From Russia With Love - Winter 2012/13

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Nov 27, 2012.

  1. rfisher

    rfisher Satisfied skating fan

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    I doubt that an individual skater's earned rights had anything to do with the decision. I suspect there is a great deal of pressure on the Russian skating fed to produce Olympic medals next year. :bribe: for facilities, coaches and skater support may well be decided based on their results. That coaching panel looked beyond Europeans next month and decided where were the best places to put their assets. If the Olympics weren't next winter and weren't in Russia, I suspect there would have been no issues here. I don't blame them. I'd have made the same choice. Menshov could have beaten Voronov, and secured his spot, but he didn't. Voronov and Kovtun may well tank at Europeans and the fed will go with Menshov for Worlds. It remains to be seen what will happen. Who knows but Menshov might skate at Sochi one more time if Russia gets a 2nd spot. I think that would be awesome, but the fed will send the skaters they think have the best chance of a medal regardless of who they are.
     
  2. babayaga

    babayaga Active Member

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    I don't get it. Why is Kovtun considered the second best skater in Russia all of the sudden? Why all the other skaters are supposed to prove they are worthy by beating each other and placing second and if they don't it's automatically Kovtun who is replacing them? Can anyone explain? I only see one reason - Tarasova and her influence.
     
  3. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Interesting, I didn't know that either. I wonder why that would be. Didn't people used to complain that the world standings favored Euro skaters, because of the points available for winning a senior B, of which most are held in Europe? I guess the 4CC skaters have the advantage of sending 3 skaters per country no matter what (whereas at Euros the countries have to earn spots) to pick up a few championship points but could that make such a difference? Or maybe it's that you can only count points for one championship per season, and many of the 4CC countries send a different set of skaters to 4CC and Worlds.
     
  4. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

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    Kovtun got all golds in JUNIOR competition. And in his junior events, he didn't get the huge PCS scores he got at RN.

    6.79 6.46 6.82 6.68 6.71 JGPF SP: stepout on the 3fe; all else clean
    7.82 7.57 7.64 8.00 7.86 RN SP: turnout on 4t, 3z↓, no combo

    7.14 6.71 7.21 7.04 6.89 JGPF FS: 4t+3t, 3a+3t, 3z, 3a, 3lo, 3fe, 3s+2t
    8.14 7.93 8.18 8.32 8.07 RN FS: 3s, 3t, 4t, 3a, 3lo, 3z, 3s+2t, 2a

    Kovtun was clearly held up on his PCS scores in both SP and FS at RN, or he would have finished much lower than fifth. Amazing that Tarasova holds that much influence over Russian judges.
     
  5. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Does Kovtun have another primary coach in addition to Tarasova? I didn't think she got so involved with individual skaters anymore; thought she was supposed to be more of a consultant to the entire team.
     
  6. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Elena Buianova, she coaches Sotnikova and Zaseeva as well, CSKA club. TAT is his secondary coach.
     
  7. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

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    International vs. national PCS have no significance. Kovtun finished 15 points ahead of Sezganov who was 6th at Nationals. I'm not sure one can make the claim that Kovtun finished too high at Nationals. I think he and his skating is being vilified to make a point.
     
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  8. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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    the thing is with Kovtun is they are plucking him prematurely for Seniors considering the state of Russian men
    he is a 2018 skater along with other younger Russian kids like Petrov and Samarin

    they are investing too much and putting all their eggs on Kovtun ? now where have we seen that before
    they should invest on the other kids too
    Samarin has nice flow on his jumps, 3lz-3T is solid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVFjS8Maa0w
    Petrov can get consistent on his 3A as he is only 13 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7Qi5733yHM
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2012
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  9. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    I don't think the three-per-country rule impacts the Men, because, at least recently, Japan, the US, and Canada would have earned three spots anyway, and the Chinese two most years, along with Kazakstan (Denis Ten). While the top European men may consistently beat all but the top US and Canadian men and the lesser-ranked Japanese Men and all of the Chinese Men, there's just not a lot of depth in European Men's skating, and a couple of 4ths alone in Senior B's won't cut it when the same men -- Amodio, Joubert, Verner, Brezina, Contesti and Van der Perren (until they retired), Fernandez, and, until he was injured, Schultheiss -- get multiple GP's and championship spots, along with a Senior B warm-up or two, racking up the rankings points along the way. There's usually a skater or two behind them, but not a big field.

    The US and Men, and apart from Chan, the Canadian Men might not be winning medals, but they do well enough at Worlds and 4C's to get GP events for Top 12 Worlds, Top 24 SB and WS, plus there are host spots. The Chinese Men have their host spots and 4C's, and the Japanese Fed has been assigning more of their competitive mid-rank skaters to Senior B's and has spread the 4C's wealth (until this year, with 4C's in Japan) to get more skaters those Top 24 SB scores. Senior B's are now more universally important for making minimum championships TES scores as well. The Russian Men have been more in the US Men's shape when Plushenko doesn't skate: intermittent brilliance, but a lot of mid-pack skating that earns GP and last spots at championships, in addition to host picks.
     
  10. Kasey

    Kasey Loving on babies!

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    It's not a matter of people not liking Kovtun; it's a matter that, he didn't earn this gift from TAT. As others pointed out, he's done fine in JUNIOR events; shorter length of programs, fewer elements required. If he was really up to competing with the big guns, he would have beaten Menshov at nationals, but he didn't. He couldn't pull it out at his own nationals, where he (and most) get joke PCS scores and he has one of the most influential of coaches in his corner. He couldn't get the job done. So yes, send him to some senior B's for experience before next year and send the skater who has had a consistent, if not stellar, season to the Europeans that most fans and skaters feel he has earned. If Plush and Voronov are there to assure the three spots for next season and the third place person is just someone to go along, why the hell not Menshov? And if the third place person is only going for their own personal glory, again, why the hell not Menshov? He's earned it by working so hard and long to the point that he's a more complete and consistent skater now than he was 10 years ago. Let the old man have his damn glory. And let the kid earn his chance, like everyone else.
     
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  11. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    All of this! :respec:
     
  12. jjane45

    jjane45 New Member

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    +1
     
  13. Katarzyna

    Katarzyna Well-Known Member

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    Another :respec:

    I like both, Kovtun and Menshov, but the way Russian Fed acted here is simply :blah: and not only embarassing for Russian Fed, but to some extent also for poor Kovtun.
    If I were him, I'd be scared to go to Euros, knowing that all my teammates think I didn't deserve that spot. :eek:
     
  14. Sylvia

    Sylvia Bring on the JGP & Sr B comps!

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    Oleg Nilov: "The Ministry of Sports should be involved in resolving the situation with Menshov": http://www.sports.ru/others/figure-skating/145751037.html?ext=yandex
    Nilov is the President of the Figure Skating Federation of St. Petersburg where Menshov trains.
    Via Google Translate:
    "I am the only member of the Executive Committee of Russian Figure Skating Federation voted against the decision to include in the national team for the European Championship Maxim Kovtun. I believe that everyone should be decided on sports lines.
    ...
    I might add that we, in preparing an appeal on behalf of the Federation of St. Petersburg to the Russian sports minister Vitaly Mutko with a request to defend the principle of sport in shaping the national team. Still, it is a representation of Russia at the world level. I believe that the Ministry of Sports should include in the resolution of this situation is not fair."

    ETA:
    Mutko: The question of replacing the skater Menshov to discuss Kovtun in January
    Article link in Russian: http://rsport.ru/figure_skating/20121229/637615527.html

    Here's an article by Andrei Simonenko (who criticized the federation's decision in his blog - link was posted earlier in this thread) that summarizes the Menshov-Kovtun situation: http://rsport.ru/figure_skating/20121228/637515956.html
    Via Google Translate: http://translate.google.com/transla...ort.ru/figure_skating/20121228/637515956.html
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2012
  15. Kelvster

    Kelvster Well-Known Member

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    Wow. It's turning out to be quite a story.

    What really p*ssed me off about the whole situation is tarasovas rather obvious influence on the decision.
    Figure skating is such a beautiful sport, but Politics makes it really quite ugly sometimes.
     
  16. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    Junior comps always have lower PCS. Look at Liza's scores last season. She had much lower PCS at the youth Olympics than she did at GPF or TEB
     
  17. Sylvia

    Sylvia Bring on the JGP & Sr B comps!

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    Sofia Biryukova finished 17th of 18 at Nationals - she wrote a blog about her Nationals experience in Sochi for rsport.ru and here is her final entry: http://rsport.ru/blog_rian/20121229/637536136.html
    Excerpt from the beginning via Google Translate:
     
  18. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    How does Nilov think he will be successful with his appeal so long as he was the only member of the Russian Federation's Executive Committee who voted against sending Kovtun to the European Championships and so long as the Federation didn't do anything illegal? While I do believe that giving Kovtun a spot in the Russian team for Euros is utterly unfair to Menshov, I am totally against politicians - read Mutko - being called upon to reverse decisions made by expert bodies. If the Russian figure skating community thinks the Coaching Council is a piece of garbage as Trankov put it, they should try to replace the CC members with people who can make decisions in line with the priciples of sports. JMHO.

    Not sure about that. Gachinski finished behind Oda and Mura at Skate Canada this season and behind Kozuka and Oda at Cup of Russia. And his score at the Russian Nationals doesn't indicate to me that he would be able to fight for the Worlds podium with elite skaters such as Takahashi and Hanyu. Or Chan for that matter.
     
  19. Moka-Ananas

    Moka-Ananas Man's Ruin

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    Though Mishin has a point...Gachinski placed higher than Kovtun at Nats.
     
  20. Kasey

    Kasey Loving on babies!

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    Although I don't think Gachinski deserves to go to Euros anymore than Kovtun does, if all they are looking for is youth, then yes, he would deserve to go first, since he too finished higher than Kovtun at nationals; and that is while Gachinski is having a really crappy season.
     
  21. Jeschke

    Jeschke Well-Known Member

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    thanks sylvia for that

    so, she just excuses for her performances and 'promises' to fight and come back?
    hell yeah! i love her and will root for her as long as she's out there, go on Sofia!
     
  22. Katarzyna

    Katarzyna Well-Known Member

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    He certainly has in view of Kovtun! But on the other hand the totally denies the fact that Menshov placed ahead of Gachinski twice this season. :confused:

    Looks like another famous coach is now using his political influence to dump menshov – this time for Gachinski. Some people really have no shame :blah:

    Personally I find Mishin’s remarks about Gachinski being the only skater able to beat elite ones pretty much laughable taking into account Gachinski’s performances at GP, where he not only lost to elite skates, but almost to any other skaters competing there. :rofl:

    Maybe it’s really about time that the Ministry of Sports takes a close look at how things work at Russian Figure Skating Federation. :shuffle:

    I adore and respect Tarasova, Mishin, Morozov and their likes for their achievements, but it might be about time to show them some limits as far as politicking of their skaters is concerned. It obviously doesn’t any favours for Russian figure skating, given the current situation it actually led to

    - a scandal being discussed in the press even in international skating forums thus harming Russian Fed’s reputation in general
    - a revolt of Russian skaters against their fed
    - a split within Russian Fed
    - a call for ministry of sports taking action

    which certainly does not benefit skaters in their preparation for Euros and moreover really gives a pretty bad picture of Russian Fed and the influence of certain coaches on their decisions in general. :(

    Thanks Tarasova – hope it was worth it! :revenge:
     
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  23. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    The decision might not have made the most sense, but it made some sense in addition to the political aspect. (A year ahead of Sochi, they chose a young, rising starlet over their underachieving last starlet and a journeyman, and are giving him experience in a senior championship.). They just didn't do it by "encouraging" the scores enough to let the results speak for themselves.

    It could be worse, for example, the French Fed where there are no Mishins or Kudryatsevs to counter the Gailhauguets :scream:
     
  24. lulu

    lulu New Member

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    Aww. ((Sofia)) Thanks for the excerpt, I love her attitude. :) Best wishes to her for next year.
     
  25. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

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    Eh, I won't consider it a true revolt unless skaters refuse to compete or hop to another country. Anything else is just twitter blabber. Alexander Majorov, anyone? Whatever happened in that twitter rampage case?
     
  26. Domshabfan

    Domshabfan Well-Known Member

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    I would not trust anything Trankov says especially since he is part of Morozov group. I believe Trankov is doing dirty job for morzov especially since kovtun was kicked out of the Morozov group and he is doing really well. On top of that remember Kovtun comment about Morozov was ignored him when he greated him at the Russia cup event or something. So the bad blood between Kovtun and Morozov is very clear. I feel whole issue is Russian skating federation power playing out. I feel actually sorry for Kovtun over Menshov, Kovtun has bright future ahead of him. I hope he kick some ass at the europeans.
     
  27. zotza

    zotza Active Member

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    What is strange is that Trankov and Kovtun seem to be in friendly terms. And it's not only Trankov, Soloviev was also very active in all this,even posing with Menshov and all.And he is no part of Morosov group.
     
  28. kittyjake5

    kittyjake5 Well-Known Member

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  29. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    I think the Russians are looking to the future and that is why Kovtun is going to Euro's. Isn't Menshov about 30?
     
  30. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    I thought the nomination made a lot of sense.

    (1) Plushenko is a sure-in so long as he is healthy.

    (2) They can only afford to send one of Voronov vs Menshov because they both over rely on jumps and have virtually nothing else to fall back on. Also, they have both skated well and close to clean in the past and still didn't place well. At least Voronov medalled at the GPs and actually beat Menshov by some margin at Natonals.

    (3) the up and comer - between Gachinski who hasn't skated well at all for nearly a full year and doesn't really skate well all that often, and Kovtun who has been undefeated internationally so far this year and who only narrowed lost to Gachinski at Nationals, the choice is clear.

    If Russia regains a spot for next year, I think the cleverest team would be Plushenko and Kovtun, and the Federation is right to work towards that by giving Kovtun senior exposure. If only China would give Yan Han the same chance instead of having those Guan Jinlins and Wu Jialiangs go to 4CCs and place bottom of the top ten for the 10th time.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2012