From Russia With Love - Spring into Summer 2013

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Mar 17, 2013.

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  1. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    The issue is not neccessarily what happens after Euros, but what happens before it. Euros has always been the selection event for Worlds for Russia. Had Menshov beaten Gachinski in 2011, he would have likely been Russia's man at Worlds that year. But the main issue, I think, was that this year Menshov was not even given that chance, passed over for the selection event. The RuFed made things unneccesarily difficult and even more painful when they rabbited on all that rubbish about the Russian Cup Final. Mishin's main issue, I suspect, was with the Euros selection; he was very much in favour of Menshov going.

    As to the budding Gachinski/Kovtun rivaly: Gachinski is already up 1-0. But at this point I am happy (and I am sure he is too) to forgo the rivalry stuff and get focus on getting back on track.
    Maofan7 and (deleted member) like this.
  2. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    I prefer Gachinsky, not Kovtun, Gachi is a beautiful skater. I hope his beautiful jumps will be succesful again.
  3. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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  4. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    V&T are great, but I have a feeling they would do well with almost any coaching. I'm not sure how much can be attributed to Mozer, though she does a great job. I remember a quote Platov had about V&M/Igor - with talent like that, the coach's job is mainly not to spoil it. That describes V&T as well. Not sure if Mozer will be able to help skaters who need to improve fundamentals, but it'll be interesting to see.
  5. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    I agree with that, I would like to see her take an average team and make them something great (verses a great team and keep them going) she never did that with her other teams.
  6. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    I think there are several things here: Volosozhar and Trankov were not an established team like V/M who had skated together since they were children and given the same, basic, fabulous fundamentals. It could have taken them far longer to harmonized their throw and twist techniques, which they said were quite different when they paired, and it sounds like Morosov was in charge of that. Add in a personal relationship, and V/T could have crashed and burned.

    I think Mozer knows when to step in and when to keep her ego out of it and how to create a good working environment, and she looks outside as well as in for excelence in pairs skating. I don't know whether anyone can make a jumper out of Bazarova, but I think Mozer will create a good environment in which to train, and I think the competition will help B/L and S/K.
  7. shah

    shah Well-Known Member

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    I'm not convinced... I do hope S/K will not lose their voidiness. Please steer clear of His Oiliness crapography! [if there are plans to make him their new choreographer...]
  8. Jeschke

    Jeschke Well-Known Member

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    yeah, hope that too.
    i really liked their past programs, hope the will continue with programs like that.
    they always have something special until now.

    and btw: what about the russian rule not to change coaches in the pre-olympic and olympic season? seems to be some serious rule :D
  9. Katarzyna

    Katarzyna Well-Known Member

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    While I'm convinced Menshov was robbed and treated just incredibly unfair by his Fed, I think Mishin’s support for Menshov should be taken with a grain of salt. – He knows that Menshov will retire next year, but Kovtun will stay and actually get stronger every year. So presumably he was voting against Gachinski’s main rival for the upcoming years. That’s one of the reasons why I found it pretty ridiculous that such decision is made by coaches, who of course also pursue their own interests. :(

    I also think there is some irony in it when Mishin expresses hopes that team selection will be objective next years – it’s not as if he never tried to press his skaters in the team by politics (and he actually succeeded at times). He is just a clever fox! :puppet:
  10. oleada

    oleada Well-Known Member

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    I really hope not. Mozer's junior teams always had original choreography, so I have hope on that end.
  11. rfisher

    rfisher Satisfied skating fan

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    The biggest advantage for B/L and S/K is that Mozer has the top team in Russia at the moment and a lot of resources and support they won't get with any other coach or team.
  12. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    One can argue that they didn't change the coach in the pre-olympic and olympic season; they changed the coach between the seasons! :lol: (I suppose, you can get around any rule if you have enough imagination)
  13. morqet

    morqet Active Member

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  14. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    Very interesting.
  15. Jeschke

    Jeschke Well-Known Member

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    the first one to jump off the team. no surprise, that some may be going, don't expected it would be voronov. so, alena following and miki is bouncing back :D
  16. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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  17. babayaga

    babayaga Active Member

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    I agree about S/K, hope they stay interesting and unusual. About the rule - I think it sounds like "skaters are not allowed to switch coaches without the approval of the federation". So they can, but they have to ask Piseev first :)
  18. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    To be fair, Stolbova and Klimov were very strong while they were at junior level, but since they came to seniors (the last two seasons) they became a bit unpredictable and inconsistent. Especially the last season they quite stagnated. Although their bronze medal at Europeans 2012 was a great achievement, this year they did not deliver when it counted. 3rd at GP is reasonable, but then 5th at GP is a bad result for someone who managed to be 3rd at Europeans in 2012. And their Europeans 2013 - 6th -3 places lower than the previous year... anyway, I am glad that they decided to make a change. I am not sure whether Mozer is the best coach for them, because she wasn't very well known with her teaching results before she started with Volosozhar-Trankov and it is possible that Volosozhar-Trankov would have this results with anyone. On the other hand I am not saying that Mozer isn't good. At least she has a chance to prove herself and we will see. Still, for Stolbova and Klimov it is better to make a change (even if it may potentially not work out) rather than repeating the same if there is no improvement. They have nothing to lose.
  19. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    S/K didn't earn their way to Euros in 2012 they were sent there due to the surgery of Smirnov. Not only were K/S not there but neither was S/S. If S/S were there, they would have been 4th and if K/S were there, they would have been home. Same goes for their nationals medals as well. They have had some great opportunities at the cost of sick and injured skaters, I hope they do a lot with the move but I'm not holding out hope, maybe they will get a better twist.
  20. Katarzyna

    Katarzyna Well-Known Member

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    That’s surely an advantage. But both couples will have to be prepared to train with their closest competitors from the same country in direct surrounding. That’s not everybody’s cup of tea. ;)
    But let's wait and :watch:

    Thank you for the info morqet. I’m really curious who will be his new coach? Maybe he will go back to Urmanov? :confused:

    Very unlikely. Possibly after 2014, but it would not make sense to retire 1 year before Olympic Games in Sochi with Plushenko not being a secure bet for the spot after major spinal surgery, Menshov as usual dumped by the own Fed, Gachinksi being out of shape for most season and Kovtun having shown that he was not ready to compete at Worlds level in Seniors. It’s not that there is absolutely no chance for him to make the team and Olympics in Russia are for sure worth giving it another try. :D
  21. Katarzyna

    Katarzyna Well-Known Member

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    Somehow I think Gachinski should have switched coaches about one or two years ago. Mishin for sure is a great coach if it comes to technique, but he openly admitted that other skaters step aside when Plushenko is around. It don`t think that`s mentally healthy surrounding for Gachinsky. As soon as Plushenko is making a comeback, the poor guy has to step aside and his coach’s main focus is Plushy and as soon as he was taking a break from eligible skating, everybody seemed to demand perfect competitive results from Gachinski which reflect a No. 1 position in the team.

    That can`t be good for a skater who is still developing – one day the other guy, one day the expected leading man in team who has to produce. But the problem of course is that it’s difficult to find an alternative, who teaches good technique but is also powerful in terms of politics. Cause I`m pretty sure Russian Federation would not be very fond of such a coaching change. :(
  22. Eislauffan

    Eislauffan Well-Known Member

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    Russian Fed general director V. Piseev said that Stolbova/Klimov have not (yet) switched to N. Mozer.
    http://rsport.ru/figure_skating/20130403/654819908.html
    He said that the question is under consideration and that the Figure Skating Federation of St. Petersburg has to look at it.

    Well, I guess if they want to switch and Mozer takes them, they can't be stopped in the end. The Petersburg Federation doesn't want to loose them obviously, because then they'll have only Kawaguchi/Smirnov left. Their junior teams fell apart and I am not sure if Gerboldt/Enbert exist anymore.
  23. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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    going all in one to Mozer wont be good, she is getting way too much credit when V/T were already amazing to pair with

    meanwhile for JGP might be possible to continue another skater to sweep the top podium: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zW92WN4fBa8
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  24. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    S/K did earn their way to Europeans. They were the first substitutes because of their results at nationals. If they were not good at nationals, someone else could have been sent.

    I know that S/S wasn't there, so with S/S there they would have been 4th, but it is how things happen in life. When Chan won his world championships, he didn't say "I won because ...(list of previous world and Olympic champions)...are not here". And Carolina Kostner didn't say last year "I won but only because Yu-Na Kim is not here". People remember a skater for their achievement, not for who else did not compete at that one competition. They were lucky, but they still managed to beat in that competition everyone apart of 2 other Russian pairs.
  25. Katarzyna

    Katarzyna Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for the update, Eislauffan. :)

    Talking about skaters based in St. Petersburg are there any news on Ksenia Makarova?
  26. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Russia has a few very talented young girls coming, but this season it won't be that easy. US response to Russian dominance at junior level is "Let's grow our own Polina". And their Polina will be eligible to JGP next season; she won their junior nationals and she has two triple-triple combinations in her FS, so she has the technical content to fight with the young Russians. The question is whether she is consistent. It will depend who can manage their nerves and perform under pressure.

    (By the way, their Polina is also of Russian background - after her mother.)
  27. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    V/T weren't a pair in anything but name when they went to Mozer, and they said they had different technique on the major elements. They didn't just spring from the thigh of Zeus or meet across fields with her in a flowery summer dress like in a feminine hygiene commercial.
  28. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    I'm not taking about other skaters.

    S/K were alternates who were lucky enough to get an opportunity to go to Euros (not once but twice) that they wouldn't have had normally. Same with G/E in 2011.

    It's not like they beat K/S to get there and S/S for the medal. They were lucky to get the bronze when they did and have K/S and S/S to thank for it. You made it sound like going from 3rd to 6th was a huge fall from grace when in reality they wouldn't have been good enough to go themselves without the misfortune of others.

    Maybe that will change this year and they can rightfully earn a spot only time will tell.

    They were only a pair in name, but both were very accomplished skaters. It's not like they were novice/juniors who didn't know their right from left and Moser pulled them up to a world gold medal from scratch. Both of them were 4th in the world at one point in time with different partners and coaches. I really think any coach would have done well for them. Having to vary the technique of good skaters who already know how to do a throw is a far cry from teaching skaters who have never done one before.

    I would like to see how far she can take a brand new pairs team.
  29. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    I never argued otherwise that they were great pairs skaters who had success with other partners.

    Sometimes it's more difficult to have people unlearn skills than it is to teach them new ones. V/T adjusted quite quickly, but there was no guarantee, and that they became a couple was a risk.

    I disagree that any coach would have done well with them by definition: I think Mozer gave them a good place to re-adjust and deal with the pressure. From the moment they were announced they were already being touted as the saviors of Sochi and the great Russian pairs tradition.

    Fine, but that's generally not the way the system has worked in Russia, and they seem to be getting back to having developmental coaches feeding to top coaches.
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2013
  30. SLIVER

    SLIVER New Member

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    I totally agree, I am sure she has done a great job but V/T were extremely talented (two of the most talented) and experienced skaters around, it certainly doesn't mean she can work miracles with B/L and S/K. Besides, 3 top pairs before Olympics, really?? I wouldnt be v happy if I were V/T.
  31. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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    one of the three will be left out, S/K ?? maybe after 2014 their time will come
    why I'm puzzles they didn't go to Moskvina because she will retire ??? :confused:
  32. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    The highlighted part of sentence can be applied to most pairs at Europeans and 4CC. The weak pairs are 'lucky enough' that there is no one stronger in their country, and the stronger pairs are 'lucky enough' that either they were not inured, or that someone in their country is not even better than them...a lot in elite skating is about luck. Pair A who is generally better than a pair B may fall in a competition that is used as a qualifying competition for Europeans and then pair B is sent instead... No system is ever completely fair, and a lot of it is to do with luck. The bottom line is that S/K were good enough to be alternates which means that they were 4th in a country who has a very strong pair program. As you saw, being 4th in such country can mean that you are actually stronger than most countries number 1. If they were not good enough to be fourth in their country and lucky that another pair above them couldn't go, they wouldn't go. But to claim that they didn't qualify is incorrect. They did qualify and therefore they went and competed (and got bronze medal).
  33. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    S&K were lucky with the WDs in 2012 but they did make the most of it by winning a medal, and it wasn't a medal by default. They had to beat Berton/Hotarek who are a decent team (GP medalists). This year they skated worse, losing to B&H and also James/Cipres. S&K absolutely could have won bronze again this year. K&S did not skate well at all and this would have been an opportune time to beat them and try to get a Worlds ticket. So yes, I think S&K regressed this year.

    I don't think V&T will mind the extra pairs. This is the group that swept Euros in 2012 and Maxim was beyond thrilled. I think he'll just love mentoring two younger pairs, sharing his wisdom... he likes to talk and feels he has very important things to say. ;) I know B&L beat them in the GPF LP, but they're hardly a credible threat to V&T.
  34. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    Not even close to being the same thing. The best in the country is the best in the country-not 4th place or in S/K case not chosen to represent and only sent on a technicality.
  35. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    :lol: How true.

    A technicality is when someone didn't sign the right paperwork by a deadline. An injury substitution is a regular occurance that's codified in the entry/selection process.
  36. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    That's not a technicality, that's irresponsibility.

    As bad as it is to have a teammate injured, S/K were the recipients of their misfortune. S/K were not “selected” to the Euros team based on their skating V/T, K/S and B/L were, only by default two years in a row, were they selected to go at the last minute and neither time did the fed see fit to send them to worlds even with a bronze medal in their pocket.

    Technicality, luck, “a regular occurrence that's codified in the entry/selection process” whatever you choose to define it...it would be great to see them actually get a spot on the team without waiting around to see if something happens to a teammate who place above you.
  37. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    It is pretty common to be sent to 4CC/Europeans/worlds because someone better was injured. Pechalat-Bourzat were injured, another French dance couple went to Europeans instead. When US pair No 1 was injured this season, their number 2,3 and 4 went to compete. The same way someone from Canada got lucky that Weaver-Poje couldn't go to 4CC because she was injured. That doesn't mean that whoever replaced them went there purely on technicality. they had to deserve it! They had to meet the qualifying score given by ISU and be the next in the line in their country. Would you say that Mirai Nagasu got her second GP event on technicality, that actually she didn't qualify? Because she got it only because someone else withdrew.

    What you are saying (the highlighted part in your post) sound pretty arrogant, because injuries are a normal part of competitive skating, and I believe that every skater at some stage of their career benefited from someone else's withdrawal. There is no shame in it. It would be different if Stolbova went and whacked any of her team mates over their head to get their spot...but she didn't.
  38. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Your original comment was that it's not like dropping from 3rd to 6th at Euros was a fall from grace because they only got that 3rd due to withdrawals. That was after hanca's statement that they have been inconsistent in seniors, dropping from bronze to a 6th place. I agree that their bronze was possible due to withdrawals, but they did drop in 2013, behind the Italians and the French, so I agree with hanca that their results in 2013 were disappointing for them. B&H were not great at Euros 2013 and it was within S&K's abilities to beat them. They are not performing up to their potential in the GP either, so I think a coaching change is not a bad idea.
  39. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Because no bureaucracy has ever send the wrong paperwork or indicated the wrong deadline.
  40. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Maria Sotskova won the SP (66.14) with the above performance.

    Here's is Sotskova's 2nd place FS (122.11) from the same competition: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXNH46FUXfE
    Sotskova placed 2nd overall (186.25).

    Results page: http://fsrussia.ru/upl/results/1213/nno2013/index.htm
    ETA: This is the Nationals for singles skaters "born in 1996 and younger; partners in pair skating and ice dancing - born in 1994 and younger."

    Evgenia Medvedeva placed 1st overall (188.94). Her 3rd place SP (60.28): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VOweXUledE ; her 1st place FS (128.66): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vPZc8nqAHc

    Natalia Ogoreltseva's 2nd place SP (62.44): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jr3SYi77RAs

    All 3 girls will be old enough to debut on the JGP this fall, I believe?

    ETA that I started a new thread in Kiss and Cry for this competition: 2013 Russian Championship (younger skaters), April 1-4
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2013
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