Frank Carroll: The Skate Whisperer

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Yazmeen, Feb 23, 2014.

  1. marialynn

    marialynn New Member

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    yes it was-I never liked frank's style of coaching- especially the women skaters-he stresses on the artistic and never ever on the more difficult jumps-in the 90's i guess this was ok but not in today's skating world- please retire frank
     
  2. danceronice

    danceronice Corgi Wrangler

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    Eh...some personalities can't be helped, and not every coach is good for every learner. (Heck, today I had job coach training for work and one thing they said was if the new hire and you are just not meshing and they aren't learning the way they need to, it is NOT a failure of you as a job coach to go to your supervisor and suggest bringing in another trainer. Some people's learning and teaching styles don't click.) I'm not really sure ANYONE could have helped Bowman in the long term, for example.
     
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  3. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    and this revisionist history is based on? Frattianne was one of the few to do triples in the 70s. In the 90s he had Kwan, who with 7 triples, a 3/3, and 2 3z in an LP was at the top of the sport tech wise. She was training the 3x and other 3/3s but couldn't do them. 98 she was injured and after 98 he was the one always pushing her to not rest on her laurels. As soon as she dumped him she tried one of her uncertain 3z/3r, failed, lost to her two biggest rivals and set the stage for possible defeat in slc.
     
  4. jenniferlyon

    jenniferlyon Well-Known Member

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    Gracie has certainly thrived since she went with Frank. There's an example of a good fit. But no, not every coach can work well with every skater. And even if the coach and skater click, there are always the parents...
     
  5. NadineWhite

    NadineWhite Well-Known Member

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    I respect Frank, but I don't really care for him, he just seems shady, lol. :D Now Mr. Nicks I like a lot! Anyhow, to this day I think Michelle would have won the 2002 Olympic Title if she had stayed with Frank Carroll. Today I still think it was an idiotic decision to leave him right before the Olympics! :eek: But then again none of us knew what went on behind the scenes nor does it seem we will ever b/c Michelle will never tell nor Frank, though I did hear whispers of $$$ playing a role...

    Regards GG, I do applaud Frank for making her more consistent, but in the process he seems to have taken away what made her so very special in the first place ~ her HUMONGOUS jumps, which used to be on par with the greatest in the world (Slutskaya, Sotnikova, Sebestyen, et al). I think he's trying to make her into Carolina Kostner, who for the last few years reined in her speed and the size of her jumps and in the process made her a World Champion and an Olympic Medalist. In other words a safe skater, but 99% of the time safe skaters don't win the Olympics. jmho.

    ***note: personally I think this may have also been one of the reasons why Michelle left Frank right before the 2002 Olympics b/c she wanted to go for more difficulty, hence the first time her trying the 3Z/3R in competition at SC, whereas Frank wanted her to play it safe again just like in 1998. Yeah, I know she had the toe injury but I think if she had tried the 3T/3T combo. she was so consistent with she would've won the 1998 Olympic Title. Once again, jmho. Nonetheless, something GG should consider as well in the future. With Frank she will never even attempt the 3A.***
     
  6. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

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    Comments like this drive me crazy! How can you compare two skater's drive when you don't know their circumstances? Wasn't Mirai's mother sick with cancer, and didn't Mirai have to work in the family business? Correct me if I'm wrong.
     
  7. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    I don't think there is any consistency to winning in skating. Pairs in slc, Torino, Vancouver and Sochi certainly didn't provide wins for skating all out with dubious tricks you really can't land solidly under the spotlights. I also think skating all out is one reason why Todd has no Olympic medal, and is skating all out why Alexiei won slc, or why plushy lost? Did chan hold back and skate safe in Sochi? It didn't look like it to me.

    As for Kwan and carol, I'm not convince frank's rule of only attempting jumps you can actually land regularly is wrong. Kwan's slc LP was one of her safer ones. Didn't Raphael later let the cat out of the bag that she went into slc nursing a serious hip injury she kept quiet? A hip injury from training 3z/3r that were beyond her perhaps? Isn't this about when she started scaling back to 6 triple lps for the first time?
     
  8. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    I really don't see Frank coaching any of the above, except perhaps Max Aaron. Skaters seek him out and I suspect Frank won't take on another male skater unless he or she is the next big one. Not that I'm saying Max is the next one for sure either.
     
  9. canbelto

    canbelto Well-Known Member

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    Maybe I'm not explaining myself well enough. I'm not saying Frank Carroll isn't a great coach for many skaters. There was a long interview with The Skating Lesson here:

    http://www.theskatinglesson.com/frank-carroll-interview-part-1/

    http://www.theskatinglesson.com/frank-carroll-interview-part-2/

    He really goes into detail about his methods. But the "Carroll Method" is really sort of a clinic, designed to build stamina, consistency, and mastery of existing skills. He doesn't consider it his job to help the "headcases" with their various hangups. I guess he did it once with Christopher Bowman and will never go through that again.

    Whatever happened with Michelle Kwan, I think both have said later that it was around 2001/2002 that MK started being a little more "difficult." She was earning a lot of money, she was a huge star, and there were enormous expectations for her to win the gold in SLC. But I do think a coach not so set in his ways about the right method might have been more flexible, and they could have worked out some technical kinks. But Carroll admits that he hunkered down and became even more strict and rigid because that's his way. And we all know what happened.

    Also, while Carroll success stories are remarkable for their consistency, I also think that the relentless emphasis on consistency, and complete run-throughs of programs, comes a little at the expense of performing excitement and spontaneity.
     
  10. Maximillian

    Maximillian You can't unfry things.

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    As someone else said, I have a suspicion that Frank will only give high-profile full commitment to skaters who have the physical tools to be great, which is why I think he wouldn't have taken any of the American men listed above or Wagner, regardless of the circumstances. None of those skaters had the potential to be world beaters and I think if he's going to be taking on a skater who is going to require a lot of time, publicity and travel, he probably isn't going to do it for a skater whose best hope is 5-7 at Worlds. He doesn't need that at this point in his career. I think that's why he has a couple of mis-fires in his resume (Nagasu, Bowman, Chin) because the one thing all three have in common is that at one point in their career everyone thought they were going to dominate.
     
  11. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    Well, he took on Jenny who was a bit of a head case and best scenario 5-7 at worlds skater, so who knows, maybe he really wanted to redo his kitchen or something.
     
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  12. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    Among the four men mentiined Abbott doesnt play musical coaches, and Adam already has a tech coach. Miner also needs a tech coach to retool his jumps. Dornbush has college. So who can Frank coach?
     
  13. canbelto

    canbelto Well-Known Member

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    I think Frank has a good fit with Gracie Gold and Denis Ten. Gold has the technical chops, Ten has the work ethic.
     
  14. marialynn

    marialynn New Member

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    frank is simply a "safe" skating coach- he seems to have no conception of what a skater needs to do technically-he is stuck in the 90's when safe skating could get you a medal= not any more frank
     
  15. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    Yes, his coaching style certainly destroyed Evan Lysacek's potential in 2010 :rolleyes:
     
  16. ros01

    ros01 New Member

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    Interesting article. I wonder if Frank will keep taking elite skaters and for how long. He has done some great skating. I see people's point that he is not a technical envelope pusher, but OTOH he has really maximized some people's potential.
     
  17. marialynn

    marialynn New Member

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    evan could not compete today unless he could suddenly do a few quads lol
     
  18. Mayra

    Mayra Well-Known Member

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    Because the men's event at the Olympics was so amazing that Evan's performances in 2010 would not have compared? :rofl: Beyond which, Frank coached Denis to a 2013 World silver medal and a 2014 Olympic bronze.

    I don't believe there is such a thing as a once size fits all coach. Different personalities mesh better with others and teaching/learning methods vary. Frank's methods may work for one and not have any effect on another. That's not a knock on the skater or the coach, that's just the way it works. At the end of the day he's had enough success as a coach(and how!) that his legacy speaks for itself. :respec:
     
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  19. marialynn

    marialynn New Member

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    yeah a legacy of teaching safe skating- it's so different now
     
  20. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    If it's so different, why did Denis Ten just get a bronze medal at the Olympics?
     
  21. Sparks

    Sparks Well-Known Member

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    ...and Gracie placed 4th.
     
  22. eurodance2001

    eurodance2001 Active Member

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    Is marialynn the new caseyedwards?? Lol..
     
  23. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I thought they were the same person. One a little more extreme than the otherÂ…an account created to not kill the "credibility" that the poster's first incarnate may have had.
     
  24. skatfan

    skatfan Well-Known Member

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    Seems like him, doesn't it?

    Seriously, I can't think of another US coach at the moment who can mold a skater to perform at the level he does. Gracie Gold definitely had emotional issues with competing, and look what he pulled off in 4-5 months. She's gunning for a medal next month at Worlds!
     
  25. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    And why would we want Gracie to start trying to do 3axels? Besides the fact that she has trouble at times landing her 2axel do we want her to become like Mao and become obsessed with it? Mao needed the 3axel since she struggles with the other triples and can't do the harder 3-3 combo's like the other girls but Gracie has better jumps all around then Mao and doesn't need the 3axel right now. If she starts working on it and can land it consistently then maybe i can see it in the future.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2014
  26. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    :lol: well, isn't it outrageous that Gracie won nats without doing a quad! :soapbox:
     
  27. NYScorp6

    NYScorp6 Member

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    Thanks for sharing the link, I enjoyed the article.
    Full disclosure: I'm not a big Frank Carroll "fan", that being said I am impressed with the progress Gracie has made since making the move to train with Frank in in CA. It seems to me she is now very clearly the leading US lady both with the USFSA and the ISU. Now lets hope she can keep the momentum going forward.

    Christopher Bowman proved too much for Frank to handle, perhaps too much for anyone to handle including himself. Addiction is such a horrible disease, one which very few can cope with for any sustained period. It tears at your soul and those who love you forever. RIP Chris.
     
  28. eurodance2001

    eurodance2001 Active Member

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    HA HA HA... OMG.. the travesty!!
     
  29. attyfan

    attyfan Well-Known Member

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    Tim Goebel's 3 quads qualifies as "safe skating"?
     
  30. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    IDK, he seemed to imply that he did take on a mother "head case" after bowman: goeble.

    The Kwan segment was weird. Although he took great pains to say complimentary things about the whole Kwan family, he did lay out a lengthy timeline where pretty much everything that went wrong in her career was Danny's fault. There was nothing we hadn't heard before thru gossip, but it was a bit shocking to hear an insider pretty much blame him for everything, while smoothly sounding understanding or impartial. He's slick.