From Russia With Love - Spring into Summer 2013

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Mar 17, 2013.

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  1. IceIceBaby

    IceIceBaby New Member

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    I doubt that all of the skaters think about competitions all the time. They might have set a certain goal, to nail a quad lutz once for example, and after they have achieved it, they must be very happy and proud. And later on they can watch these videos and think "I did it".
     
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  2. Katarzyna

    Katarzyna Well-Known Member

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    It’s not like only the Russians who are doing it! Remember Gracie Gold’s videos of 3-3 and even 3-3-3 that were published in the net last season? But I agree – landing jumps in practice doesn`t get you medals and is not worth much for the skaters. However, when such clips are published, I think they give you a good hint what elements skaters might aim to add to their programmes. Cause it`s not like Gracie Gold landed 3-3 only on the practice ice and never in competition. :D

    Regarding estimations how long it takes the skater to try until one video is good enough to be published mentioned earlier on – I assume when skaters do such attempts in front of the camera, they already have certain consistency on them in practice, maybe quite far away from a consistency required to include those elements in competition, but still. I don’t think any elite skater can afford to lose hours or even days of valuable practice time with endless trying totally instable jumps just for one happening to be filmed. When they decide to film during a practice session, there should be quite some probability that they’ll record a good attempt.

    Menshov’s Video by the way looks like if had been filmed during one practice session (not only is he in the same practice clothes, also people around him look like the same), the same seems to be the case for Maxim Trankov’s clips. :inavoid:
     
  3. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    The skaters practice the hard combinations, because after they can land easily in the simpler jumps and combinations. They didn't practice, because they want to boast of it on Youtube.:confused: What a weird thought!!!!
     
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  4. Triple Axel

    Triple Axel New Member

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    YES HE DOES!

    And I adore his broken English! Precious that he even tries to speak it! As a primary language, it's tough enough..but as a second, it's got to be HORRID! I am trying to learn to speak Russian. So far: EPIC FAIL!
     
  5. Triple Axel

    Triple Axel New Member

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    I agree with Mutko. it was a mistake. Russia didn't get the 2 spots, and Tarasova's amnesia is hysterical, but strangely, in this day and age, all too typical. And it just KILLS me when people call Gachinski a 'head case' and write him off because he's had a rough go of it as of late. Then, they say "Kovtun is only 17, he never should have had such pressure put on him". Rubbish. Gachinski won a Bronze medal at Worlds when he was at the ripe old age of...what was it..oh, yeah. SEVENTEEN. So for all of those touting Kovtun as the 'next big thing' in Russian skating and burying Gachinski in a premature grave, you just may be in for a rude awakening next season. If Triglav is any indication, the jumps are back for the most part (there were a couple of glitches), and this kid may surprise everyone!!
    God, I love this sport, and cannot WAIT for next season. Is it October yet??
     
  6. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    I feel a little bad for Kovtun and a lot bad for Gatchinski. There is too much pressure on them at such a young age. Last season Kovtun was some nobody coached by Morozov. Then add a quad and Tarasova as a coach and some good results on the JGP and it's all this hype and pressure. Kovtun actually did really well on the junior circuit, and judging from his FS at Worlds, stamina was a big issue and a 30 second shorter program could have made a big difference. After the JGPF, he said he hoped to compete at Europeans, and then wanted to go to JW and try to win to cap off his junior career on a high note. Farris and Brown were really strong at JW, so perhaps Kovtun may not have won, but he definitely would have had a decent chance to win, and very likely would have at least gotten a bronze medal which is a good accomplishment and nothing to sneeze at, but instead he gets sent to Worlds, chokes under the pressure and winds up 17th. So now Fed is either pissed at him, skeptical, or considering him done like they did with Gatchinski last year.

    I think both Kovtun and Gatchinski have tremendous potential and I don't think it was that huge of a deal that Kovtun was sent to Euros after the fall season he had, they wanted to see how he'd fair in seniors, and he did well, was the top placing Russian, but he didn't medal and wasn't phenomenal and beating Voronov was not that big of a victory considering Voronov has never done very well internationally and didn't skate particularly well at Euros. So if his Euros performance was on the cusp of deserving Worlds, they should have had him compete at the Russian Cup Final, or at least Junior Nationals to see what kind of form he was in. If he skated brilliantly at one or two of those competitions and beat Menshov at the Russian Cup Final, then okay, I can kind of see sending him to Worlds and if the same result happened well then it's just nerves or a bad day. But he didn't compete at all after Euros and even not skating so well he would have definitely been the top JW member if he had just been named to that team like he probably should have. Then with a medal he could have boosted his WS and ended his season on a high note giving him some buzz as a good possibility for being the Sochi team member if Plush can't go but instead he's on the scrap heap with Gatchinski and Voronov and it all looks very doom and gloom, and noone even knows about Menshov at this point because he didn't get to compete at Euros or Worlds. Really it was a bit shortsighted.
     
  7. Kelvster

    Kelvster Well-Known Member

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    thanks for the clip with Mishin and Gachinski ...

    Lol ... I love Mishin!! he's one of a kind

    Am starting to like Gachinski ... he's developing as a skater. hope that he can stay till 2018! (Sochi will be difficult for him ...)

    And I agree with pinky's post above .... Sigh ... Russian federation always gives tremendous, unrealistic pressure on the skaters ... and dumps them or puts them in the refridgerator (if you understand my analogy .... sorry it's what we say in Hong Kong) the moment they fail to deliver. It's quite tragic :(
     
  8. Katarzyna

    Katarzyna Well-Known Member

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    Piseev also talked a lot about sending Kovtun to get two spots, guess he now suffers from that same kind of amnesia. :D

    Not to speak at which age Yagudin and Plushenko already won medals at Worlds – both not older than 17. And it was actually Tarassova who compared Kovtun to both of them in terms of greatness. I was actually wondering which drugs she is on. Kovtun sure is a big talent, but this comparison :rofl:
     
  9. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Plushenko was 15 when he won the world bronze. Yagudin was either 16 or 17 when he won a world medal. How dare they say Kovtun was only 17!
     
  10. Katarzyna

    Katarzyna Well-Known Member

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    I found the whole selection process for Euros pretty much questionable and incredibly unfair. But I really thought the whole affair peaked with not sending Kovtun to Russian Cup Final. Though I understand Russian Fed’s Motivation – if Kovtun would have skated badly and placed behind the other guys, it would have been pretty much embarrassing for Russian Fed. (Not that the outcome of Worlds was less embarrassing :saint:)


    It’s tragic and I think it’s nothing that helps Russian skaters to develop consistency. :fragile:
     
  11. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    In defence of pretty much every single young Russian skater: we are talking about two of the all-time great figure skaters here!
     
  12. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Fair point. But Gatchinski and Kovtun are both VERY talented IMO and have loads of potential, but it's not being nurtured properly. Artur did very well when he burst onto the senior scene despite being so young, so while he was "ready" for that level of competition, given his age I don't think he was ready for the pressure, expectations, and criticism that comes along with being at the top of the sport. People got too excited over a few great results he achieved at a very young age and then the expectation was that he would perform to that level all the time, which isn't realistic for someone so young, I mean didn't he grow a few inches recently? Consistently performing to such a high standard while still a teenager and adjusting to one's body physically is really difficult to do. With Kovtun, he did really well as a junior, there wasn't much evidence he was really a threat on the senior ranks except for a decent performance at Russian Nats and a good but not stellar 5th place showing at Europeans. Why not send him to JW so he can win a medal or perhaps even win, help Russia secure 3 spots for the next season, and transition fully next season when he has time to work on the stamina and artistry he needs to be a threat on the senior level? Then the wealth could have been spread too. Kovtun I think has a lot more potential than Menshov, sure, and Menshov is likely near the very end of his career, but where Kovtun showed he was only a force to be reckoned with on the junior arena, then might as well send Kovtun where he can shine and give Menshov at shot at Worlds. I'm not convinced the result would be much different and likely Russia would only have 1 spot regardless, but then Kovtun is saved ridicule/embarrassment and not accused of "stealing" the spot from Menshov and Menshov finally gets to compete. Idk.
     
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  13. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but the comparison is inevitable. People are looking for the next Plushenko, next Yagudin, next Kulik, etc. Here in the USA I am sure we are looking for the next Michelle Kwan, although it's impossible to find one. It's human nature.
     
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  14. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    It's harder in some ways to be a male skater in this situation, because if you can't be a prodigy like Yagudin and Plushenko -- and Gachinski had the pressure of being "mini-Plush" for many years, and it's amazing he survived that -- and you don't have nerves of steel, you're not a Real Man. At least people could look at Sasha Cohen and point out things about her skating that were better than Kwan's, but rarely do you hear that any recent Russian male skater was better than Yagudin and Plushenko. (I preferred Abt and Klimkin, although I understand why Plushenko and Yagudin were better competitors.)

    I think Gachinski is quite responsive to music when he's not jumping -- his circular step sequences last season were some of the highlights for me -- but I don't hear many people compare him favorably to either icon.
     
  15. Katarzyna

    Katarzyna Well-Known Member

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    We are - and the reference made to two of the all-time great was not made to fingerpoint on Kovtun that he had not delivered the same way. I commented on Yagudin and Plushenko because it was actually TAT, who compared Kovtun to these two when mentioning what Kovtun does, has only been done by Yagudin and Plushenko before. She was in so much hype that apparently she had even forgotten about another former student (though Ilia Kulik was not coached by her at that point), who became European Champion at age 17. :rofl:

    But this comparison was not made by the average skating fan, but by TAT and I think it was a big mistake to hype Kovtun the way she did. Not only did it harm other skaters and the reputation of Russian Fed, but I possibly even Kovtun. I think a Junior World title would have been a far better business card to head into his first full senior season next autumn than a 17th place at Worlds. :shuffle:

    Gachinski is actually a quite good example that this type of hype created by a coach isn`t helpful for a skater. :(
     
  16. nuge

    nuge Well-Known Member

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    Sorry this is off topic but when will we know if Stepanova/Bukin have decided to stay in junior or go to senior ? Thanks.
     
  17. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    My favourite programs of his are still St Louis Blues from the 2011-2012 season and The Bolt from his Senior debut. He does have a personality, and sometimes it shows on the ice. I'd like to see it more often.

    Wait, what? What grand achievement of Kovtun's was supposedly something only Plushenko and Yagudin had done before? Right now I can't think of anything...the JGP was certainly not around when they were age-eligible, they were both finishing MUCH higher than 5th at Euros when they were 17 and let's not even talk about their Worlds results at that age...

    Even if Kovtun had only won a medal at JW, the form of the two Americans was so strong that it still would have been considered a very good business card. And he would almost certainly have medalled, I can't see why he wouldn't have.

    Sometimes I do wish the coaches would just hush and let the skaters get on with it. I can see what they're trying to do sometimes - for example, around about Russian Nationals time Mishin talked about how this season was not important because his focus was on Gachinski fulfilling his Olympic champion potential the next season - that, I think, was supposed to be a confidence booster, a sort of "I know you're having a rough season but I still believe in you" and yet, it all contributes to the pressure.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2013
  18. babayaga

    babayaga Active Member

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    I remember reading in their coach's interview that they consider preparing two sets of programs - junior and senior, planning to compete on senior GP and then on Junior Worlds. But they said the final decision will be made after consultation with the federation.
     
  19. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    Wow that's crazy - but good for them - they can use the opportunity to improve their artistry more.
     
  20. Katarzyna

    Katarzyna Well-Known Member

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    I adore Abt and I really liked Klimkin, but due to various reason they rarely managed to shine in competition and I can see how the average occasional viewer didn’t take so much notice of them compared to Yagudin and Plushenko, who delivered great performances consistently and won big titles. However, strangely enough even skaters who also managed to win big titles and delivered numerous wonderful skates, like Urmanov or Kulik, seem to be almost forgotten as well. :confused:


    Thank you for the info. I really liked them at JW despite they skated to Bolero in the free. :scream: So I’m looking forward to their new programmes. :)
     
  21. Domshabfan

    Domshabfan Well-Known Member

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  22. nuge

    nuge Well-Known Member

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  23. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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  24. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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  25. Sylvia

    Sylvia Bring on the JGP & Sr B comps!

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    Tatjana Flade just tweeted:
    "K. Menshov (RUS) dislocated his right shoulder in a fall on 3A. He was taken to hospital. So sad. Get well soon, Kostia!"

    Menshov had landed his opening 4T+2T and 4T before falling hard on his 3A in his WTT FS earlier today and was forced to withdraw. :(

    ETA Tatjana Flade's tweet from Japan on Saturday morning:
    "Update on K. Menshov (RUS): The shoulder was put back into place under anesthetic. Kostia was released from hospital and back in the hotel."
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2013
  26. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Too bad. Unfortunate way to end his great season.
     
  27. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Kostia at J-ambulance: http://twitter.com/kudryavkaaa/status/322703294818553856/photo/1
     
  28. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    It was good to see him in the K&C. I wonder how long that sling will have to be worn.
     
  29. DaiKozOda

    DaiKozOda Active Member

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  30. quiqie

    quiqie Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Apr 13, 2013
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