From Russia with love - Summer through Autumn 2013

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by allezfred, Aug 18, 2013.

  1. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    You are missing the point. My point was not comparing Europeans with worlds, or comparing the results from two different years from worlds. My point was that it is not so rare that someone would have one bad competition; one off when the things just don't work. You said that it is rare, I provided examples, you said that it is rare in dance so I provided examples with dancers. It is not so rare. The excitement/nerves/adrenalin just can mess things up.
     
  2. N_Halifax

    N_Halifax Well-Known Member

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    What I'm dying to find out are what Alena Leonova's new programs are. She's been quite hush hush. :)
     
  3. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Only if the team skates well though. That was the context. At 2013 worlds I/k were terrible.

    It messed things up so bad that out of 20 teams they were 16th in TES. That's far beyond one mistake! And was almost unprecedented! That just a total overhaul including coaching change was probably necessary.
     
  4. Moka-Ananas

    Moka-Ananas Man's Ruin

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    Alright, back to the test skates: What do we know about the programs of the Junior pairs or ice dancers? What are Vygalova/Zakroev's programs?
     
  5. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    I am not talking about one mistake but about one completely messed up competition. (which means many mistakes within that one competition). If you are skating, you may find out that if you make one mistake you may not be able to get over it and the more you are thinking about it while still skating within that particular competition, the more you start messing up. And then it is just complete mess and now matter how hard you are trying, nothing works. I am not an elite skater, I started skating only as an adult, but once at a competition I made a huge mess of it too. Although I could do the program so well and have done hundreds of run throughs without any problem including all jump elements (I think I was supposed to do one jump on its own and three jump combinations - only singles), on this particular competition on the first jump I got suddenly nervous that I couldn't bend my knees. There wasn't any particular reason for me being so nervous, it wasn't my first competition and I knew I could do it well. My knees got completely stiff. If you can't bend, you can't jump...To be able to go up you need to go tiny bit down first, which comes from the knee bend. I have skated the whole program at the competition without being able to do any jump at all! After that first attempted jump I completely panicked and after the second attempted jump I was so shocked that the rest of the program did not have a chance at all. Something similar sometimes happens to elite skaters. I/K obviously did not have to do the jumps, but if they went to the competition knowing that they can potentially do well, then messed up on first or second element, then panicked that now they can't afford to make more mistakes and the more they were thinking about it, the worse they skated. Skating is connected a lot to confidence; if you loose it, suddenly you skate so much worse.

    Besides, I wouldn't be so concentrating on the fact that once, during one competition I/K was 16th in TES out of 20 teams. For example, Carolina Kostner had worlds 2009 where she did not land one clean triple in her FS. One can say that most of novices have triples and a senior should be able to land at least some. Does that mean that she is a rubbish skater? It doesn't, she just messed up one competition. Made one mistake, got nervous and then did not manage to regain control and the mistakes followed one after the other. We are human, we are not all perfect.
     
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  6. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    Actually Carolina has had many melt downs in competition performances. Worlds 2006 which I attended, was among them, and that's just one example. She went through many years of completly bombing the LP. It's only in the recent 3 years that she has learned to deliver when she needed to. Her artistry also developed at the same time. A skater doesn't have to be perfect in singles, but in ice dance there is not a lot of room for errors. It's possible that I&K will be late bloomers like Carolina, Shizuka, Paul Wylie. Unfortunately I can't think of an ice dance team right now that was a late bloomer. IMO a lot of the criticism of I&K has been for their choice of programs, rather than one bad competition. I am hoping that it was an aberration and they learned from it, so we can look forward to better performances this season. They are wonderful skaters and I would love to see them realize their potential, like Carolina realized hers.
     
  7. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    I don't think anyone can call I/K late bloomers, considering that they have already won junior worlds and have been medalling at GP. Late bloomer I imagine someone who has never won competition and then suddenly in their 20s medals at seniors. Let's say, Menshov. Totally unknown and then suddenly started placing high within Russian senior nationals.
     
  8. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    Not necessarily. There are skaters that showed early promise but struggled later, then they rose up in the their mid twenties and reached the top. I call that a late bloomer. Winning junior worlds is no gurantee of a great senior career. Many junior world champs didn't make it in the seniors. Even an early world medal does not mean that skater cannot be a late bloomer. He/she could fall off for years before coming back. Hard to tell if that's how I&K's career would be, but I just wanted to explain what a late bloomer could be. Shizuka was definitely one. So is Carolina, in spite of her early bronze & silver at worlds. She was still struggling but finally found her groove after the 2010 Olympics. Paul Wylie, Maria Butyrskaya are other examples of late bloomers.
     
  9. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    That's a good personal illuminating story! With some good insights! It was one bad competition for I/k and they have apparently taken that route of Believing It was a one off because they seemingly have made no changes to any of their skating. Of course they werent at the recent test skates as no morozov students were so I am just assuming because they're still with him for whatever personal or professional reasons. With the program they were skating they were left with no possible room for errors and when they totally botched the spin and then a lift and then totally went down the tubes maybe a different program and training environment would have been helpful. But their professional is all wrapped up in the personal of one skater on the team.
     
  10. morqet

    morqet Well-Known Member

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    They have made changes to their team - Morozov is the primary coach, but this summer they have also worked with Shpilband and Grishuk is now a permanent part of their coaching team. And they weren't at the recent test skates because they weren't the official test skates - Gachinski was not there, nor was Plushenko, R/T, the top pairs teams and so on.
     
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  11. quiqie

    quiqie Well-Known Member

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    SP - "Tango of Vampires" (Aurore du Mal by Benny Richter, Marc Terenzi)
    LP - Giselle
     
  12. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Seems like Morozov is like poison! You can have a big glass of one drink but one drop of poison and it's all over!! Maybe Grishuk can be helpful. I actually forgot about that because I only read as a quote from Laironov a few months ago! But the whole issue of the poison still being present just puts the whole thing in jeopardy. They were able to have some good results despite Ghost and he's still around. LOL now it is like could Grishuk be the antidote?

    Because I saw some vidoes of all skaters but I/K it's like their not doing anything! R/T, Plushenko, Gachinski all recently seen in videos!
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2013
  13. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    That's a bit melodramatic to compare Morozov to a poison. A few seasons ago he was the most successful Russian coach (measured by the results of his students at worlds). With skating, one moment you are on the top, the next minute you are down. The thing is, you won't stay down for a long (especially if you are well known Russian coach - their Federation would not let such resource go to waste), so in a few seasons he may be again at the top. I do understand why some posters here don't like him, but he seems to be liked by his students, he seems to be doing a good job as a coach generally (yes, I know the last worlds were not successful for any of his students, but there was plenty of successful competitions to balance that). So although I may not agree with his personal life, I wouldn't go as far as comparing him to a poison.
     
  14. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    It's very possible his role as a coach reached its worst peak In 2013 like the Kostner 2009 worlds or Verner 2008 worlds. That every program he did and all his skaters did poorly at one point or another or the biggest event of the season. Leonova was poor all season and had to switch programs, and Takahashi did poorly and switched programs, and I/K did well but had a program so criticized and then failed at worlds. Amodio was pretty bad all season and had a peak at Euros. Voronov was silver at Russian nationals but bad euros. Then Amodio and Voronov left. It was so bad his 2012-2013. Maybe he was just totally off and that would lead people to leave. Like Kostner left Huth and Verner left too at the ends of those season. Maybe he'll have a comeback!!
     
  15. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, reut. Meanwhile, I've also watched the part of Kovtun's FS which is available on youtube and I'm afraid I can't praise either the skater or the choreographer. If the intention of Tchernyshev was to make Kovtun skate with freedom and abandonment, I would say Kovtun doesn't seem to have the skills yet for the job. While I really appreciated the energy he put into the performance, I thought he tended to overdramatize the movement and become frantic. Maybe he'll learn to calm down a little as the season progresses.

    Re Sotnikova's Ex: Piazzola's music is a blend of tango and jazz and I personally got neither a tango feel nor a jazz feel from her program.:shuffle:
     
  16. DobrinFan

    DobrinFan Well-Known Member

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    Yeah you're not supposed to ;)
     
  17. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    Why do you care what background music she uses for her crossovers into jumps and spins? :lol:
     
  18. Jeschke

    Jeschke Well-Known Member

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    polina agafonova at test skates

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9t9nFDYYl0

    feels like she is around for such a long tim. i actually like this program; seems like she really wants to fight to prove something. back from 3s3t to 3lz3to. will be nice to see how she can survive this season with all those younger girls.
     
  19. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    I don't think she can survive with those younger girls. Unfortunately they are better. Her chance was last year. If she managed to stand out (for example at nationals) like Gosviani did, she would have a chance to be sent this season for senior B competitions and if she did well there, she would establish herself as decent senior (perhaps not the same as Sotnikova/Tuktamysheva/Lipnitskaya, but at least a decent senior. Unfortunately she did not qualify last year for senior nationals and at junior nationals she did not particularly managed to stand out. In juniors there is such a high level of competition within Russia and it is so many of them who have 3Lz-3T and 3F that I think it will be harder to stand out in juniors than in seniors. I think only one or two competitors at junior nationals did not have triple triple.
     
  20. Moka-Ananas

    Moka-Ananas Man's Ruin

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    I just watched Kovtun's new FS. The version he showed at the test skate is an abridged one, right? He was finished after barely 3:40.
     
  21. robinhood

    robinhood Active Member

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    He started from the middle section of his program, I believe.
    I find him much improved, his posture and carriage are tons better and Tchaikovsky surprisingly suits him very much. He looks in terrific form jumpwise too
     
  22. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Agree, last year with Leonova struggling and Sotnikova, Tuktamysheva running hot and cold, Shelepen being injured and switching to Israel, Korobeynikova struggling and Biryukova injured and struggling even more, there were chances for new ladies to establish themselves as contenders, and Pogorilaya and Gosviani were the ones who broke through and took advantage of the opportunity. Due to this, it will be tough for Agafonova to break through now. Pogorilaya and Gosviani really seized the opportunity with both hands and even now they are just in the conversation regarding top ladies for ISU championships, not even main contenders really.
     
  23. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

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    As DobrinFan wrote, you are not supposed to :shuffle:. In an interview Adelina's coach described her as a bird in this program, but there were people who felt like she is a butterfly. I too get this image - a butterfly first flying free, and then loosing it's wings and ending it's life slowly (or not so slowly). It's sad how people complain about the "same old" all the time, and then when someone dares to do something unusual, something different from the norm/canon, they just don't get it, and are not favorably disposed at all. Okay, maybe that's not you - maybe you are not one of those who complain about "the same old" (I don't really remember from your posts, sorry). That's just a general observation. But it does seem like you lack imagination a bit. Sorry for saying that, I just find it a bit sad.
     
  24. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    :rolleyes:
     
  25. falling_dance

    falling_dance D. Murakami's Newest Fan

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    I agree that those last two sentences were uncalled for.
     
  26. alchemy void

    alchemy void it's time for the perkolator

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    Random thoughts:

    Agafanova looks good. Obviously has grown a lot, the jumps, skating, and interpretation have all become bigger and more secure. I would run her out for a JGP and see how she does. It really isn't necessary to have every 13 year old girl in the country skate immediately on the JGP. Maybe Agafanova can mature into a solid skater.

    And I would have loved I/K's Ghost FD from last year on anyone else for the sheer trashy/campy quality it brought, and you've got to admit, it WAS different. However, I/K are so talented and have so much charisma and the potential to really shake up the snoozefest high-level ice dancing is these days. That's why I love to 'trash' them and Morozov. :smoking:


    I secretly still hold out hope Leonova shows up with kick-ass, over-the-top programs, and has a successful fall. Unfortunately I think there are way too many factors not in her favor, but she still is one of my favorite ladies skaters, therefore I still am holding out hope. :)
     
  27. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    For Leonova to make the team, she will have to win gold or silver (bronze won't cut it) at every GP and GPF, and win at least a silver at the Europeans, and the other top Russian girls will have to be off the podium in two of these competitions. It's a very low probability occurrence.
     
  28. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't mind if she returned to her witches program. I loved that one. But even the best program is not going to help if she is not landing edge jumps...
     
  29. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    You forgot to add that she has to place high (medal) at their nationals, otherwise she may not even be sent to Europeans. Like last year.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2013
  30. Jeschke

    Jeschke Well-Known Member

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    problem is, the ladies/men/etc. should have 2 decent competitions at nationals and at europeans to even get to sochi, where they should skate fabolous again.
    we know all voronov for example, 2nd at nationals 09/10, europeans meltdown and borodulin got his spot.

    so i think chances of the established skaters like leonova aren't that bad for making the team, if the youngster fail to make impact at europeans, where they may be sent.

    for me personally, i would prefer those grown ladies (as i said a thousand times) like makarova, biryukova, leonova and even agafonova on the team than all those jumping beans. makarova on, could be really great and epic (i know, this happens rarely) but those others are just greta jumpers.

    not to speak of LaTuk and Sotnikova, i like their development until now and hope they will grow and get the time they need.