Frank Carroll: The Skate Whisperer

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Yazmeen, Feb 23, 2014.

  1. redfiretrees

    redfiretrees Figure Skating Fan in the Tropics

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    Sorry if my post was confusing. No, I was not trying to be sarcastic. Yes, I am aware that 3z/3t is one of the hardest combination but I remember reading somewhere here or in another forum that Polina has the highest tech content of all the American Ladies (Is this true?) And with that I thought that there is still room to increase her tech content. Apologies, I'm not as knowledgeable with these things as most of you are since I'm a new figure skating fan.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2014
  2. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    IA.

    But, there are smaller ways that others might slip ahead of GG, though, by maximizing base value w/o a 3x: (1) more backloading, (2) repeating the 3z and 3f (ex - Polina accomplishes this by executing a 3f- loop - 3s seq. and having correct edges - at least I think she has correct edges). Correct edges will help allow a 3z-3t combo and 3f solo jump in the SP (3) 'Tano or Rippon Lutzes.

    GG has played w/ no. 2 and 3 and it might serve her well going forward. Someone in another skating thread mentioned GG is trying to fix her edge going into the 3f, and that is what is leading to the difficulties w/ the jump right now. I haven't analyzed whether that is what she is doing or not, or if she continues to get an edge call. The Olympic protocols were hard for me to read.

    But, sooner or later, some wunderkind will have a good 3x or, who knows, even a 4t or 4s. It's just a matter of time. That is progress in any sport. Who knows if that will happen in the next Olympic cycle, though
     
  3. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    Thanks. I wasn't trying to single anyone out but responding to a general feeling made by several posters that GG had to up her techh or be doomed.

    It's been 25 years since surya's 2ft 4t. Crazy, right?! And an entire decade since miki's ratified junior 4s. I just dont see a quad explosion coming during Gracie 's time/prime.

    Even the 3x can be boiled down to midori and Mao: consistent over time, but not rock solid. Even harding's 3x, while beautiful, only lasted a year. I still don't get how Kimmie even got hers ratified, but....
     
  4. floskate

    floskate Vacant

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    Are here any videos of these GG practice triple axels? I saw one in a harness on youtube a few years ago now. I think if she can then she should, but I just don't see it with her current double axel. And as we know, Frank is no risk taker.
     
  5. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I don't think Gold has anything to worry about as far as strategizing and maximizing Gracie's technical scoring potential under COP. I mean look at what Frank did for Evan Lysaceck in 2009 and 2010.
     
  6. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    or Kwan in 2000, 2001, or bowman in 1989, 1990 etc...

    But I do get a chuckle out of the coach of Fratianne and Goeble being dissed as not pushing the harder jumps
     
  7. floskate

    floskate Vacant

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    :lol: in terms of Goebel there wasn't an awful lot else to push :shuffle: Fratianne had the rep for the triples because she was very consistent with them, but really her tech content was standard for top flight ladies in that quad and her biggest rivals pretty much had two or more triples planned. They just weren't as consistent. Plus she skated in the figures era. She needed those jumps to try and catch up after figures.
     
  8. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    That's an interesting take on the 70s. Nobody had anything even close to consistent triples before Linda and Annette IMO. Plenty boated of 3ts but rarely could they pull them off. And same afterward, which is why Annette and Linda were the only ones actually winning anything for 4 straight years. Denise didn't pull off that 3z until after and people like sagmar may pull off the odd 3r but they were not consistent. There were skaters in the final flight in lp that didn't have any planned triples, so 2 almost sure bet triples was 'standard' in my book.
     
  9. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    Frank should've pushed Linda to put her triples later in her LP. I think she could've also done 3 triples instead of 2 and included a 3-2 combo in the long. It was too bad that Linda's direct threat from 77-80 wasn't the better free skaters like Denise and Wantanabi. They would've forced Frank to evolve Linda to be a better skater.
     
  10. floskate

    floskate Vacant

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    :lol: Nice try! If you bother to re-read my post you will see that I didn't reference the 70's as a whole, just that particular quad 1977 - 1980. I noted that Linda's biggest rivals among the top flight ladies were attempting similar content; not the top flight as a whole, which is true and I also acknowledged that Linda was the most consistent. FYI Biellmann first tried the triple lutz at 1976 Worlds and Dagmar Lurz was landing triple loops as early as 1975 and certainly landed it at 1978 Europeans & Worlds, 1979 Europeans, and 1980 Europeans, Olympics & Worlds. That's hardly the odd 3r is it?
     
  11. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    GG's axel looks kind of whippy lately. It doesn't climb in the air right now which I think would be necessary to add another rotation. But, I do remember those 3x's w/ a harness. IIRC, they were nicely landed.
     
  12. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

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    Too bad there is that mandatory deduction for the harness. :lol:
     
  13. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    :confused: nice try at what?
     
  14. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    FC called Linda his 'best student' in his TSL interview months ago. But, I think FC followed a tact w/ Linda he also used later w/ MK and even EL by 2010: Don't push the tech envelope too much because (1) it may carry a greater risk of injury, and (2) your chief rivals' weaknesses and/or inconsistencies mean you can probably win without pushing it. But, as we saw, it was a crap shoot; worked for EL but not for MK or Linda.

    FTR, I agree w/ any coach pushing their skater regardless of what their chief rival can do. Not all out, but if you get to point A, why not try a little bit for point B?
     
  15. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Mmm ... you should not categorically rule this out. Frank had Mirai pull out her 3A during practices at Nationals before they parted ways, and the only prior footage of her doing that was with Charlene Wong.

    I remember Frank saying that his philosophy with female skaters is that you expose them to as much technical content between 10-15 years old as possible, then pray they hold on to it. Since Gracie has so much spring in her legs and she has such a straight air position, and can't see why they wouldn't at least train it. They might have picked up a thing or two watch Mao perform them.
     
  16. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    Gracie has good spring on her toe jumps, not necessarily her edge jumps. I think the axel is an iffy jump for her. Gracie and Frank and can up their technical content by doing a 3-3 or a 3-3 sequence in the second half of the LP.
     
  17. NadineWhite

    NadineWhite Well-Known Member

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    I like this discussion about spring and jumps, it brings to mind what was said about Sasha Cohen, that she had "quick twinge/tinge?" reflexes, which allowed her to get so many revolutions in despite not jumping that high. I found that fascinating, especially when I looked at her quad in practice before Skate America that one year. It was actually *overrotated* of all things! :eek:

    It makes me think of how lucky a skater would be to not only have "quick twinge/tinge?" reflexes, but also huge spring in their jumps! :wideeyes: The ultimate skater, in fact. :cool:
     
  18. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    This!

    Although I do think it was working for both Linda and Michelle as well. It won Linda two world titles and almost won her the olys had the figures scoring been just a little different. It also won Michelle '00 and '01 worlds despite all the hype against her. I think what really did her in in both oly LPs was nerves. Both France and Canada were all out performance wise, while Nagano and slc were both very tight. Although in that TSL interview, frank seems to blame both loses on her not following his instructions (going to SC and getting injured so no 3/3 in Nagano, and going sans coach to slc and losing the flip.)
     
  19. FunnyBut

    FunnyBut Well-Known Member

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    Polina is performing 3s-.5loop-3f a tough sequence that the other top US ladies did not attempt this season, and I think that should be considered raising the technical bar. Some of the junior Russians are doing this too. Gold played with this combo a few times last season, I certainly don't think it is out of reach for her. I think her strategy this season was to get clean and consistent and polished. That meant taking out this combo, some difficult entrances into other jumps, and the Rippon lutz. It was a smart strategy that served her well.

    Gold has some of the best qualities among all the competing ladies, her jumps have speed, rotation, height and good technique. She is also blessed with an ideal adult build for skating and jumping, and of course she has a great coach. I really think she has such a promising future. I wouldn't waste her efforts on the 3A, the risk is not worth the reward, Mao Asada's career has illustrated that entirely too much. As younger skaters raise the ante, better for her to bring back the 3-3 sequence, fix the lip, backload her programs.
     
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  20. redfiretrees

    redfiretrees Figure Skating Fan in the Tropics

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    Thanks for explaining Polina's tougher sequence. Yes, it would be really great if she could "up the ante" a bit as you've mentioned. It would be really great also if she can finally fix her flip.