From Russia With Love - Spring into Summer 2013

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Mar 17, 2013.

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  1. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    http://rsport.ru/interview/20130324/652950186.html
    Interview with Bobrova and Soloviev
    One thing that they said is that they always want to be unique. They don't want to do Carmen and have people compare theirs with others.
    Makes complete sense because when they were with Kustarova, people said that they needed to be different and more unique.
     
  2. bek

    bek Guest

    I actually wasn't talking about whether she was an import or not, because I don't know anything about her. I was more commentating no a federation supporting its skaters. However it seems like this was a decision by others outside the federation.
     
  3. Sylvia

    Sylvia Bring on the JGP & Sr B comps!

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  4. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    So he's going to get injured soon. Pity
     
  5. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    I think the whole "you may not train foreigners" really means outside of the men's event, you may not train any foreigner who is competitive for a podium spot.

    It seems like they aren't worried about men's event for some reason.
     
  6. TAHbKA

    TAHbKA Well-Known Member

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    Of course not. The Olympic size rink exists in Metulla for about 15 years now. I would expect that rink to train and develop such skaters. As it did in the past (Zaretskis, Krasnapolski etc)

    Not quite. I.e. for you to receive an Israeli passport it would take about a year of living in Israel and having a proof you spent that year in Israel. This is how Zaretskis, Sakhnovski, Gudina/Beletski and even Sokolova/Sokolov, Krasnapolski, Rogov became israelis and gained israeli passports. Of course Schreiber, Chait and Zilberberg had them being born in Israel. Am not quite sure how much time had Montalbano spent in Israel (her sister had, am not sure about Dani herself). But am quite certain neither Shelepen nor Bychenko spent a year in Israel to get the passport in the usual routine.

    None of the local skaters is natural born and that's fine. But it would be nice if her connection to Israel was slightly more than a visit for a week once in her life.

    No idea. I really have no idea how the Irish citizenship and passport are obtained. For the Israeli passport you have to live here for a year. That's a law.

    I really hope someone like Shelepen will not meet the creteria and will not be sent to the Olympics. I don't want the NOC to go there on her back, I want figure skating in Israel to be a sport and not a joke.
     
  7. casken

    casken Well-Known Member

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    I agree. They were the only ones in the top 10 other than Z&G, who presented their own concept/storyline for their FD rather than interpreting a preexisting story (Hunchback, Carmen, Ghost, Dr. Zhivago, Memoirs of a Geisha, even W&P's "Statue that comes to life" has been done before). I think it helped them stand out a bit.
     
  8. Katarzyna

    Katarzyna Well-Known Member

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    Zemgirl, sorry to point out, but obviously I was not the only one who understood some posts in a way as if e.g. Shelepen will be seen as a 2nd class citizen – actually Kwanfan1818 also asked if she understood you right that Shelepen has no right to represent Israel even as a citizen if not born in the country and not training in Israel from scratch.
    And yes, I would have been very disappointed to learn that, but you cleared it up here and in another thread that this was a misunderstanding, so what’s your point to take it personally? :confused:


    Well, I didn’t want to continue this discussion due to heavy emotions involved, but here I can’t resist: building up a skater in your own country is much more expansive than adopting a foreign skater who has already reached that kind of level, where he might earn a living out of price money. If Shelepen stays healthy and keeps going, she has potential to medal at GP-events & get some price money, though it was Russian Fed which paid for her training to get to that level. So not a bad deal! ;)

    And if Israeli Figure Skating Federation will manage that Shelepen can train at least a couple of weeks per year in Israel, local skaters might for sure benefit from that. :)


    Serov is a pretty bad example – actually he is a bad example for switching countries in general as he did it too late and past his prime (wasn’t he 25 something that time?) He attempted the quad loop for Russia in the old judging system which didn`t penalize URs as harsh as the IJS does. But he competed for Israel under the new judging system – so what would have been the point to continue attempting a quad loop which he hardly ever fully rotated? Just to prove that he isn`t waste of taxes paid by you? :rolleyes:

    Talking about Bychenko – were his attempts on the 3 Axel rotated? If not, then his choice to stop doing it was right. And even if it was not UR – do you know why he stopped doing it? Maybe it had physical reasons? A lot of skaters started practicing harder elements but stopped because their body couldn’t take it. Still Bychenko managed to place 14th at Euros (ahead of the Ukrainian guy) – that’s a decent placement and quite some achievement and I bet most people on this board were proud, if he/she was elected to belong among the best 20 Europeans in his / her profession, no matter if athlete, lawyer, surgeon, florist or plumber. You don’t get to this level with sitting back and letting Israeli tax payers contributing to your lazy, easy life. :p

    You are angry with your fed, with tax wasted in your eyes and maybe rightly so, but then blame Israeli fed / those people in charge for that. Instead you bash your own countries skaters, and not only those who actually produced some results (Bychenko) but even worse also those, who have not yet started to compete for your country (Shelepen) with betting on her declining technically and some posts following this cited one. :duh:
     
  9. Katarzyna

    Katarzyna Well-Known Member

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    Do you think it will be just anyhow possible for you to sit and wait how the girl develops? Maybe she will surprize you and is interested to live in Israel as far as her training regimen will allow that and also willing to learn more about her ancestors culture – at least if not all people in Israel welcome her with that kind of hostility you demonstrate right now. :yikes:

    Personally I’d rather :watch: and judge when facts are on the table.


    “Someone like Shelepen” – again, you don’t yet know how she will perform, how she will integrate as a new citizen, but yet you bash and already wish her bad. Nice! :blah:
     
  10. Katarzyna

    Katarzyna Well-Known Member

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    Macassar88 – thank you for the link. Thanks god no more Carmen. And I really, really liked their warm words about their former coaches. :)
     
  11. Tak

    Tak Well-Known Member

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    :cheer::cheer::cheer:

    Can someone [maybe from the Russian boards] confirm or deny this?

    I just got done watching the ice dancing on J-Sports 4 over the weekend. They included interviews as well as the skating.

    When R/T finished their FD the commentator said that next year they'd go to Sphilband [literally that Sphlband would be their main coach]. And they said in their interview that when they leave here [London] they were going to Detroit to work on their programs for next year [which isnt necessarily the same thing although they only showed clips of the interview, not the whole thing].

    Has anyone else heard anything like this? I havent seen any news about it here, but maybe I missed it.

    Im holding my breath that this is true because Igor is just what they need - he would do wonders with them - they have a lot of potential, but they are going nowhere with Gorshkov. I would love to see them with Igor.
     
  12. TAHbKA

    TAHbKA Well-Known Member

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    Katarzyna, my conversation with you ended 2 pages ago. Go on beating the dead horse knowing as much about israeli figure skating as Bychenko and Shelepen. Enjoy your monologue.
     
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  13. Katarzyna

    Katarzyna Well-Known Member

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    Well, TAHbKA, I swear I had strong wilful intention to stop our conversation as well. But with the ongoing bashing of skaters - as clueless as I am - I simply couldn’t resist to post a reply. :p


    I’d too be interested to have this confirmed. It would be great news. However, I thought Russian Fed wants skaters striving for Sochi to train with Russian coaches located in Russia? So if it’s not only choreographing their programmes with Shpilband, but switching coaches, I wonder how this might work out? :confused:
     
  14. allezfred

    allezfred Prick Admin Staff Member

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    :lol: at the limited number of spots rule being there to help "developing countries". Let me know when that kicks in. ;)

    I've said it before, but like so much else in this sport the 3 spots per country rule actually helps the stronger skating nations because the skaters have to fight so much harder to get one of those spots. And if you did away with the limits, U.S. and Japanese nationals would become irrelevant competitions.

    This year was the first time since 2007 that Ireland wasn't at Euros. :wuzrobbed

    Criteria for membership of the Ice Skating Association of Ireland:

     
  15. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Why? People compete at some Nationals even though they are assured a spot or know that they won't get one by being national champion.

    I don't see how there would be any less incentive to excel if more spots were open. I'd think there would be more incentive to stay (or in the case of pairs or teams) to stay together and bear the expenses of training if they realized they had a chance for a spot.
     
  16. nuge

    nuge Well-Known Member

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    I don't know about this but they are going to have a hard time .With S/Z and S/B if they turn senior on their heels it's going to be tough for that third spot.
     
  17. allezfred

    allezfred Prick Admin Staff Member

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    And sometimes they don't. Besides the fact, I was specifically referring to US and Japanese nationals where the results have a direct bearing on who is selected to represent those countries at the World Championships. Do you think that removing a large part of what is at stake make these events more or less exciting for the TV stations, sponsors and viewers?

    Worlds for everybody then, so the ISU will raise the minimum TES even further and we end up having 5 or 6 dance teams from the US and Russia each, 4 from Canada and then maybe one or two more from the likes of France and Italy. I'm sure you and others would be delighted with that despite the damage it will do to the skating programmes of most of the membership of the ISU as the sport is clearly only here to serve your agenda.
     
  18. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    But the level of skating would be so much higher. For the audience it mean watching higher level of skating. For the skaters it would mean that when you are tenth at worlds, it means that you are really tenth from the whole word. Not that you may be somewhere between 20-25 because there may be some 5 other Japanese, 5 US and 5 Russians who are so much better than you but couldn't compete at worlds because they were number 4-8 in their own country.
     
  19. Eislauffan

    Eislauffan Well-Known Member

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    At Worlds in the flash quote interviews, Ilia Tkachenko said that they are going to Detroit now for a prolonged time. Actually, Alexei Gorshkov has been collaborating with Igor Shpilband already for some time and more so since the start of last season. He spent some months with Riazanova/Tkachenko and I think also with the junior team (Kosygina/Moroshkin) in Detroit with Igor and both Igor and him were coaching Riazonva/Tkachenko at Worlds. So Igor already had some influence on them this season, but it didn't pay off much.
    I really like Riazanova/Tkachenko, but I feel they could be more exciting. Their problem is that they are regarded as "No. 3" Russian team and as others pointed out, they'll have to fight hard even for this spot with the Junior World Champions 2012 and 2013 coming up. Bobrova/Soloviev have made a lot of progress and confirmed their status as Russia's top team this year, while Ilinykh/Katsalapov are struggeling. We'll see what happens with them next season (coaching change?).
     
  20. kirkbiggestfan

    kirkbiggestfan Well-Known Member

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    Shelepen represented Russia in December 2012 at Golden Spin. Could we see here at Euros in 2014? Will Russia release her?
     
  21. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    I don't think that their only problem is that they are Russian number 3 couple. I see their skating as the problem. Last season they seemed to me a bit quicker, sharper... I can't describe it. I am not sure if it is the programs or if they missed training due to something we don't know about (injury or something) but this season their skating looked a bit like a hard job. You expect certain level from Russian ice dancers and this definitely wasn't meeting the expectations. I wouldn't surprised if some other Russian couple caught them up. Besides, you can't even make excuses that they are too young and they will learn. She is 21, he is 26. They are not old, but they are not THAT young. They had plenty of time to develop.
     
  22. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Doesn't she have to sit out the whole season 2013-2014?
     
  23. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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    R/T didn't made that much progress so I don't see how going full with Igor will work ?

    They will face an uphill battle even to make the Olympics Team
    and besides we already know from the certificate recognition reception after worlds
    the one they will support in Ice Dance for next quad is Stepanova/Bukin ( aka Son of Olympic Champion ) so I won't be surprised if S/B will be given a 2014 Olympic spot for Olympics experience for 2018
     
  24. Eislauffan

    Eislauffan Well-Known Member

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    You are right, being No. 3 is not their only problem, but I think it has also a (negative) effect on their skating and their results. I agree that unfortunately they have stagnated this year. Their programs were too similar to previous ones and they had problems to get the appropiate levels. I wish they would come up with something new and fresh and get rid of their problems with levels (this is something you expect Igor Shpilband to fix, but apparently he didn't, at least not yet. OTOH, in the past, Alexei Gorshkov's skaters used to be strong technically, just these past two seasons there seems to be some trouble with levels).
     
  25. Kasey

    Kasey Loving on babies!

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    I thought it was just a year from the date of the last international event; provided that Russia releases her
     
  26. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    I think it may have been changed. But I am not certain about that.
     
  27. nuge

    nuge Well-Known Member

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  28. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    There are other skaters representing other countries training in Russia at present.

    Agafonova/Ucar, 'Azerbeijani' and the Latvian team train with Zhulin. There's that Kazakh girl as well. And probably many more.

    We don't know that. But given Chait works with pretty much all Israeli skaters, my guess is, Papa Boria is footing that bill. :p

    They have already been working with Shpilband this season. It's nothing new. He's their secondary coach and they spend part of the year in Novi. Gorshkov and Shpilband have been collaborating since Zueva has ousted him (Fusar-Poli has also been working with Shpilband part of the year).

    They definitely need better programs, they seemed stuck in a rut this season. No noticeable improvement and dull boring routines.
     
  29. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Mar 25, 2013
  30. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    It's certainly important to the TV networks in the US, even for the limited, crap coverage they show, mostly in Olympic years. I don't know the drivers for Japanese TV: did viewership go down the year there was a formula that took other events into consideration for the Olympics? (This is technically is true for every US Nationals, although practically the rule might as well not exist.)

    A skater will skip Nationals only if s/he can and still make the World/Olympic team. Spots are assigned by country, not to specific skaters. Just because Japan might earn five or six spots for Men doesn't mean that Machida, for example, can wake up one morning and say, "I think I'll skip Nationals" unless the Japanese Fed lets him. I just don't see Takahashi slacking at Japanese Nationals because he knows he's top five and why bother.

    Yeah, Canada is so deep in Men or Ladies that there would be 4 skaters.

    It isn't clear at all that many nations' programs would shrivel and die if Europeans and 4C's were the last championships in which most of their skaters could compete, especially in Europe, where senior internationals are thriving, and most of those skaters don't have an icycle's chance in hell to make Euros, let alone Worlds.

    The ISU's implementation is not the only way to limit skaters: they could have qualified Worlds spots the same way they select Olympics spots: a fixed number at Worlds and a qualifier like Nebelhorn, even one later in the season and with more open spots, since there were more in singles than 30. They don't have to make it a "Let everyone in": they can create a formula to allow more than three from one country, and it can take into consideration other stats, like the number of skaters in the Top X SB and/or the number of skaters who make GPF. They could have a warmup group consisting of wild card spots and use a Senior B as a skate-off to earn extra spots at Worlds, and they could even make this group skate first.

    My only agenda is to see Kozuka skate. Canada could have seven spots in Ice Dance, and they'd still figure out a way to drop Paul/Islam.

    However, other people who support breaking the limit want to see the best skaters at any given time without national limits. The Federations would never allow a tennis-like model, because that makes their influence moot, but that's another story.

    Since this is the Russia thread, yes, I would like to see more Russian Ladies, Dance, and Pairs compete than the current limit.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2013
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