From Russia With Love - Autumn 2012

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Sep 12, 2012.

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  1. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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  2. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    I thought it was the YP levels

    The second set is always level 2! That's a problem with getting below w/p. Two parts they get N's. Need to work harder on Yankee polka!! Not just be more exciting. What does that mean?
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2012
  3. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    I think that the YP is something that they will be working on as well, but I agree with his sentiments on the end of the dance. It could be more exciting, and that might get more PCS. Also, I noticed in China that it seemed like no one knew that the dance was over. I know that audience reaction isn't factored into scoring, but it can have an effect over time on the way that people perceive a couple.
  4. shah

    shah Well-Known Member

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    I/K is simply disastrous - who would have thought I would miss last season's "Ave Maria"? that "speaking" section is pathetic - "Omg, he's shot" and dramatic arms flailing follows... aargh, I'm so frustrated - where is the team I saw in Toruń in 2009?
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  5. babayaga

    babayaga Active Member

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    This part is killing me. I have to close my eyes of embarrassment during it, but then it's ok afterwards :)
  6. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    Oh I have a completely different view on their FD. When that part (actually starting from the "Hey there esse" part) I start cackling at the top of my lungs because I find it so hilarious!
  7. babayaga

    babayaga Active Member

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    I think your reaction is better :D I should lighten up and take it easier.
  8. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    I think part of it is that I've never been the biggest IK fan, but I love BS (they are my second favorite ice dance team after VM currently competing). So each time I see IK, part of me is happy that BS will have even less trouble taking back (or holding on to depending on who you ask) the Russian number 1 status.

    But still most of it is me finding Morozov's "masterpiece" so bombastically awful. It's like the Friday of ice dance!
  9. Cloudy_Gumdrops

    Cloudy_Gumdrops New Member

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    B&S's programs suck too. :D
  10. babayaga

    babayaga Active Member

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    Well, in my most humble opinion, BS's programs this season are fantastic :p But, to be fair, I expect IK's short dance to be quite good. Looked lovely on the show video.
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  11. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    I love both of their programs, and I think that most of the community appreciates the fact that they moved to Zhulin, so I don't feel that it is my personal bias getting in the way.
    Also, I'm excited to see the new ending to BS's SD. I'm assuming, however, that the new ending won't be performed until Euros.
  12. shan

    shan Well-Known Member

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    The first time I saw the program, I thought they were going to break into jazz hands. :scream:
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  13. Moka-Ananas

    Moka-Ananas Man's Ruin

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    should. have. stayed. with. ZHULIN.

    end of story.
  14. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    There's an interview going around on tumblr with Mishin that's been partly translated into English. It's mostly about Plushy's birthday, but there is some info about Artur as well.

    Here we are:

  15. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    Nah - they were already making so many excuses about how bad of a coach Zhulin was. Now they can't make excuses.
    As for the program being weak in transitions, I am more worried about the fact that they still don't seem to be able to handle it. They don't have the stamina to keep the program going in this state so why should Morozov put in transitions which would make them look even worse?
  16. MarieM

    MarieM Well-Known Member

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    They were not making excuses. Everyone around them (families, russian federation, people I don't know about) was doing that, because everyone knew this team is the raw talent and had that star quality, that russian ice dancers have lost in the last ten years.
    Problem is, they lost that quality by going to Morozov, who, although he was kind of brilliant as an ice dancer, can't seem to train them well. They lack in everything they were known for with that craptastic program.
    Their lifts haven't improved, their steps are not clean, and it's a step forward from last year's program where, at least, they were challenging themselves.
    It looks like they haven't work their ass off.

    Zhulin will never take them back. I doubt they have any choice left as of now but to stick with Morozov unless the Russian Fed makes Krylova take them.
  17. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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    Just as I suspected, Gachinski has nerve issues when competing
    and needs psychological help, he just doesnt have the nerves like Plushy and even Tuk's
  18. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh New Member

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    Then again, how many skaters have nerves of steel the way Plushenko does?

    He may be inconsistent but still manages to get his act together on occasions. That's more than can be said for a lot of the Russian men....
  19. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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    he is getting too inconsistent
    his last good skate was at Euros, his scores now is in 190+ range. I bet he will finish at the bottom of the men in CoR
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2012
  20. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    Zhulin told them the first time he took them back that if they left again, it would be the end forever.
    And I don't think that Krylova would ever take them. She has enough teams as it is, and she doesn't have any top Russian teams, so the Russian fed can't threaten to take anyone away from her. And Ilinykh and Katsalapov won't leave Morozov as long as Morozov and Ilinykh are dating.

    And they were making excuses - they kept talking about how they got zero attention from Zhulin and how he wasn't ever around to teach them which is why they didn't make progress.

    Also, while I agree with you that Morozov isn't a great coach, it isn't like Ilinykh and Katsalapov are doing much on their own. They do just as bad of a job performing his material as he does coming up with it.

    Although I also feel like the bombastic nature of their FD is meant to distract from the fact that they haven't made any improvements. People are so focused on the gun shots that fewer people are talking about the fact that there aren't any transitions and that they don't keep the performance level up by the halfway point of the program.
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2012
  21. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    I figured Artur's resident hater would turn up.

    How about putting yourself under the level of pressure Artur is under (to be the "next Plushenko" - from both himself and the federation...to lead Russian men's skating in Plushenko's place...to redeem his Worlds performance...and so on) and let me know how you get on.
  22. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    :rolleyes:

    Oh yes, Euros. That was so long ago! Years and years and years and years...oh wait. Sorry, it was only two competitions ago.
  23. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    I finally got around to watching it, and I think it might be better if Morozov just sticks with his usual CD in the future.
  24. robinhood

    robinhood Active Member

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    Does anyone know what are the dialogues in I/K program? Is it the part of the film by Demi Moore?
  25. MarieM

    MarieM Well-Known Member

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    The problem isn't the music.
    The problem is everything else : the composition, the elements, the non existent transition, even the skating that hasn't shown as much progress as Bobrova/Soloviev. Even with music everyone can forget, last year's program wasn't as bad as was told. At least the elements (steps, spins, composition of the elements and transitions) were very neatly put together.
    But what we've seen so far is a badly put together program. Even the lifts haven't progressed one bit and it's not Zhulin's fault anymore, so whose fault is it ?
  26. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    CoP? :rofl: ITA with everything you said.

    Even "better": it's from the new musical version of Ghost that was on Broadway.

    Good point. While it is early in the season and I expect their conditioning to improve to a degree, their late starts are becoming a problem. I'm happy they at least did a tune up event which they didn't the past two years, but it was scheduled very late. By the time they were debuting their programs, B&S for example were skating in their 3rd international and locking up their spot in the GP Final (and I believe they did internal Russian competitions and test skates as well). It's always this way, I&K start out slowly, and then by Euros they have decent skates, but never really great ones. There is hardly time to make changes between Crystal Skate and CoR, so what is really the point? And the way they withdrew from Cup of Nice, and switched to Crystal Skate where they got ridiculous scores seems fishy somehow... like Morozov had a friend on the panel or something. And both of those choices are really low-level events where they wouldn't face any competition, compared to events like Nebelhorn and Finlandia. I just feel like they aren't challenging themselves whatsoever and if Morozov is saying they need to be fighting for the podium at Worlds, this is not good strategy.

    The idea of them with Krylova is interesting. As we've discussed before IMO they need a coach who is a strong disciplinarian. She's still pretty young, and her top teams have been P&B and W&P who are mature, hard-working, and I think realize how lucky they are to get the opportunity to work with her. I don't know how she would deal with I&K.
  27. Evilynn

    Evilynn ((Swedish skating dudes))

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    I assume it's from the musical, since that's the music they're using?
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  28. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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    :confused: Im not a hater just being realistic

    and Gachinski being beaten by the likes of a Voronov and Menshov :blah:
    I doubt he is that pressured to be the " Next Plushenko ", the younger juniors are more promising

    I bet Kovtun or even the younger kids like Petrov and Samarin will do better and Gachinski will be dumped once these 3
    turn seniors for 2018
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  29. morqet

    morqet Active Member

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    I agree with you about their consistantly slow starts being concerning, but the comparision with B/S doing early GPs and skating at Finlandia is a little unfair, firstly because skaters are limited in how much say they get to have over which GPs they are assigned, and secondly there would have been little point in them entering Finlandia, Nebelhorn or the internal Russian competitions this year as Elena was still recovering from her shoulder injury. I believe she was only able to start fully training again in the last month. We will only be able to see if they really are off to another poor start after this weekend.
  30. Glacier cat

    Glacier cat New Member

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    Only 2 competitions ago, and even now he isn't getting back in his real strength yet. I hope he will stand on the podium at CoR or NRW. He needs to win for recovering fully. I mean, mentally.
  31. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    You're right - I was probably being a bit harsh.
  32. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    The pressure obviously is a lot, but I do think a sports psychologist could maybe help him. It's not like he's lost his jumps, he can still do the quads and 3a easily, it's just that, he has to keep the rest of the performance together, otherwise he won't score well and will not earn the PCS he deserves when he's skating with conviction. He landed 2 quads in his SC FS and still ended up 9th...clearly, it isn't just about the jumps. Idk what was going on with his 3a being so wonky there, usually it's his money jump, so let's hope those issues are a temporary fluke, but he can't just give away points with careless mistakes and uninspired skating like that. He seemed depressed or really discouraged, he is a good skater, he knows the judges won't hesitate to give him good scores when he skates well, he's still a teenager and has already medaled at Worlds and Europeans, seems to me he just needs a push or influx of motivation of some sort to get his spark back. It's still early, and maybe with the mega scores being earned by the likes of Hanyu and Fernandez (both around his age) recently, how Patrick Chan continues to score well for terrible performances (like at SC - I'm sorry but that FS was a mess), Plushenko and others like Lysacek making comebacks, and Kovtun tearing up the JGP and gaining lots of attention as the next star, he just feels kind of lost in the shuffle and like the odds are against him.
  33. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    Takahashi's free skate at Cup of China was an even bigger mess than Chan's at Skate Canada, up to Takahashi looking labored and quite overpowered by the music but he still scored pretty high on the components and I have this feeling he will continue to score high, mistakes or no mistakes.

    What I think that affected Artur's PCS at SC apart from the missed jumps and his slowness was that he skated on two feet for most of his long program, as well as the obvious - to me - lack of valuable transitions.

    I see more modern skating in Kovtun than Artur these days. I am not an Artur hater and I had high hopes for him this season with new choreographies.
  34. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    For most of the preseason gachinski had 3a but not quad and he goes to Canada and basically no 3a but quad. Sports psychologist is an obvious investment that should be made. Worlds 2011 was despite low pcs and all jumps so he knows no mistake is possible ever on a jump for success internationally.
  35. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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  36. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Hasn't this always been the case for him though? His skating is very Russian - just focused on the jumps and some on showmanship, but he never does much with his blades or with the music. I would hate to be labelled as a hater but I truly do not see what is so good about his sakting that got him the high PCS to medal at Euros and Worlds. Would someone please enlighten me?
  37. Kasey

    Kasey Loving on babies!

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    Other skaters sucked out loud?? Nothing really special about him that I can see, other than his ability to elicit, uhm, STRONG reactions by certain "fans" when anything remotely critical is posted about him? (Hmm, that would actually put him on par with Weir, Virtue/Moir, Davis/White, etc....maybe he IS better than I thought ;) )
  38. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    OMG, Martiusheva and Rogonov!!! Two freaky falls that could have been avoided. What is going on with them? :eek: I really like this pair, but the competition just a few days ago shows that they skate worse than ever! (Usually she struggles with jumps. Here she doubled, but lands throw jump. But the fall on nothing and another one on death spiral!)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCyKL0OzzII&feature=plcp
  39. Jeschke

    Jeschke Well-Known Member

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    Worse than ever? Please come on. there were times in the past few years, where she hits the ice almost at every jump (even a double and most of the throws)
    the throw was cleanly landed.
    her double sal, okay, we have seen that many times, you´re right

    but the mistake at the beginning and the death spiral? come on, such mistakes happens to you once or twice during your career and now it happend to them. remember savchenko/szolkowy with their olympic program at teb 2009? few weeks later they bounced back.

    i agree that a skate lake that don´t give too much confidence for rostelecom cup, but let´s wait and judge until then. now it´s time for them to prove on the big stage.
  40. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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    this was at Cup of Russia III I think a week ago ? , they placed 2nd, I posted it above
    I hope those freak falls wont happen especially that fluke on the death spiral
    landing of throws looked improved
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