From Russia With Love - Spring into Summer 2013

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Mar 17, 2013.

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  1. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    He does have a point though. It is like if the title 'world champion' (and Olympic champion) will loose its value. Suddenly there will be so many champions... and some of them would have never earned the title on their own. Let's say Japan wins the team event (based on the strength of their men and ladies). That will mean that their pair (Takahashi with new partner) will be comparable to let's say Savchenko/Szolkovy or Volosozhar/Trankov (or whoever wins the Olympic pair event). The same for their dancers - Reed/Reed's title will be suddenly comparable to Virtue/Moir or Davis/White.
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2013
  2. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Like in fencing, biathlon, swimming, ski jumping and so on.... I don't think that would be wrong.
  3. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    Besides i don't think the individual events will suffer. There is to much history to put the team Gold on the same level as say the Ladies event. I do worry though if a big name skater gets hurt in the team competition. Then there will be hell to pay.
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2013
  4. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    I don't see how it will lose the value of the individual title. IN gymnastics there is a team OGM, an individual all around, and a gold for each apparatus. Each gold medallist is a champion but the individual all around is the most prestigious. With the history of FS, the singles, pairs, etc. champions will still have the prestige they have had over more than 100 years.
  5. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    The only thing i don't like about it is the timing. The team competition needed to be after the individual events. WTF is Speedy thinking?
  6. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    It wasn't the ISU's or Cinquanta's decision: http://www.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130316&content_id=42839970&vkey=ice_news
  7. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    His point is silly: they will have become World or Olympic champions in something completely different. If you look at the way the ISU has handled results, it's philosophically similar to the way gymnastics handles team vs. individual events: point totals by individual count towards individual things, in gymnastics, the individual events, in FS, towards SB and TES minimums, while the discrete individual rahkings are irrelevant to the event finish, in FS WS points.

    This year in WTT, Japan received no points in Pairs, and, as we've learned, 7 is better than 0: here it was the difference between bronze and one point out of gold position. If R/R and T/K don't compete, Japan could have the best singles and still not be in contention for a medal, let alone make the final. If they earn points toward qualifying for the final and/or the podium, they will have done their job to earn that placement, even if they end up last.

    Japan is unlikely to medal, though, unless T/K become very, very good in a very short time.
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2013
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  8. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Yes but in gymnastics to win team gold you have to have a team of gymnasts who are ALL pretty decent. Whereas in skating it seems that if one of the entry is pretty useless, the others still may make up the points. Look at this years WTT. Japan would have been second if they sent any even novice pair (or any pair created last minute, such as for example make Oda skate with Haruka Imai). They lost seven points because they didn't have any entry in pairs, but with even the worst entry made of skaters who usually don't skate together, they would have been second. So would it be fair that any last minute 'created pair' such as Oda-Imai would have Olympic medal that would be comparable to Savchenko/Szolkovy, Volosozhar/Trankov or perhaps Duhamel/Radford?
  9. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Keep in mind WTT has more emphasis on singles. Japan will not be in as strong of a position at the Olympics when the disciplines have equal weight.
  10. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but it still leaves door open for three entries making up for the fourth weak entry and the weak entry getting undeserved medal. Until now the Olympic medal meant something. It meant that you are a pretty decent skater if you earned Olympic medal. But with the team event, it will mean that others can earn it for you and your skills/ability may be just around 20th place at worlds.
  11. Mayra

    Mayra Well-Known Member

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    Even in gymnastics, the team event has evolved into a group of specialists who score really well on 1 or 2 events and maybe 1 or 2 all around skaters. McKayla Maroney did one event at the Olympics. Then there are teams who don't score well in one event and make up for it by scoring high in others. The Romanian team sucks at UB, but they make up for lost points in events like BB. It's a give and take.
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  12. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    But the Romanian team didn't win Olympic team gold...
  13. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Yes: WTT uses two scores from singles, while the Olympic Team Event will use one SP/SD score and one FS/FD score per discipline. Japan should be one of a handful of nations that likely is vying for two of the five spots, with US, Canada, and Russia likely to get the other three.

    Italy is the only nation that doesn't host a GP that has the best chance to gain one of those two spots, if Kostner skates well in the SP (assuming she will skate the SP). The GP nations are pretty much guaranteed to be one of the ten teams in the event, and the team event shouldn't have any impact on GP picks.


    And the chances of Japan winning the Team Gold at Sochi are minimal, given that they can only get credit for one man and one women in Sochi. They have a shot to get into the final, because it's based on placements, not point totals, but almost no chance for a medal, unless all of the other nations' skaters crash and burn.

    It's back to the famous life saving story, that a great swimmer goes to save a drowning person, who fights the rescuer, and the rescuer has to go to the bottom and push off, ever, and over. Exhausted, he gets close to the edge but can't make it, and an old person extends a cane and pulls them both to dock. The save doesn't happen without every piece in place.
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2013
  14. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    I used Japan as an example. I don't really care what nationality will be the weak entry that will be getting Olympic medal through the efforts of more skilled team mates. I just think it is wrong, no matter what nationality the weaker entry will be from. The same like Russian men getting Olympic medal through the efforts of Volosozhar/Trankov, Adelina or Liza or Julia and Bobrova/Soloviev.
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  15. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    The ISU needed to stick to it's guns and say the team competition will be at the end of the Olympic Games. What was NBC going to do bail on them? Highly unlikely with all that money they paid to broadcast the games.
  16. Katarzyna

    Katarzyna Well-Known Member

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    Sylvia -thank you for the link. :) In the article they also mention that in the U.S. Nina Mozer will seek special medical care by a kinesiologist, who helped already in the past. Good to see that apart from technical issues she also very much takes care of good health of her students.

    I found this interview with Adelina Sotnikova on WTT, the past season and future plans linked below the article on V/T very interesting: http://fsrussia.ru/news/560_adelina-sotnikova-navernoe-spokojstvie-menya-i-podvelo--/. I tried to translate the questions and the answers she gave:

    - Adelina, is always difficult to skate last, in particular skate last at the team competition.
    - Lately, it's my favorite number.

    - Did excitement prevent a clean skate?
    - Today surprisingly I didn’t worry and become upset. Possibly this calmness didn`t help. I went on the ice very calm and confident. But obviously something went wrong. We will analyze what was it. Why did it happen? I’m not satisfied with my skate. Though it was not the worst, it could have been better. A lot better.

    - But you fought till the end.
    - Of course I fought and kept on trying. If I had not tried that after the fall, I skated even worse.

    - What did your coach say after your skate?
    - She was very upset, because she knew that today in training I did everything perfectly. Also in the warm-up this time. But suddenly I fell because of some nonsense. Of course my coach wants to understand why this happens. Why the short program was perfect, but the long one didn`t work.

    - Yesterday the Captain of our team, Maxim Trankov, openly admitted that again the whole burden is on the shoulders of our girls.
    - Yes, it was like that. But I tried not to think about it that we had to bear all the responsibility and that the result of the world team trophy actually depended on us.

    - You participated the 2nd time in this competition. When was it more difficult?
    - In the past year. This year I was very calm, actually I’m still shocked, how calm I was.

    - If you assess the results of this season, what mark would you give to yourself on a ten-part scale?
    - I would give myself a four, maybe a three, as I might have skated better and won steadily. For example at the Grand Prix. This year I didn’t reach the Grand Prix Final. The best competition was the European Championships. I won the short program and placed 2nd in Zagreb.

    - You gained experience.
    - Yes, that is experience. However, in the pre-olympic season it was necessary to present myself at the best. But in the end I could do that somewhere, somewhere else not. Now next season I need to skate everywhere perfectly.

    - Do you know you further plans for work?
    - Now I need to go home. I need to pass exams, ЕГЭ (Единый государственный экзамен – that’s probably similar to a-levels?) After that we will think about music, programmes. How they will look like, which emotions, pictures, presentation …

    - Were these competitions very much emotionally draining?
    - To go on the ice after Akiko, when there was such a noise, which hit my ears like a drum. that was very difficult. It is not easy to skate after a Japanese girl in Japan.

    - Is it in general difficult to attend the competition all day to cheer for your teammates?
    - It was the same last year. I worried and survived. I was good that I didn’t watch Kostia yesterday. If I had seen his fall, then I probably would have totally shivered today. In fact this is terrible. You skate your free program, fall and … it’s such a pity. Our whole team supports him. Today we tried to arrange that Kostia didn`t pay attention to his arm, so that it was easier for him to overcome it all.


    She seems to be a very self-critical young lady. I had to laugh about her mentioning falling due to nonsense. :lol:
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  17. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    She fell on the first flip- like she singled the first flip at euros. Obviously a huge glaring problem is flip control.
  18. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for translating!
  19. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Sot should either use the Lip strategy of 2 2axel3toes in the free skate or else try the 3flip3toe. Her flip is so much better in quality than the lutz which she always flutzes and pitches forward on the landing, and her flip isn't any more inconsistent.

    Perhaps:

    SP: 3flip3toe, 3loop, 2axel

    LP: 3flip3toe, 2axel3toe, 3lutz // 3flip, 3loop2toe2loop, 3sal, 2axel


    If the 3flip3toe is too hard for her to rotate still, perhaps:

    SP: 3toe3toe, 3loop or 3flip, 2axel

    LP: 2axel3toe2toe, 2axel3toe, 3lutz // 3flip2toe2loop, 3flip, 3loop, 3sal

    By the way I am all for her going back to Swan Lake for next season.
  20. Eislauffan

    Eislauffan Well-Known Member

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    As for the timing of the team event, I also thought it would be much better to have it at the end as the focus is obviously on the invidual events. However, Patrick Chan said at the WTT press conference that he likes having the team event first. He felt that this gives the skaters the opportunity to get over their competition jitters. Also he said that a successful team event can create a very positive energy for the skaters. He said that skaters are training every day and that physically it should not be such a problem to compete in the team and the individual events. After listening to Patrick's comments, Daisuke Takahashi agreed. He said he hadn't looked at it this way before. Patrick only felt that it is tough for the pairs. Ashley Wagner also said she does not have a problem with the schedule, especially since the Ladies are the last ones to compete.

    As for Russia competing in the team event, Maxim Trankov said that he and Tatiana Volosozhar probably will do the short program at the team event and another team should do the long program. He also mentioned the possibility not to compete in the team event at all if their man doesn't enter. They only have one man and depending on who it will be he might not do the team event because he has to compete four times. It will be interesting to see who it is and what strategy they have. Actually I think their man should focus on the team event because his chances to medal there are probably higher than in the individual event. It all comes down to who it is and how likely are his chances to make the podium in the Men's singles.

    As for the comparison between team and invidual medal - there is much more focus on the individuals in all sports that have team events. People will remember much longer who won the gold in the pairs event than which pair was on let's say team USA that won gold in the team event. So I don't think that the team event takes away from the individual events.
  21. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    http://www.morozov-team.com/article/90.html

    Via Google Translate:
    "Now all the skaters involved in my group, rest and recover before the new season - said Nikolai Morozov. - For April 23 we fly to the first staging camp in the U.S.. Prepare for the new season - to put the program to work on the supports, jump elements - we start in New York. The group - Elena Ilinykh and Nikita Katsalapov, Alena Leonova and Artur Dmitriev. A little later we will be joined Frenchman Florent Amodio and Japan's Daisuke Takahashi. Also hold a gathering in America Tatiana Volosozhar and Maxim Trankov, with which we will work on new programs. "
  22. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    What about Pushkash and Gureiro? He didn't mention them. Did they leave him?
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  23. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Daisuke... :(
  24. shah

    shah Well-Known Member

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    Dai :wall:
    Well, I guess we shouldn't expect revolutionary programmes from V/T, again :/...
  25. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe Morozov will find new lows for them and I/K. I have no idea how he could come up with material worse than that Godfather SP and Ghost FD, but if there is anyone who can do it, it's him. I'm a bit excited. But also sad because of all the wasted talent.
  26. reut

    reut Active Member

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    They mentioned in a few interviews that they are completely glad with Morozov's works and glad with the "second mark" they receive for them. Why to change something that works well, right? Especially now, when they got gold and were 20 points ahead. So don't expect any "Pina"s from them.
    Which is a real pity, of course.
  27. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    Volosozhar had mentioned they would like to work with Camerlengo. I'm not sure if she meant this season or just in general it was pretty vague.
  28. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    I don't think the international judges were less appreciative of Morozov's choreographies for Takahashi than Wilson's and Camerlengo's. Quality on the jumps, especially the quad, is where Takahashi is lacking and what matters IMO is what Morozov can do for Takahashi as a technical coach.

    Holds true for Volosozhar/Trankov, if most of the big tricks work for them, they have nothing to worry about. I/K is a bit more complicated case.
  29. reut

    reut Active Member

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    I can't be sure I read ALL their interviews :), but in the interview I saw Camerlengo was mentioned by journalist as an option and Volosozhar answered that they prefer not to experiment, everything is fine with what they have and that Camerlengo doesn't have much experience with pairs. Interview was taken during TEB 2011 AFAIK. Maybe since then they changed their plans? But in their later interviews I saw the same motive of "no more changes needed".
  30. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Not necessarily. It can be where the flip is in the program, for example if it is after something that she considers difficult, so she spends her energy and concentration on the thing before and then looses concentration for the flip, or it can be the position of the flip on the ice. For example, I used to have in my program Salchow that was coming against the barrier and although I always had plenty of space for the Salchow, I rushed it too much (worried that I would run out of space) and it never worked. Then I swapped Salchow with loop; loop wasn't a problem at that particular space in the program because you go into it backwards so it wasn't playing with my head that I have to rush otherwise I will end up on the barrier, and the Salchow wasn't a problem at the place where the loop originally was. Sometimes there is a really silly reason why someone can't land a jump in one program although they may be landing it fine out of program or at any other place in the program. We will see how she is doing with her flips next season with new programs.
  31. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Well the first flip is after 3/3 combo where she sometimes ur the triple toe and then the second flip is usually after tHe 2a 3t where she usually urs the triple toe. So having flips after uring triple toes is probably wrong. Maybe she starts with 3 flip then does 3lz-e 3tur and puts the salchow in between the 2/3 and flip. That's worth experimenting with.
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2013
  32. skaterdelight

    skaterdelight New Member

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    My feelings exactly.
  33. Katarzyna

    Katarzyna Well-Known Member

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    I agree with Hanca – having troubles to land a jump in competition does not always mean that it’s a bad jump for a skater. If the flip would be a trouble jump for Adelina, she’d probably replaced it by a loop for her short programme. My personal impression is that she has kind of mental block with it – when she was in Oberstdorf, she just did fine in practice and she landed two triple flips in her exhibition. Again a skater would probably not pick his trouble jumps for exhibitions. ;)

    But unfortunately that jump didn`t work a couple of times when it counted and now it looks like Adelina does to much thinking before entering it. At CoR for example you could see her hesitation when doing it with the result that she’d lost her timing for that jump. I think she just needs more confidence and let it naturally go like in practice – but then this is of course quite easily said, but not that easily done. :shuffle:
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  34. Maofan7

    Maofan7 Well-Known Member

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    New article on Alena Leonova entitled "Leonova tries sports journalism." Reads:-

    .
  35. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Triple-triple and 2A-triple T are hard combinations. I think what may be happening is that Adelina concentrates so much on those combinations that she doesn't concentrate on the immediately following jump because she may consider it in comparison easy. Also, if she makes a mistake on the combination, she may thing about it for a few seconds while she should be concentrating on what is coming next - then she makes a mistake on the flip. We will see if the same issue comes up with her new programs.
  36. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    That's why so many Sometimes do combos second after starting with a solo. So if she makes a mistake she will be onto her third jump! Hopefully having done the rotations and or landing the first two. But it's best do experiment from not to the first gp including senior b's because changing programs around as the season progresses rarely works. Like Doing different things at different gps. And maybe have a buffer jump be an easier jump - but sometimes even the easiest can be tricky If the heads not there. So there's lots to work on.
  37. Triple Axel

    Triple Axel New Member

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    YES!! I was so excited for him after watching this skate. it wasn't perfect, but it was MUCH better in the realm of his jumps. He actually nailed the quad in the FP, the landing, rotation and take-off were beautiful... Sure, he didn't plan the double in the SP, but these things happen. I LOVED his interview after the competition...Wonderful way to end Hell Season, and perhaps the perfect way to get back on track to be the skater I know he truly is. Oh, and HE DIDN'T Fall!
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2013
  38. Triple Axel

    Triple Axel New Member

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    Nah. It's just Alyosha being Alyosha. Something happened to the sweet kid who won the Olympics back in 2002. Seriously. He's very cynical now, and looks at the world, and especially the SKATING world, usually with angry, judgemental eyes. It breaks my heart. Sad to say, I still adore him.
  39. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

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    I see nothing cynical, or angry and judgemental about this statement. Firstly, it's true. Secondly, knowing what I do about Yagudin, it was most likely meant in a joking manner. He just has a dry sense of humor like that - yes, probably a bit blunt and not understandable to everyone.
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  40. quiqie

    quiqie Well-Known Member

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    Yagudin is not cynical, he is just painfully honest. Always.
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