From Russia With Love - Spring into Summer 2013

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Mar 17, 2013.

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  1. Jeschke

    Jeschke Well-Known Member

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    lubov wasn't that consistent in her final years with maisuradze either. i cannot seen her with whomever being a big threat to any of the top 4,5 russian pairs.
    so where's the danger for the fed?
     
  2. Domshabfan

    Domshabfan Searching for Cizeron's Instagram

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    Lubov has won GP event with Maisuradze and finished 4th at the GPFs in 2010-2011. They also looked at that year to challenge B/L for the third russian spot until she blew it at the Russia nationals... Potential at this point she has is way stronger than others .
     
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  3. kirkbiggestfan

    kirkbiggestfan Well-Known Member

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    Shelepen is an amazing talent and you can argue that she had accomplishments just as great as Lubov. She might have dealt with injuries recently like most Russian teenagers, but she has the potential to medal at Euros for example.
    At this point, Russia would release talents to Italy, AZE or Israel, but not to France, the US or Canada. It is all strategic and political. The skaters are the victim of the system that encourages secret deals. The ISU should have a 1 or 2 year wait period for skaters wishing to switch countries and that is it. I don't believe for one second that Russia would have released Shelepen had she asked to skate for France or the US.
     
  4. quiqie

    quiqie Well-Known Member

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    Russian team oficially announced: http://fsrussia.ru/upl/ckeditor/1135439.pdf

    Radionova is in the main team, Martyusheva/Rogonov in reserve.

    Main team:
    Pairs: Julia Antipova / Nodari Maisuradze, Vera Bazarova / Yuri Larionov, Tatiana Volosozhar /Maxim Trankov, Yuko Kavaguti / Alexander Smirnov, Ksenia Stolbova / Fedor Klimov, Evgenia Tarasova / Vladimir Morozov;

    Singles: Sergei Voronov, Artur Gachinski, Maxim Kovtun, Konstantin Menshov, Evgeni Plushenko;

    Nikol Gosviyani, Alena Leonova, Julia Lipnitskaya, Elena Radionova, Adelina Sotnikova, Elizaveta Tuktamysheva;

    Ice Dancing: Ekaterina Bobrova / Dmitri Soloviev , Elena Ilinykh / Nikita Katsalapov, Ksenia Monko / Kirill Khalyavin, Ekaterina Ryazanova / Ilia Tkachenko, Victoria Sinitsina / Ruslan Zhiganshin, Alexandra Stepanova / Ivan Bukin.

    Junior team:

    Pairs: Vygalova / Zakroev, Gainetdinova / Bich, Grechukhina / Filonov, Gubanova / Sintsov, Fedorova / Miroshkin, Chernyavskaya / Souza-Cordeiro;

    Singles: Genya, Kolyada, Kurbanov, Lezheev, Petrov, Pitkeev, Samarin, Tarasenko;

    Evgenia Gerasimova, Evgenia Medvedeva, Pogorilaya, Sakhanovitch, Sotskova, Stavitskaya, Titushkina;

    Ice Dancing: Baklanova / Bagin, Evdokimova / Bazin, Kosygina / Moroshkin, Morozova / Zhirnov, Popova / Vlasenko, Yanovskaya / Mozgov.


    Skaters born in 1993-2002:

    Pais: Nagalatiy / Bobrov, Poluyanova / Korotkov, Chuzhanova / Mintsev;

    Singles:Andruner, Bernadiner, Zuber, Kvitelahvili, Krasnozhon, Lazukin, Mikhailov, Savosin;

    Kolomiets, Yulia Li, Ogoreltseva, Pervushkina, Proklova, Tursynbaeva;

    Ice Dancing: Khachaturian / Eremenko, Shpilevaya / Smirnov.

    Reserve:

    Pairs: Astakhova / Kurdyukov, Gerboldt / Enbert, Davankova / Deputat, Martyusheva / Rogonov, Mitina / Shevchuk;

    Singles: Vladislav Sezganov;

    Polina Agafonova, Polina Korobeynikova, Ksenia Makarova, Anna Shershak;

    Ice Dancing: Zenkova / Sinitsin, Loseva / Lunin, Pushkash / Guereiro.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2013
  5. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    It does have a pne- or two-year wait period, and a provision that the ISU Council can approve a change of federations if the skater's original federation does not do so on its own. What the ISU cannot do anything about, however, is the IOC's rule that an athlete must sit out three years before competing in the Olympics if the original federation does not grant a release.

    Now, if you want to rant against the IOC, please go right ahead.
     
  6. Domshabfan

    Domshabfan Searching for Cizeron's Instagram

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    May be, Russia has invested heavily in these athletes and federation pays for these athletes training. Didn't Us block the release of several athletes since federation had payed for training (or travel grant etc), and unless they payed back for the money received. I absolutely don't believe shelpen is as talented as Lubov...
     
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  7. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    Same here. I have lowered my expectations of them at this point, no matter how lovely they are.
     
  8. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

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    Martiusheva/Rogonov are listed in the Reserve Team and are #18 on the ISU Season Best scores list, so they should or could get an invite from another GP federation, if not a host pick.
     
  9. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    At some stage Lubov was pretty succesful with Maisuradze. It was only the last year (or two?) when the problems started, so we can't really judge what was the reason behind the deteriorating results. It could have been that she felt so bad about her conditions where she skated and about her coach and about her partner, that she was constantly stressed as a result and that could possibly account for having trouble with her jumps...we don't know.
     
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  10. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Good news. Radionova made it! There were not all names in the article. See this link:

    http://www.fskate.ru/teams/russia/2013/

    (translated with google, so the names are sometimes not translated properly).

    I wonder why Davankova-Deputat are neither in senior nor in junior team. They are only in reserve. I thought that the skaters in reserve team were those who did not perform and therefore could not make neither junior nor senior team?



    ETA: Ops, sorry, I did not notice that quiqie has already posted the names.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2013
  11. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Well, Shelepen can do two different triple-triple in her program, which Lubov can't...but Lubov is definitely more expressive on the ice. So it depends how you measure the talent.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2013
  12. kirkbiggestfan

    kirkbiggestfan Well-Known Member

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    The US is just as bad as Russia in this "releasing skaters game". The rules are just very cruel to the skaters involved. I feel just as bad for Morgan Matthews for example. Shelepen won 4 Junior Grand Prix, won silver at the JGPF, has all the triples, different 3-3s, terrific spins and flexibility. Russia almost sent her to Senior Worlds in Nice last year. It is almost impossible to compare her to a pair skater who has trouble rotating a 3T.
     
  13. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    Pairs and dance teams have a one-year waiting period, but it is rare that a one-year period applies to singles in practice. According to Rule 109/2/b/ii, a single can't participate in an international for Country 2 if s/he's competed for Country 1 within 12 months of 1 July of the season. This means someone who participated for Country 1 at Nebelhorn 2012 (2012-13 season) can't compete at Gardenia 2014 (2013-14), because s/he's competed for Country 1 within 12 months of 1 July 2013, the beginning of the season. The first international that skater can participate in is after 1 July 2014, a minimum of 23 months, if she competes in the earliest 2014-15 international. (September 2012-August 2014). The minimum wait would be about 16 months, April 2012 (the last international of the 2011-12 season)-August 2013 (the first international of the 2013-14 season).

    According to Rule 109/2/b/iii, a skater who's participated at 2012 Euros for Country 1 can't participate at Euros for Country 2 until 2015 Euros, because for the 2013-14 season (2014 Euros), s/he would have participated for Country 1 at an ISU championship within 18 months of 1 July 2013.

    This is also shown in Communication 1420, the communication referenced in Rule 109/7 (language added in the 2012 Constitution and Regs document):

    In this case, the first Euros after July 1, 2008 would be in January 2009, or three years after the last time competing (Feb 2006).

    The IOC's rules are finite and apply automatically. They don't require one Federation to make a request for an exception if a Federation refuses to grant a release. The 18-month ISU championship rule coupled with 1 July deadline means three years for ISU championships as well for singles skaters.

    Exceptions seem to be required to be requested by Members, in this case the new Federation, not the skaters, but this isn't completely clear. If true, it would mean that Federations would have to open a can of worms and get into an official ISU fight over skaters. However, 1420 clarifies:

    The Council does not specific the number of years not representing a Member that would cause them to deem the non-release as "unjustified." I've never read of any case for which an exception was applied, even when USFS had formal policy under which they would refuse release for up to four years, which they applied to Morgan Matthews (to skate for Canada), but not her partner, Maxim Zavozin (to skate for Hungary). I would think the ISU would have published a communication to address exception decisions, had there been any, since they do for other Council decisions on individual skaters, like Plushenko's re-instatement and various drug-related issues.

    What is interesting about 1420, is that it specifies certain situations where a skater does not need Federation release, but can make a declaration to the ISU, while at the same time recommending that skaters ask for release just in case, which may be why Bariev and Shelepen asked for release, even though it appears they could have made a declaration instead. Also, the document, as usual, doesn't have all of the info in the same place, and relying on one section would mean missing a key requirement in the other.

    For example:

    This would suggest that any skater with multiple citizenships who has represented one country must have clearance from that Federation before competing for another country in which s/he holds citizenship.

    But, as usual, not so fast:

    I'm guessing the never having competing in national competition for the new country is there for kids who were born in one country and lived there as small children, but never competed there.

    and

    C 3) Evidence proving the Permit by the Original Member:
    b) The permit is not required in case:
    (i) the skater has resided in the country of the new Member for more than a year and has applied for the citizenship of that country.


    This suggests that applying for citizenship is not enough to get an exception: there's a one-year residency requirement as well, but if citizenship is granted without residing in the new country, then residency isn't an issue. Had Shelepen only applied for Israeli citizenship, she wouldn't have met the residency requirement, and would have needed a release from the Russian Fed, but with citizenship, it appears she didn't actually need it. (And, it cost them nothing, since they had nothing to which to hold.)

    Neither Shelepen nor Bariev qualify under the rule that is underlined, because Rule 109/2/b, they would have needed to have lived in Israel/Italy for a year. From all accounts, the residency requirement was waived for Shelepen and was unnecessary for Bariev, since he got Italian citizenship through a birth parent. However, both should have qualified under the bolded statement dual citizens: Shelepen/Bariev never participated in the Israeli/Italian national competitions, and, AFAIK, neither Shelepen nor Bariev lived in Israel/Italy.

    There is then incentive for a skater to try to get citizenship where he or she never lived, like Shelepen, because then s/he doesn't need a Federation release, but that generally doesn't happen when the dual-citizenship is in two powerful Federations, like France and Russia and the US and Canada which have refused to release skaters to each other, since the residency requirements are rarely waived and being eligible to apply for citizenship usually depends on substantial residency and language requirements. I'm guessing this was the biggest barrier for Iliushechkina (and probably Petukhov): by the time she would be eligible to apply for citizenship, it would be like waiting for a release from the Russian Federation.

    Another interesting point in 1420: the July 1 rule (singles only) can be waived if citizenship is granted or the one-year residency period occurs after July 1 and the new Federation enters the skater 30 or more days before the start of the event.

    Since we've had many discussions about who does and doesn't need a release (permit, in ISU language):

    Needs a permit:
    • Any pairs or dance skater who has competed for one Member and wants to compete for another (ex: Ilishechkina)
    • Any singles skater who wants to compete for a Member where s/he's not a citizen of that country
    • Any singles skater who's competed for one Member and wants to compete for another (ex: Shelepen, Bariev)


    Unless/until
    • The singles skater has applied for citizenship (and may also have to meet the residency requirement) in the new country
    • The singles skater been granted or inherited citizenship in the new country without every having lived there or competed in that country's national competitions

    At least until 1420 is superseded by another communication.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2013
  14. Eislauffan

    Eislauffan Well-Known Member

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    I saw Elena Radionova and her coach today and Elena hopes to get senior GP assignments. She really would love to compete on the senior GP.
     
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  15. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    She's #11 on the SB list and is guaranteed one, if the Russian Fed submits her for senior GP. The Russian Fed can keep a TBA for her if two other Feds don't pick her, or they want her locally.
     
  16. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    The Russian fed has to make sure sotnikova and tuktamsheva have a great chance to make the gpf or be an alternate and they shouldn't put radionova up for a gp. In fact a host pick for cor Should be makarova.
     
  17. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    They can only do that by sunbitting Radionova to JGP and leaving her off the list or strongarming the other Feds into not picking her for a second in initial selection or as an alternate. That won't guarantee the others sports at GPF, but it will keep her from making it, like Asada in 2005.
     
  18. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    With all due respect to Lubov, the only reason they won Skate Canada was because the top teams who were assigned weren't there. The only reason they beat MT/M was because MT/M did bad in the short (5th place) and I/M only won by 0.48. Missing top teams were the reason they also got to go to the GPF as well. It was one of the weakest pairs GPF ever.

    They did good in juniors but in seniors they were very average at best. She should have stayed in Russia to find another partner and new coach. No country would have a better selection.
     
  19. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    They should keep it simple and have her be jgp.
     
  20. Stephanie

    Stephanie Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. Radionova dominated the JGP last season and has nothing to gain by going back. The Russian Fed has to think about Radionova's development also, not just giving Sotnikova/Tuktamysheva/Lipnitskaia a better chance at making the final.

    On another note, I really hope Gosviani gets COR since that's probably her only chance of getting on the GP.
     
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  21. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Why should they do that? Sotnikova and Tuktamysheva are good themselves and there is no point in shielding them from competition. That wouldn't help them long term.

    And put Makarova for their host pick? I don't think she deserves it after having seriously bad results for two consecutive seasons. What would that achieve? That's like USA giving this year's host pick to Rachel Flat. It won't happen. My guess would be that Gosviani gets the host pick. She won't be threat to either of the Russian ladies who will be competing at that GP event, but still will produce decent result.
     
  22. quiqie

    quiqie Well-Known Member

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    More like to Alissa Czisny :shuffle:
     
  23. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    To be fair to Alissa, she had a very strong season 2010-11, winning 1st and 3rd at GP, winning GPF, 5th at worlds. Her season 2011-12 wasn't so good, but she still got to the GPF so even that still could be considered pretty decent. It was only the last few competitions of that seasons she started struggling (e.g. the worlds) and then she was the whole season 2012-13 off because of injury. In comparison, Makarova had last two seasons pretty bad. So one can argue that Czisny would actually deserve the host pick more than Makarova (if they were from the same country and someone was deciding to who to give it to).
     
  24. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    I actually think Makarova has had steady results. She hasn't been great but she rarely melted down. Plus she got top ten every time she went to worlds or Olympics.
     
  25. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    As long as being seeded once qualifies a skater for "Comeback" status regardless of subsequent results at Worlds, Czisny will get at least one without Skate America. (Her old PB will place her top 24 SB.)
     
  26. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Steady results? Did you watch her last two seasons at all? Consistently bad results, more likely.
    Season 2011-2012 5th and 7th at GP, 6th at Europeans and 9th at worlds. (it wasn't thanks to her that Russia kept three spots that year!)
    Season 2012-2013 6th and 7th at GP. 8th at Russian nationals. Not sent to Europeans and Worlds.

    How you put it, top 10 at Worlds sounds great, but if you needed to earn or keep 3 spots, it would make it very difficult for the other skater to have the total placement together 13 or less.
     
  27. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    I didn't say Makarova has had great results, but if the issue was comparing Makarova vs. Czisny... Makarova has had steadier results IMHO. She may not be medalling in Euro or gp, but she hasn't had a meltdown at the biggest competitions. I consider top ten every worlds or Olympics steady results, and she did help earn 3 spots in 2011 and 2012, and in 2012 did way better than the promising upcomer Polina K at worlds. Her 8th at 2010 worlds was the higher finish of the two Russian ladies. It's Czisny who has more ups and downs.
     
  28. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    Makarova's placements at Euros and Czisny's at 4C's are almost identical. At Worlds, Czisny had one placement higher than Makarova's -- 5th to Makarova's 7th -- but also three results out of the Top 10 in which she was the second-ranked US skater and did not help gain/retain three spots. Of Makarova's three finishes, all in the Top 10, in her first, she was the highest-placing Russian lady, and in the other two, her placement with Leonova's gained and retained three spots for Russian ladies, which the highly-touted and talented Sotnikova and Tuktamysheva did not last season.

    Makarova's ninth at 2012 Worlds did help retain three spots for Russia at 2013 Worlds: Russia #3, Korobeynikova placed 19th.
     
  29. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    The final isn't just about the final it's about maintaining image and presence! Who would Russia want more in the final sotnikova or radionova? Maybe they will put radionova as a way to block non Russians as well even if she would wind up blocking an eligible Russian skater she might block and eligible American or Japanese skater. Radionova would get senior experience and block someone from being in "the final" against Kim Yuna and Mao asada and kostner!

    I don't believe in shielding the eligible Russians from competition just competition from ineligible Russians in the Olympic season. But may e radionova could be useful if she made the gpf or just by participating took away points from Americans or Japanese skaters because it looks like radionova would be really good like when. Tuktamisheva and lipnitskaia debuted.

    I agree gosviani could accomplish the same thing as makarova but be a little better and reward someone who had a good skate at 2013 Russian nationals.
     
  30. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    Were Radionova to knock one of the other Russian ladies out of GPF, the Russian Fed would know behind which skater to put its politik in Sochi.
     
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