From Russia With Love - Spring into Summer 2013

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Mar 17, 2013.

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  1. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Leaving aside the Duschenays, I don't see how either Kavaguti or Volosozhar are comparable to Shelepen or Bychenko. Both Kavaguti and Volosozhar relocated to Russia to pair up with Russian partners who were the best option for them. Both speak Russian. Kavaguti gave up her Japanese citizenship! They are actually more comparable to Allison Reed, who is now skating with Vasili Rogov, or the girl who is now skating with Krasnaploski - Davidovich, I think? If an Israeli skater needs to look abroad to find the right partner, I have no issue with that, though I would expect the partner to make a minimal effort to try and relate to the country and maybe learn a bit of the language. Isabella Tobias had to take a test in Lithuanian and still hasn't had her citizenship approved, I don't think it's too much to ask for skaters to at least be able to figure out what "the warmup is over" means when it is said in Hebrew.

    The IISF itself is sending the message loud and clear that it finds the local kids lacking in ability and unable to compete - look at which skaters they choose to support and under what conditions, and that will tell you all you need to know.

    I don't know how you came up with this strange theory about TAHbKA and I trying to "subvert the achievements Israeli skaters have made". We have done nothing of the kind, but have been quite consistent in our posts and in pointing out that the development of skating in Israel is harmed by the focus on bringing in skaters from abroad rather than developing it locally. The point is not what foreign fans think; the point is what Israelis think, and whether a local kid will be inspired to take up the sport based on what is currently happening. The goal of the IISF should be to make Israeli figure skating successful, and I don't feel their current approach is or will be effective in promoting that goal.

    Since you are not Israeli, I find your attempts to tell us what Israelis think and should think presumptuous and unfortunate.
     
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  2. TAHbKA

    TAHbKA Well-Known Member

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    I don't assume anything. I also don't have to like it, do I? I also dont want my tax money to be wasted on that circus.

    Remind me, in which country do Kawaguti and Volosozhar live now? Where do they train? Which language do they speak? Which citizenship do they hold (am not sure whether Volosozhar had to give up the Ukranian citizenship, but we all know Kawaguti's story and how much she had to sacrify to represent Russia).
    None of the imported israeli skaters had to give up the previous citizenships, none live in Israel, none even come to Israel if they don't absolutely have to. You know when the last nationals took place? No? Me neither. Now that should really give the local kids a reason to go to the ice rink, right?

    Who are the last decade skates you are talking about? Chait/Sakhnovski? Chait was born in Israel, just like Schreiber. I don't recall calling either of them imported. Zaretskis? Krasnapolski? Katz? Please please, pretty please show me where did I call any of those skaters imported. I would love to see that.

    As for the skaters of the last 2-3 years (again, Krasnopolski, Zilberberg and Rogov aside) - I don't care much what the international figure skating fans think about the Israeli figure skating. However, in the local papers the only times the figure skating is mentioned is in the articles about money laundering etc. It is called the wandering circus. And you know what? They are right.


    And yes, I do want the FSUers to know those skaters are imported and have done nothing to promote figure skating in Israel, among the local skaters or the local fans.

    On that positive note am done arguing with you. You seem to know as much about the Israeli skating as Shelepen.
     
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  3. TAHbKA

    TAHbKA Well-Known Member

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    Rofl, Zemgirl, we should stop that telepathy, it becomes scary:)
     
  4. ioana

    ioana Well-Known Member

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    I didn't read TAHbKA's post as a dig at past achievements. Instead, it seemed to focus on future results and the overall fairness of the selection process. Or rather, lack thereof. I don't think there's anything wrong with pointing that out. My home country has been sending a marginally better import skater to Euros instead of the local girl for about 3 years now. I don't think sending a 60-scoring skater over a 55-scoring local skater sends the right message, but in their infinite wisdom the National Federation seems to believe that's the right call. This doesn't mean import skaters are to blame -far from it, actually. However, it is frustrating when you think how much these decisions could hurt skating's long-term development in countries that do this.
     
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  5. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    :)

    I prefer to think of it as setting a good example... :D and the posts kind of complement each other, don't you think?
     
  6. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Speaking as the spectator and not the skater who swaps the countries, I would rather watch decent skaters even though they skate for a different country than the country they were born it, than watching low standard skaters who are raised in certain country. So I would rather watch at Europeans 15 Russian girls (skating for all different ex-Soviet countries) who can do triple-triple and have high level of skills and talent, than someone who is 'really' born in those ex-Soviet countries but struggles with doing any triple. For me it is about watching skills/sport/art/achievement, not about caring where someone was or wasn't born.
     
  7. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    I would blame the country's skating federation for accepting 'the rubbish skaters' to skate for them. If country doesn't have their own skaters and want someone to represent them, they should be more picky. But to be fair, your skating federation could do much worse than having Shelepen. If we forgive her the last year because she did have a long-standing injury, the year before she was pretty solid in both JGP events and got second in JGPF. After the Olympics, when the strongest skaters retire, if her injury is healed, she has a chance to be somewhere around 5th at Europeans and around 10th at Worlds. So in fact she wouldn't be 'stealing' somebody's spot because she has the potential to earn another one for someone else.
     
  8. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Oh, come on, Tanka, this is figure skating. Even if the imported skaters have the opportunity to suddenly attend all the major international competitions, I don't think it is fair to claim that they have an easy life. They had to sacrifice a lot to be where they are, same as any top skater, so having easy life is a bit exaggeration. They still have to meet the TES to qualify at the event, and they still have to work hard day after day.


    This! ^^

    Saying that skater has to work harder to be send to Europeans/worlds is ridiculous. There is no fair way to decide who is going to Euroepans/Worlds. There will always be someone who felt that he/she should have gone instead of someone else. For example, would you send to Europeans someone who was delivering the whole season and then messed up nationals, or someone who was messing up the whole season and then had the skate of their lifetime at the nationals? Whoever from this two you choose, the other will feel that he/she should have been chosen.


    But this is sport and you admitted yourself that the imported skater is better...
     
  9. Katarzyna

    Katarzyna Well-Known Member

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    I didn’t say you are trying, i.e. stating you have intention to do so. I just pointed out possible effects of some statements made here, in particular in view of the language used, e.g. "rubbish skaters". :rolleyes:

    Well, you posted at great skate debate and this is an open forum. It’s ok if you don’t care what skating fans outside of Israel think, but I’m still entitled to state my opinion. And as I mentioned and though you don't care - I see your concerns, the way they are presented is something else and really bothers me.

    BTW, this is a thread about Russian skating and it’s not only people from Russia are posting here what they think about Russian Skaters and Russian Fed. Maybe they didn’t get the new rules! :p

    I’m not debating with you that you for sure have much bigger knowledge on Israeli figure skating, but I take up the positive note from your side to stop arguing on this issue – because that was my point: the way these issues are discussed may come across unfortunate. Period. :)
     
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  10. TAHbKA

    TAHbKA Well-Known Member

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    Me too. As far as I'm concerned lets have X skaters from any country and not maximum 3 and have a higher TES. I would love to watch Korobeinikova instead of Simanchikova. But that's not how the current system works.
    Taking how the current system works I'd rather not see anyone representing my country at all, than have Shelepen and some such. I think in that respect the Irish federation is doing a fine job. There is a local skater. Clara Peters. Whatever she can do - she does. If she can't make the minimum there will be no American skater who will skate in her place.

    I think they shouldn't have someone representing them at all if that's the case. I realize how badly PapaChait wants to go to the Olympics (not only him, but the whole NOC as well) and they need someone to take them there. I'd rather not have any representitives of the Israeli NOC at the Olympics than have Bychenko or someone of the kind going there.


    To be fair, my skating federation could admit failing raising a single skater in the last 5 years and just quite and shut itself down, rather than going on spending the taxpayer's money on the foreign skaters.

    I think my slippers just choked on a laughter. Any skater who becomes israeli automatically goes 5-10 spots lower than they deserve or would be had they represented any other country. Partly because with the lack of competition they have no reason to work hard. Bychenko was attempting 3A before he became an Israeli, now he doesn't need to, Serov was attempting 4loop while he was a Russian, I have no idea what will become of Shelepen and I wish her a fast recovery, but I can bet some money on her never landing another 3/3.
     
  11. kosjenka

    kosjenka Well-Known Member

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    Four words.

    Amy Ireland representing Croatia.

    I rest my case.
     
  12. TAHbKA

    TAHbKA Well-Known Member

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    Awwww, the awesome Amy Ireland.... !
     
  13. kosjenka

    kosjenka Well-Known Member

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    After Amy representing Croatia I have little patience reading about bitching regarding Tobias and her Lithuanian citizenship pursuit.
    This American "Barbie" put in time to learn the language, Amy hardly knew she was in Europe competing at Euros 2008. Not that her "croatian" partner was much better.
     
  14. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    This is a public forum, everyone is welcome to share their opinions. I am suggesting, however, that you should not presume to tell me (or TAHbKA) what our opinions regarding the skaters who represent us should be, and that you don't get to define who we, or any other Israelis, should consider Israeli. Not to mention all the stuff about how disappointed you are in us, how we're trying to make people into second class citizens, etc. etc.

    My point about non-Israeli fans was not that they don't matter but that they are not important for the development of figure skating in Israel; for that purpose, it is important what Israelis think. While watching Shelepen might be fun for you, her representing Israel is unlikely to have any effect on the popularity of figure skating in Israel - and making the sport successful in Israel is a more important goal than ensuring that foreign fans enjoy our skaters or that Boris Chait will get to go to the Olympics.

    I very much agree with TAHbKA that what Ireland is doing is the right way to go. This is the same situation Spain was in five years back, and look where their skaters are now. That's the kind of model I want to see here. Israel will never be another Russia in skating, but there are countries that provide an example of how to do things right on a smaller scale.

    And with that, I believe I will follow TAHbKA's lead.
     
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  15. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Oh, Tanka, please don't choke! I am happy to bet with you that she will be doing triple-triple at international competitions even when competing for Israel. What are you willing to bet? :)

    The thing is, Shelepen doesn't have much else. She has great jumping ability but she will not be getting very high PCS. So if she wants to win, she will have to be jumping. And I think she has the drive to win (see her success as junior) so she will be jumping.

    I wonder if they let her train at the same rink where she is now, if she doesn't represent Russia? I thought that Russian coaches were not 'allowed' to coach international skaters in Russia now?
     
  16. bek

    bek Guest

    Who can forget Israel not letting their singles skater go to the Olympics in Vancover... (So sad) It makes sense why Israelis would want someone actually from Israel skating for Israel. One looks at Yu-na Kim. One of the best things about her for Korea is that she's homegrown. However, maybe Polina won't take Israeli tax payer money? And maybe she will give back to Israeli skating, we don't know that for sure... I think that she could do very well, she's at the very least not a skater who can't win a local competition. She has won some junior internationals. Is she the best I've ever seen no, but I think she's pretty good.

    Polina is not those people. Its possible she won't improve and won't try. But its possible she will want to do well and will keep her 3/3s in if she can... I think she at the very least in that area deserves to be judged by her own actions and not based on what others in the past have done. Some skaters may say oh I have an automatic shot no need to push myself. But others want to do well internationally. Look at Yu-na, she could have easily rested on her laurels and never bothered learning a 3/3 etc. But she wanted to do better than win Korean Nationals.

    Polina may or may not decided to "skate" through the rest of her career... But I say in that area see what she does.

    I do see why you guys want skaters who will build Israeli skating.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 24, 2013
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  17. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    We had some american girl representing the UK at last year JGP. Also not very good. But then if there is no one better here...
     
  18. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    Last time Russia had a bunch of talented ladies, the fed managed to keep their talents around longer I thought. It's not until Timoshenko and Soldatova that there was country switching among their top talent. (I could be mistaken though). Now these girls had one bad season and they switched.

    On another note, I appreciate all the Russian talents, but I can't help but feel they are facing too much too soon
     
  19. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    And this sums it up. Spain is an example to follow and it's something that Chait should be doing but isn't.
     
  20. TAHbKA

    TAHbKA Well-Known Member

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    I wasn't, my slippers were :lol:
    I think she will give up fast after a competition or two realizing except for skating she needs a federation that supports her behind her. It's not Israeli federation most of the time.
    I think it doesn't apply to all the coaches (Morozov is training foreign skaters. Am not sure whether Sokolovskaya is considered a top coach to be forbidden coaching the foreigners)
     
  21. Domshabfan

    Domshabfan Searching for Cizeron's Instagram

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    Shelepen move could be done with the blessing of RSF, so they may let Sokolovskaya coach Shelepen after all, or Shelepen could move to US as she already has Shpilband has Choreographer ( i think he is secondary coach for her)
     
  22. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    I thought that Morozov was an exception. The Russian skating Federation needed him and therefore they had to accept that he will be having some international skaters. At the time when the unwritten 'rule' came out that they are not 'allowed' to coach international students, Morozov had a very successful season, Ando was world champion, someone else (maybe Takahashi? Or Voronov?) have done pretty well, so I think the Russian Federation wanted him to take on Leonova and they were not in position to mess up relationship with him. They needed him.
     
  23. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    I have to give the federation credit on that count: not sending Katz to the Olympics was not their decision and IIRC they argued for sending her. It was the NOC that insisted on a pretty strict criterion, and unfortunately she couldn't meet it. I thought it was an unfortunate and short-sighted decision, how can you develop local talent if you don't give skaters opportunities and incentive and don't give younger competitors examples to look up to?
     
  24. ioana

    ioana Well-Known Member

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    I think 'no one better' is debatable. If you're talking about someone who has the potential to score 40+ points better than a local skater, I could see why a federation would be tempted. Still don't think caving in to that temptation is the right move in the long run, but I can at least understand where the decision came from. Sending a skater who can score 10 points more, and sometimes not even that, is a slap in the face to developing local skaters. At least when it comes to JGP's you have the option of sending local skaters to other events. When we're talking about Europeans where most countries can only field one entry and it repeatedly goes to an import skater, then it becomes an issue. YMMV since I guess seeing a skater with 2 triple attempts might be more interesting, but I'd rather see the local kid with only a 2axel get her chance.
     
  25. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Well, I don't. I can see kids with double axel every day at my rink. If I go to watch senior ISU championships, I would hope that in men category it will be triple axel and not just double. No matter if the skater comes from my country or from any other. In ladies, of course I don't expect triple axels. Not everyone can be Mao Asada.
     
  26. TAHbKA

    TAHbKA Well-Known Member

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    I really don't know. I.e. Zhulin is coaching the newly Azerbajanized pair as well, so go figure what's going on there, what is the rule and who does it apply to....
     
  27. ioana

    ioana Well-Known Member

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    When it comes to Morozov, any rule is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules...Yar, pirates & Leonova's LP music choice :p.
     
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  28. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    Surely you don't expect a new rink to be able to train and develop a skater who can meet JWC, GP, or senior championship minimums immediately to represent Israel?

    Are these "american/russian rubbish skaters" Israeli citizens? Did they become Israeli citizens the same way I could become an Israeli citizen tomorrow, through the standard citizenship route? I haven't read here about any skaters representing Israel who don't have citizenship claims or who were granted citiizenship on exceptional/extraordinary grounds because they were skaters.

    Not even close: Amy Ireland wasn't a citizen of Croatia. I'm not sure if her husband was, as different European countries have extended citizenship to people by ancestry, especially those with large expat communities who fled during WWII or Soviet rule. The articles say that Shelepen is entitled to Israeli citizenship through her ancestry.

    Am I understanding you properly, that Shelepen has no right to represent Israel, even if she is a citizen because she wasn't a natural-born, trained from scratch in Israel citizen?

    I know a number of people who now hold Irish passports because of ancestry. One applied and got his Irish passport in the mail a year later. Have any Americans/Canadians/[Anywhere else in the world] obtained Irish citizenship to skate for Ireland? If so, have they been refused by the Irish federation, because they weren't natural-born Irish citizens who were trained in Ireland?

    Same question about Ireland: were there skaters who got Spanish citizenship through ancestry and tried to represent Spain, but were rejected by the Spanish federation?

    She was Israeli, but spent some time in the US because her parents were working in the US.

    She was not allowed to go to the Olympics, because she didn't meet the criteria set by the Israeli Olympic committee. If Shelepen or any other skater qualifies for the Olympics and meets those criteria, they will be sent, not because they are natural-born Israelis or were trained in Israel, but because they have met all of the criteria, including citizenship.
     
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  29. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    No, you did not understand me properly. Shelepen has every right to represent Israel. But I doubt a skater with so little connection to Israel will inspire much interest in skating here, and I would rather see our federation use its limited resources to develop skating in Israel rather than import skaters from elsewhere. I am on record as supporting a number of athletes in general and skaters in particular who are not Israeli born (e.g. the Zaretskis in the past, Rogov and Krasnapolski and whoever they skate with in the present).

    BTW, the rink in Holon is new, but there are other rinks in Israel. The Zaretskis and Krasnapolski spent their early career in Metulla and there are still lower-level skaters training there today. So while it is hard to develop local talent, it is not as though there was nothing in place before Ice Peaks opened, and it would have been nice to see some of these skaters at Nationals. Even Mouallem.
     
  30. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    Are you saying that the Israeli Federation actively recruited Shelepen? Are they planning to subsidize her so that she'll have the level of training and services/subsidies she had in Russia? (That will take a lot of shekels.)

    I have little idea how the Israeli Federation works or of the oversights, since it receives tax money, unlike in the US, apart from the subsidy aspect tax-deductible donations to skaters through specific charitable organizations, although I suspect if Boris Chait is in charge, it's whatever he wants.
     
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