From Russia With Love - Winter 2012/13

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Nov 27, 2012.

  1. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    Hmm? Where did Morozov talk about Sinitsina and Zhiganshin?
  2. DaiKozOda

    DaiKozOda Active Member

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    As far I understood, Morozov talked about Sinitsina and Zhiganshin as an example to question the logic of the coaching council in what concerns the Menshov/Kovtun situation. It's like, if Menshov is left out of the team because he is older and there's another skater younger and more promising, why haven't they done the same in dance (leave R&T home and nominate S&Z because they are younger and possible contenders for the future). The thing is that in dance, the federation respected the results from nationals (the top three go to euros) but for the men's team it was a different story. That's what I got from his statements.
  3. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    I meant where was the article? In the article in this thread, I couldn't find any mention of Sinitsina and Zhiganshin
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  4. DaiKozOda

    DaiKozOda Active Member

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  5. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Does anyone have the link for Gosviyani's FS from the Mentor Nestle Nesquik Torun Cup?
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  6. Katarzyna

    Katarzyna Well-Known Member

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    I'd be really interested in this as well! I tried to search for a link but didn't find anything. Maybe it will be online here later on: http://www.youtube.com/user/mnntc13. Her SP is already online, but it looks like the upload of the Junior Ladies FS is not finished yet. So it might be online soon. :watch:

    Meanwhile I'll link the protocol of that event for those who are interested in it:
    http://www.pfsa.com.pl/results/2012/MNNTC13/mnntc13_JuniorLadies_FS_Scores.pdf

    For those who didn't follow that event, Nicole Govsiani reached the TES minimum score to compete at Euros! :)
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  7. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Gosviani made the Worlds SP TES minimum, but missed the FS minimum by 2.38 points. She singled an axel and a toe; had she done doubles in both without losing much GOE, she would have made it, but at Euros, she'll have the CH sequence element that's not included in Junior FS's. She also only had two combos at Nesquick. She should have a good shot at making the Worlds FS TES minimum at Euros.
  8. Katarzyna

    Katarzyna Well-Known Member

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  9. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    I know that she singled some jumps and there was no Ch Seq, but the idea of a free skate with a 3/3, 5 clean triples in total and a sixth triple with partial credit NOT reaching Worlds minimum TES is disturbing...
  10. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

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    Thanks! I was getting a bit nervous looking at the protocols just now,
  11. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    I totally agree. Also, I feel like you should only have to reach the standard in the SP. If you qualify for the SP at worlds, you should be allowed to skate the SP at worlds - presuming you qualify through your country's selection process. If you don't qualify for the FS at worlds, well then, off you go.
  12. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    The TES minimum is not to establish a standard amount of average technical ability for championships, but to be sure the field is small enough to eliminate the need for prelims. If a five-triple program with the levels of spins and steps she obtained with the GOE she got isn't high enough for Worlds, it means that there are a championship full of skaters that perform better technically. The TES minimums are relative to the strength of the field, although for Euros/4C's in the SP for at least some disciplines, they hover at doing the minimum required technically at base GOE.

    We're so used to thinking that the technical standard for Ladies has gone down so much, without looking at the number of skaters who are at the level established for the TES minimums.

    By having separate TES minimums for SP and FS, they have made the value judgement that they'd rather have a more balanced skater, rather than weight the SP more heavily than the FS by setting a single (probably higher) SP standard, regardless of how competitive the FS is, or by allowing a skater to be either balanced between the two programs or to be much stronger in one than the other by having a total that can be met, instead of individual minimums.

    The ISU reserved the right to adjust the scores, which means they could raise them if too many skaters met them, just as they could lower them if the bar proved to be too high. I'm surprised given the number of names on the singles lists that they didn't raise the scores for Euros or 4C's.
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2013
  13. Anya

    Anya Member

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    Limiting the number of entries is fine, but I think a number of skaters (Kostner, Korpi, for sure, Sotnikova and Tuktamysheva, maybe) can win a European Championships with the same (or even lesser) technical content and it seems weird that it is not enough to even qualify for Worlds. I am aware that all of them have already met TES requirements for Worlds, but the point still stands.
  14. Autumn_girl

    Autumn_girl Active Member

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    Actually Kostner won Worlds last season with lesser technical content (she also had 5 triples in her FS, but no 3-3 and no lutz), so it's weird indeed
  15. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    In last year's European Championship FS, only one skater in the Top 10 had lower TES than Gosviani (45.62) at Nesquick, 9th place Valentina Marchei, with 44.24 with one extra element, the relatively low-scoring CH spiral sequence. Even removing about 3.5 points for a beautifully done spiral, of the top six, Kostner, Korobeynikova, Gedevanishvili, Viktoria Helgesson, and Leonova would have had higher TES than Gosviani (as would 8th place Popova) and only Korpi, who beat her in absolute TES, would have been below her without the extra element. Regardless, Korpi performed higher technical content overall, because she did the spiral, and no one forced Gosviani to leave out a third combo at Nesquick, which many of the Ladies at 2012 Euros did.

    In 2011, which also had a CH spiral, only Glebova in the Top 10 had lower TES than Gosviani at Nesquick, and even taking out 3.5 points for a great spiral, the Top 3, Kostner, Meier, and Leonova, as well as Ira Vannut, would have still had over 50 points, and Linnae would have been close. Korpi, having mucked up her planned content, would have had lower TES if the spiral was removed, but she did the spiral.

    2010 was a lot weaker, and there was a leveled spiral sequence instead of the lower value CH one. Still, Kostner, with a 5 triple program (including 3F/3T and 3Lz) would have had higher TES had the 3.9 points she got for the spiral been subtracted, as would Gedevanishvili and Meier in the Top 6. In absolute terms, Lepisto, Korpi, Leonova, and Marchei in the Top 10 had lower TES than Gosviani, and six of the Top 10 had higher TES. 2009 was even weaker, but of the Top six, Kostner, Lepisto, and Leonova were solidly over 50 points in TES, with Meier close to 50, and Sebestyen had higher TES in absolute terms. Again, Korpi's TES were lower.

    Tuktamysheva might not need more than 43 TES to win Euros, because she only needs to be higher than the next highest skater, but so far this year, injured she scored 54.77, over 9 points more than Gosviani with one extra element, and in her other two outings, she scored 63.88 (TEB) and 63.65 (GPF). For Sotnikova to win Euros, either the rest of the field will have to implode, or she will have to do significantly better than the 51.36 she earned at SA and 48.28 she earned at Rostelecom Cup. Korpi improved her TES at GP's to range from 50.38-56.12, which was boding well for Euros until she was injured.

    I'm not seeing how the point stands when the top Ladies heading into Euros have already surpassed Gosviani's scores significantly so far this season, all but Kostner in GP, even without the extra element, and in the past four years, despite a reputation for being exceedingly weak technically, the Euro Ladies have mostly outscored her in TES.

    All that said, Gosviani is very close to the Worlds TES minimum, and she could do an identical program -- singling two jumps and leaving out the third combo -- except to add a good CH sequence and still make the World TES minimum.

    No, she didn't. Her base was 53.04 (compared to Gosviani's 44.58), and her FS TES was 63.22.

    Even in jumps, Kostner's base was 36.94 and total with GOE was 42.64, while Gosviani's base was 33.48 and her total was 33.01, since she lost 1.4 on the solo 3F. Gosviani's hardest jump element (3F/3T) was harder than Kostner's hardest jump element (3S/2T/2T), and Gosviani's two hardest jump elements were harder than Kostner's two hardest jump elements, but in total difficulty -- at least as determined in IJS and not 6.0 -- and, especially in quality, Kostner's jumping reigned supreme.
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2013
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  16. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    That is unfortunate. If the former is the goal, then the TES minimum requirement should really be also accompanied by an abolition or at least amendment to the per country rule.

    As is, the TES minimum requirement does no more than lighten up the burden for ISU in running the championships.
  17. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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    from GS list of juniors for nationals

    looks like Julia is in the list, hopefully she had enough rest and wins junior title
    will Julia be the first to defend a junior title if she wins again ?

    Boys:

    Alexey Genya
    Feodosiy Efremenkov
    Andrei Zuber
    Maurice Kvitelashvili
    Mikhail Kolyada
    Alexei Krasnozhon
    Murad Kurbanov
    Andrei Lazukin
    Artem Leger
    Konstantin Milyukov
    Alexander Petrov
    Adian Pitkeev
    Roman Savosin
    Alexander Samarin
    Vladimir Samoilov
    Vladislav Smirnov
    Vladislav Tarasenko

    Girls:

    Evgenia Gerasimova
    Valeria Yevseyeva
    Kristina Zaseeva
    Anastasia Kolomiets
    Julia Lipnitskaya
    Evgenia Medvedeva
    Natalia Ogoreltseva
    Arina Petrova
    Anna Pogorilaya
    Elena Radionova
    Seraphima Sakhanovich
    Maria Sotskova
    Maria Stavitskaia
    Uliana Titushkina
    Elizaveta Tursynbaeva
    Valentina Chernyshova
    Elizaveta Yushchenko

    Junior Pairs:

    Maria Vigalova - Egor Zakroev
    Kamilla Gainetdinova - Ivan Bich
    Valeria Grechukhina - Andrei Filonov
    Anastasia Gubanova - Alexey Sintsov
    Vasilisa Davankova - Andrei Deputat
    Anastasia Dolidze - Vadim Ivanov
    Alexander Minin - Alexander Korovin
    Vlada Mishina - Alexander Kurmachev
    Oksana Nagalaty - Maxim Bobrov
    Evgenia Tarasova - Vladimir Morozov
    Lina Fedorova - Maxim Miroshkin
    Arina Chernyavskaya - Antonio Souza-Cordeiro

    Junior Ice Dance:

    Kristina Baklanova - Andrei Bagin
    Ekaterina Bocharova - Anton Shibnev
    Anastasia Voronkova - Nikita Trushkov
    Sophia Evdokimova - Egor Bazin
    Valeria Zenkova - Valery Sinitsyn
    Evgenia Kosigina - Nikolai Moroshkin
    Valeria Loseva - Denis Lunin
    Daria Malaeva - Vladislav Ishin
    Daria Morozova - Mikhail Zhirnov
    Betina Popova - Yuri Vlasenko
    Maria Simonova - Dmitri Dragun
    Alexandra Stepanova - Ivan Bukin
    Elizaveta Tretyakova - Alexander Savin
    Eva Khachaturian - Igor Eremenko
    Anna Yanovskaia - Sergei Mozgov
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  18. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    ^^^ Source link (in Russian) is: http://www.fskate.ru/results/tour/1164.html (will cross-post updated link in the Russian Junior Nationals thread in Kiss and Cry)

    ETA:

    Preliminary entry list was posted by oleada earlier in this thread: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/sho...nter-2012-13&p=3780759&viewfull=1#post3780759

    MEN (new): Murad Kurbanov and Maurice Kvitelashvili
    No longer listed: Maxim Kovtun, Dmitry Mikhailov, Evgeni Vlasov

    LADIES (new): Julia Lipnitskaia and Valeria Yevseyeva
    No longer listed: Nikol Gosviani, Anna Shershak

    PAIRS (new): Arina Chernyavskaya - Antonio Souza-Cordeiro
    No longer listed: Alisa Smirnova - Vladimir Arkhipov
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2013
  19. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Junior_Figure_Skating_Championships#Ladies

    Yes, I think she's the first. World Juniors started in 1976.

    Adam Rippon did it in men's.
  20. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    That was the ISU's stated purpose in implementing it. And it's had some success. There are 36 Ladies' entries to Euros this season, whereas there were 43 last season, counting all the skaters who entered the Preliminaries.
  21. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    There are 36 nations represented among Euros Ladies according to the entry list, but there are 43 this season as well, because there are two entries for Finland, France, and Sweden and three for Italy and Russia. (The numbering on the entries list is confusing.)

    Last season the minimum scores were the same for all senior championships. For Ladies, they were 15 for the SP and 25 for the FS. This year for Euros/4C's they are 20 for the SP and 35 for the FS, which is a considerable jump, especially for the FS, yet the entries are the same, and the ISU didn't raise them to cut the field down to around 30. It looks like all 43 will skate the SP. The only two who have yet to establish both minimums are the two substitutes from Belarus.
  22. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    Pechalat and Bourzat are out of Euros. I know that this isn't Russian news, but it does bode well for Bobrova and Soloviev who have a much better chance at being European Champs!
  23. MissIzzy

    MissIzzy New Member

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    It's kind of turned into a must-win for them, hasn't it, though? Any team that beats them now makes a big statement by doing so, about both themselves and B&S.
  24. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    Well Cappellini and Lanotte could beat them. They've been getting really high tech scores. Hopefully Bobrova and Soloviev have made improvements in the offseason. I wonder whether they made a big change to their SD like Staviski said might happen.
  25. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    The SD at the gpf was a near tie and then soloviev falling really messed up their Fd to where c/l beat them 99 to 92 so no mistake is affordable from either team really. Or their mistakes can't be too bad like getting a level 1 on a step sequence.
  26. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    C&L have the pesky Italian habit of making big mistakes when it counts... so do B&S and I&K. It's going to be interesting to see who is mentally toughest. Kind of a preview of the post-Sochi landscape.
  27. Fancypancy

    Fancypancy Member

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    In Sochi Grand Prix Finals Morosov was drinking in a bar, and got into
    a fight with a Russian Man. The man knocked out his two front teeth.
  28. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Nikolai or Stanislav?
  29. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

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    Of course, the fall messed up Bobrova/Soloviev's FD, but not by so much. They did all the elements, and only the last two - the second step sequence and the choreographic lift - were done after the fall. They got level 2 on the step sequence - if Soloviev hadn't fallen, they most likely would have managed level 3, level 4 less likely. Also they lost a bit on the choreographic lift which they didn't do well. And then probably a couple of points on PCSs. So, I think that it would have been less than 99 anyway. Very likely somewhere around 97 again. It means that it's not just about obvious mistakes - it's also about levels and GOE.
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2013
  30. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think that Bobrova and Soloviev will mess up. They had that fall in Sochi and have worked since then on reigning in their emotions so that they can stay concentrated technically. (IMO it's a pity since up until the fall, their Sochi performance was the most passionate)
  31. morqet

    morqet Active Member

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    I don't know, they've had a number of stupid mistakes in the past as well, most notably at Worlds last year. It should be between C/L, B/S and I/K for the gold, but all of those teams are capable of making mistakes that could take them out of contention
  32. DaiKozOda

    DaiKozOda Active Member

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  33. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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  34. DaiKozOda

    DaiKozOda Active Member

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    No, it doesn't give any particular reason.
  35. quiqie

    quiqie Well-Known Member

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  36. Fancypancy

    Fancypancy Member

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  37. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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  38. rfisher

    rfisher Satisfied skating fan

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    2nd year in a row S/K have a chance at a European medal by default. Yeah them.

    :( no B/L
  39. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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    :confused:

    but there is Kavaguti-Smirnov
  40. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    Yes, there is no way S/K will medal unless K/S get injured too.

    Too bad about B/L.