly unfair. :(

    In addition it might also happen that Kovtun skates well at Euros and then? Most probably the RF will then send him also to Worlds in case the spot is free. At least up to now there was no talk that there will be a skate off between Menshov and Kovtun which again is pretty much unfair, as of course Menshov did not get a chance to prove himself at Euros.
     
  20. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    I believe this is code for "if you pay me enough, I will go to Worlds and save you the embarrassment".
     
  21. NadineWhite

    NadineWhite Well-Known Member

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    "O! beware, my lord, of jealousy; It is the green-eyed monster which doth mock The meat it feeds on." ~ Shakespeare ;)
     
  22. misskarne

    misskarne #ForzaJules #KeepFightingMichael

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    Gachinski and Mishin have talked to All Sport, trying to explain the problems:

    Gachinski:

    (here)

    Mishin:

    (here)

    Apologies for dodgy Google Translate.

    I think so far there have been three problems identified:

    1) Numbess in his legs
    2) Weakened immune system (I remember Mishin mentioning this after SC as well)
    3) The "very personal" circumstance
     
  23. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

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    I hope Gachinski can work through his problems- physical and emotional, and comes back a stronger skater. He has too much talent to miss out on a solid skating career.
     
  24. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    I hope I have understood you, Plush will compete on WCH if the Russian Federation will pay enough money to him? It seems you don't know the Russian conditions, that isn't USA. The Rus Fed has a lots of other assets, if they want to send Plush to London. Do you remember to 2010, after WCH?
    And Plush has enough money, he earned more than 3 million dollars( russian Forbes Magazine) in two last years. And his wife is an also famous and succesful celebrity in Russia. Plush will earn a lots of money with the "Just 30" shows in Russia and in other countries of Europe in spring.( His wife planned 30 shows :eek:) He will perform in Artists On Ice in Switzerland and in the Skandinavian countries, etc. But I don't say that Plushenko will compete on WCH, if he will be healthy..I think, he will compete when he will be ready to fight with the youngs.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2013
  25. rfisher

    rfisher Satisfied skating fan

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    I agree that Plushenko's skating at worlds has nothing to do with money. He won't skate unless he is totally in shape and feeling good so he can be competitive with the Japanese and Chan. Europeans is another story. He can beat Fernandez and Amodio. Both have a tendency to fold under real pressure and Plushenko owns Europeans. I would be thrilled if he opted to skate at Worlds since that would mean he's 100%, but I don't think that will happen. It's not worth the risk of injury prior to next year's big event. He's already going to the Olympics and I doubt either he or Mishin are all that concerned about if there is a 2nd spot or who would have it. :lol:
     
  26. morqet

    morqet Active Member

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    Just to play Devils Advocate... assuming that Russia only has one spot for men in Sochi, what do you think would happen if Plushenko struggled at Nationals next year, & one of Kovtun/Gachinski/Vonorov had a really strong autumn & won Nats? Do we all think the Olympic spot is already tied up or is there still potential for one of the younger guys to take it from him?
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2013
  27. Domshabfan

    Domshabfan Well-Known Member

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    Plushenko could compete in both the championships and increase the chance of getting injured again and be ruled out of the Olympics altogether. I think Russians have learned the lesson with the case of Shablin, never to rush or over do while nursing a serious injury. I think they are doing the balancing act of being in the spotlight going into the Olympics ( and not to totally pi$$ of I$u ) and not over do training during each season. Gachinski and Kovtun could very well be a challenge next year, but so far we haven't seen anything from those two to rival Plushenko. Not going to the worlds is a risk I think Plushenko and his team is ready to take considering the alternative.
     
  28. rfisher

    rfisher Satisfied skating fan

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    Yes the spot is his and no I do not think any of the other Russian men will challenge him unless he's too injured to skate. If that happens, it's a moot point because none of the others have a prayer of a medal unless all the Japanese and Chan decide Sochi is too cold and stay home.
     
  29. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

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    I don't think Plushenko cares about/needs money. He has plenty of it. He loves to compete. If he is healthy enough to be competitive, he will be there.
     
  30. nylynnr

    nylynnr Active Member

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    I'm not sure about this statement. I certainly wouldn't blame Plushenko if he did care about money; if nothing else, he needs it to pay for all those German knee operations. And even if he doesn't care about money, I will wager his wife does, and perhaps his ex-wife as well. He does not lead an inexpensive life.