From Russia With Love - Spring into Summer 2013

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Mar 17, 2013.

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  1. Katarzyna

    Katarzyna Well-Known Member

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    Somehow I think Gachinski should have switched coaches about one or two years ago. Mishin for sure is a great coach if it comes to technique, but he openly admitted that other skaters step aside when Plushenko is around. It don`t think that`s mentally healthy surrounding for Gachinsky. As soon as Plushenko is making a comeback, the poor guy has to step aside and his coach’s main focus is Plushy and as soon as he was taking a break from eligible skating, everybody seemed to demand perfect competitive results from Gachinski which reflect a No. 1 position in the team.

    That can`t be good for a skater who is still developing – one day the other guy, one day the expected leading man in team who has to produce. But the problem of course is that it’s difficult to find an alternative, who teaches good technique but is also powerful in terms of politics. Cause I`m pretty sure Russian Federation would not be very fond of such a coaching change. :(
     
  2. Eislauffan

    Eislauffan Well-Known Member

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    Russian Fed general director V. Piseev said that Stolbova/Klimov have not (yet) switched to N. Mozer.
    http://rsport.ru/figure_skating/20130403/654819908.html
    He said that the question is under consideration and that the Figure Skating Federation of St. Petersburg has to look at it.

    Well, I guess if they want to switch and Mozer takes them, they can't be stopped in the end. The Petersburg Federation doesn't want to loose them obviously, because then they'll have only Kawaguchi/Smirnov left. Their junior teams fell apart and I am not sure if Gerboldt/Enbert exist anymore.
     
  3. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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    going all in one to Mozer wont be good, she is getting way too much credit when V/T were already amazing to pair with

    meanwhile for JGP might be possible to continue another skater to sweep the top podium: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zW92WN4fBa8
     
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  4. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    S/K did earn their way to Europeans. They were the first substitutes because of their results at nationals. If they were not good at nationals, someone else could have been sent.

    I know that S/S wasn't there, so with S/S there they would have been 4th, but it is how things happen in life. When Chan won his world championships, he didn't say "I won because ...(list of previous world and Olympic champions)...are not here". And Carolina Kostner didn't say last year "I won but only because Yu-Na Kim is not here". People remember a skater for their achievement, not for who else did not compete at that one competition. They were lucky, but they still managed to beat in that competition everyone apart of 2 other Russian pairs.
     
  5. Katarzyna

    Katarzyna Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for the update, Eislauffan. :)

    Talking about skaters based in St. Petersburg are there any news on Ksenia Makarova?
     
  6. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Russia has a few very talented young girls coming, but this season it won't be that easy. US response to Russian dominance at junior level is "Let's grow our own Polina". And their Polina will be eligible to JGP next season; she won their junior nationals and she has two triple-triple combinations in her FS, so she has the technical content to fight with the young Russians. The question is whether she is consistent. It will depend who can manage their nerves and perform under pressure.

    (By the way, their Polina is also of Russian background - after her mother.)
     
  7. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    V/T weren't a pair in anything but name when they went to Mozer, and they said they had different technique on the major elements. They didn't just spring from the thigh of Zeus or meet across fields with her in a flowery summer dress like in a feminine hygiene commercial.
     
  8. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    I'm not taking about other skaters.

    S/K were alternates who were lucky enough to get an opportunity to go to Euros (not once but twice) that they wouldn't have had normally. Same with G/E in 2011.

    It's not like they beat K/S to get there and S/S for the medal. They were lucky to get the bronze when they did and have K/S and S/S to thank for it. You made it sound like going from 3rd to 6th was a huge fall from grace when in reality they wouldn't have been good enough to go themselves without the misfortune of others.

    Maybe that will change this year and they can rightfully earn a spot only time will tell.

    They were only a pair in name, but both were very accomplished skaters. It's not like they were novice/juniors who didn't know their right from left and Moser pulled them up to a world gold medal from scratch. Both of them were 4th in the world at one point in time with different partners and coaches. I really think any coach would have done well for them. Having to vary the technique of good skaters who already know how to do a throw is a far cry from teaching skaters who have never done one before.

    I would like to see how far she can take a brand new pairs team.
     
  9. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    I never argued otherwise that they were great pairs skaters who had success with other partners.

    Sometimes it's more difficult to have people unlearn skills than it is to teach them new ones. V/T adjusted quite quickly, but there was no guarantee, and that they became a couple was a risk.

    I disagree that any coach would have done well with them by definition: I think Mozer gave them a good place to re-adjust and deal with the pressure. From the moment they were announced they were already being touted as the saviors of Sochi and the great Russian pairs tradition.

    Fine, but that's generally not the way the system has worked in Russia, and they seem to be getting back to having developmental coaches feeding to top coaches.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2013
  10. SLIVER

    SLIVER Well-Known Member

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    I totally agree, I am sure she has done a great job but V/T were extremely talented (two of the most talented) and experienced skaters around, it certainly doesn't mean she can work miracles with B/L and S/K. Besides, 3 top pairs before Olympics, really?? I wouldnt be v happy if I were V/T.
     
  11. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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    one of the three will be left out, S/K ?? maybe after 2014 their time will come
    why I'm puzzles they didn't go to Moskvina because she will retire ??? :confused:
     
  12. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    The highlighted part of sentence can be applied to most pairs at Europeans and 4CC. The weak pairs are 'lucky enough' that there is no one stronger in their country, and the stronger pairs are 'lucky enough' that either they were not inured, or that someone in their country is not even better than them...a lot in elite skating is about luck. Pair A who is generally better than a pair B may fall in a competition that is used as a qualifying competition for Europeans and then pair B is sent instead... No system is ever completely fair, and a lot of it is to do with luck. The bottom line is that S/K were good enough to be alternates which means that they were 4th in a country who has a very strong pair program. As you saw, being 4th in such country can mean that you are actually stronger than most countries number 1. If they were not good enough to be fourth in their country and lucky that another pair above them couldn't go, they wouldn't go. But to claim that they didn't qualify is incorrect. They did qualify and therefore they went and competed (and got bronze medal).
     
  13. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    S&K were lucky with the WDs in 2012 but they did make the most of it by winning a medal, and it wasn't a medal by default. They had to beat Berton/Hotarek who are a decent team (GP medalists). This year they skated worse, losing to B&H and also James/Cipres. S&K absolutely could have won bronze again this year. K&S did not skate well at all and this would have been an opportune time to beat them and try to get a Worlds ticket. So yes, I think S&K regressed this year.

    I don't think V&T will mind the extra pairs. This is the group that swept Euros in 2012 and Maxim was beyond thrilled. I think he'll just love mentoring two younger pairs, sharing his wisdom... he likes to talk and feels he has very important things to say. ;) I know B&L beat them in the GPF LP, but they're hardly a credible threat to V&T.
     
  14. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    Not even close to being the same thing. The best in the country is the best in the country-not 4th place or in S/K case not chosen to represent and only sent on a technicality.
     
  15. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    :lol: How true.

    A technicality is when someone didn't sign the right paperwork by a deadline. An injury substitution is a regular occurance that's codified in the entry/selection process.
     
  16. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    That's not a technicality, that's irresponsibility.

    As bad as it is to have a teammate injured, S/K were the recipients of their misfortune. S/K were not “selected” to the Euros team based on their skating V/T, K/S and B/L were, only by default two years in a row, were they selected to go at the last minute and neither time did the fed see fit to send them to worlds even with a bronze medal in their pocket.

    Technicality, luck, “a regular occurrence that's codified in the entry/selection process” whatever you choose to define it...it would be great to see them actually get a spot on the team without waiting around to see if something happens to a teammate who place above you.
     
  17. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    It is pretty common to be sent to 4CC/Europeans/worlds because someone better was injured. Pechalat-Bourzat were injured, another French dance couple went to Europeans instead. When US pair No 1 was injured this season, their number 2,3 and 4 went to compete. The same way someone from Canada got lucky that Weaver-Poje couldn't go to 4CC because she was injured. That doesn't mean that whoever replaced them went there purely on technicality. they had to deserve it! They had to meet the qualifying score given by ISU and be the next in the line in their country. Would you say that Mirai Nagasu got her second GP event on technicality, that actually she didn't qualify? Because she got it only because someone else withdrew.

    What you are saying (the highlighted part in your post) sound pretty arrogant, because injuries are a normal part of competitive skating, and I believe that every skater at some stage of their career benefited from someone else's withdrawal. There is no shame in it. It would be different if Stolbova went and whacked any of her team mates over their head to get their spot...but she didn't.
     
  18. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Your original comment was that it's not like dropping from 3rd to 6th at Euros was a fall from grace because they only got that 3rd due to withdrawals. That was after hanca's statement that they have been inconsistent in seniors, dropping from bronze to a 6th place. I agree that their bronze was possible due to withdrawals, but they did drop in 2013, behind the Italians and the French, so I agree with hanca that their results in 2013 were disappointing for them. B&H were not great at Euros 2013 and it was within S&K's abilities to beat them. They are not performing up to their potential in the GP either, so I think a coaching change is not a bad idea.
     
  19. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Because no bureaucracy has ever send the wrong paperwork or indicated the wrong deadline.
     
  20. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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    Maria Sotskova won the SP (66.14) with the above performance.

    Here's is Sotskova's 2nd place FS (122.11) from the same competition: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXNH46FUXfE
    Sotskova placed 2nd overall (186.25).

    Results page: http://fsrussia.ru/upl/results/1213/nno2013/index.htm
    ETA: This is the Nationals for singles skaters "born in 1996 and younger; partners in pair skating and ice dancing - born in 1994 and younger."

    Evgenia Medvedeva placed 1st overall (188.94). Her 3rd place SP (60.28): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VOweXUledE ; her 1st place FS (128.66): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vPZc8nqAHc

    Natalia Ogoreltseva's 2nd place SP (62.44): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jr3SYi77RAs

    All 3 girls will be old enough to debut on the JGP this fall, I believe?

    ETA that I started a new thread in Kiss and Cry for this competition: 2013 Russian Championship (younger skaters), April 1-4
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2013
  21. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    If they feel they have received everything their old coach had to offer then they should leave and grow with someone else to be the best team they can be.

    I don’t believe they have been inconsistent the two seasons they have been seniors. My original point was they have been the recipient of good fortune be it competitions and/or medals due to the misfortune of other pairs. Have other skaters throughout time benefited? Absolutely, Trankov even said the gold at the GPF was great but he didn't beat the Germans to get it. Just like the Italians and French benefited from the Russians skating so badly at Euros (although it certainly didn’t help them at Worlds) but I was only referring to S/K opportunities.

    Getting 6th at Euros was a disappointment I’m sure but without the withdrawal of B/L, they wouldn’t have even been there in the first place. So should they be sad for 6th place or happy they got to compete in the first place? I'm not sure how well they expected to do at Euros, maybe they knew their chances to medal again were slim.

    Is it fair to send them? Is it the rules? Sure but it still means they were the second choice not the first.
     
  22. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    I am glad you approve. :rolleyes: That's what they are trying to do.

    I don't really care whether you believe or not that they have been inconsistent the two seasons they have been seniors. If you look at their results, you will see that it doesn't show very consistent competition results, but you can believe whatever you wish to. You can believe that you are an angel, if that makes you happy.

    I don't think that Stolbova-Klimov would be happy with sixth place at Europeans. I doubt that their opinion will be "Oh, well, we got into Europeans by an accident anyway, so any result will do." You may find out that every skater wants to skate as clean as they are capable. If they can't medal, they want at least to skate to their full potential, so that they can show something for their effort and hard work.

    And you seem to be the only one who cares whether a skater was sent to the competition as a substitute or whether they were the first choice...
     
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  23. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    I don't know. IMHO Mishin is good for Gachinsky. Plushy skates to Sochi( if he can, as Plushy said it is 50-50% ). Gachi will be only 20. When Gachi won his silver on ECH, he also trained together with Plush. And they have own time with Mishin. ( Mishin already is the first coach of Tuk too.) I think it's not problem, look at Zueva's pupils.
     
  24. Katarzyna

    Katarzyna Well-Known Member

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    I don’t deny that Mishin in theory is actually a great coach for Gachinski, but not with Plushenko around. You can’t compare with Zueva – V/M and D/W are competing with same level of experience with comparable record of success. She apparently devotes equal attention to BOTH couples. Plushenko on the other hand is a legend, Gachinski still an upcoming, though certainly very talented and given his age already quite decorated skater. But overall definitely far away from the league of Plushenko. - One competition almost beating a legend does not make that skater a legend himself. :shuffle:

    Mishin – judging statements he made himself in interviews – does not pay such equal attention to Plushenko and Gachinski. How can such a work surrounding give Gachinski the competitive mindset to move from an upcoming talent to a real champion? Can you think of e.g. young Yagudin being willing to step aside, just because there is a legendary skater around? And yes, sure this will change after Sochi – but then I don`t think having to sit and wait until Plushy retires is ideal work surrounding for the time being, in particular when other skaters like Kovtun meanwhile have appropriate work surrounding and support to turn into champions. :(
     
  25. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    hm. I remember, the young Plush was in same group with Urmanov, Yagudin etc. Could he improve? I think this is a bit polarized. I'm sure if Artur changes his coach, it would be worse for him than if he stays with Mishin. They already make his new program, Anna Karenina.
     
  26. quiqie

    quiqie Well-Known Member

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  27. Jeschke

    Jeschke Well-Known Member

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  28. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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  29. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Their daughter has a great expression.

    Thank you so much, quiqie! The magazine has lots of great photos.
     
  30. lulu

    lulu New Member

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    Aww she's just darling. I didn't even recognize Domnina in that picture. LOL
     
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