Frank Carroll: The Skate Whisperer

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Yazmeen, Feb 23, 2014.

  1. Yazmeen

    Yazmeen Well-Known Member

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    Doggygirl and (deleted member) like this.
  2. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    I wish someone would do a more extensive article on frank. Reading this I wanted more info on Jenny, Carolina, surya, d10, etc...

    I was a little surprised by Jenny's interview with manleywoman. Here is someone struggling with personal problems, yet iirc she only had nice things to say about the "I'm not your father!" Frank and "I'm a hockey coach bully" Evy, but totally threw "I'll manage every aspect of your life" Callaghan under the bus as a sham.
  3. my little pony

    my little pony snarking for AZE

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    i'd like to hear more about that colonel tom parker deal he had with tim goebel and other skaters that tim mentioned on TSL. frank will get up in your life when it is time to get paid.
  4. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    I think that his explanation of the difference between a "teacher" and a "coach" is important; and telling.

    FC expects those he coaches to be responsible for their own actions and behavior,
    It's refreshing,
  5. Sparks

    Sparks Well-Known Member

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    While that was interesting, yet not surprising, I think Tim was being less than honest in that interview about why Frank fired him.
    Not that he had to reveal anything, mind you.
    There must be something about special about Frank if Kwan, Kirk, and others still have so much respect for him.
  6. canbelto

    canbelto Well-Known Member

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    Seems Frank's technique is great when you have skaters who are naturally driven and hard-working. But I do think the mark of a successful coach is being able to work with different, even difficult personalities and also get them to where they need to be.
  7. Wyliefan

    Wyliefan Well-Known Member

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    Good interview!
  8. alilou

    alilou Crazy Stalker Lady

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    Very good interview. I wish Patrick had gone to Frank. With the right mindset he would probably be OGM by now. Chan had too many people messing with his head, plus he wanted it too much. I think Frank would have set him straight - no time for all that nonsense. Just train and do your job.
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  9. Kabooke

    Kabooke New Member

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    I disagree. These coaches are no different than everyday people. Certain types gravitate toward and work best with certain types of personalities. It is rare that you have types that can work well and bring out the best in all types. The mark of a "successful" coach depends on what you define as "successful". A coach can only do so much. The other part depends on the skater. If a skater comes to a coach like Frank, know what he expects, and bucks his system then it is not on him but the skater. Let's not forget, the skaters/parents seek out these coaches.
  10. ekatsk8

    ekatsk8 New Member

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    Some skaters have problems (either their parents, or their own problems) that require help other than what a coach can give them. It's true that if he says, "I don't want whining, I want training," it may be hard on a skater. But the reality is if they do otherwise they won't succeed. He is also wise not to engage emotionally. The most successful people (in any field) also practice this principle. I understand him booting people from his training, esp those who display hostile behavior towards him. He is a top notch coach and if a student wastes time they are taking away an opportunity for another hardworking athlete to reach their potential. But, there are so many coaches out there, so hopefully everyone can find what they are looking for.
  11. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Port de bras!!!

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    Oooooh, zing! Wasn't it the 3F that brought Kwan down at SLC?
  12. canbelto

    canbelto Well-Known Member

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    Yup it was a triple flip that had been wonky in the short that killed Michelle in the long.
  13. Sparks

    Sparks Well-Known Member

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    As Frank once said to Mirai, "nobody died".

    At Frank's age he can pick and chose who he takes as a student. There is a reason he turned down Ashley.
  14. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Port de bras!!!

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    I didn't realize Ashley wanted to be coached by Frank, when was this?
  15. Sparks

    Sparks Well-Known Member

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    After she left Priscilla, she went around the country shopping for coaches. :sekret:
  16. Carolla5501

    Carolla5501 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it would have worked. Frank wants you to do what he says during lessons etc. Chan wants to run his own show Not a match made in heaven!

    I doubt he's a saint, but as far as the Parker dealing.. he's probably less guilty of that mess then the USFSA as a whole. The "tone at the top" was "do what Parker" wants....
  17. Twizzler

    Twizzler Well-Known Member

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    It is refreshing and the way it should be, but I challenge you to find a parent who is willing to accept this. Most parents nowadays expect the coach to do everything, be everything, and get personally involved. It's sad.

    By allowing the coach to teach responsibility and independence, which Frank seems to do, the coach is ultimately developing a stronger competitor.
  18. ekatsk8

    ekatsk8 New Member

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    Bingo. I forgot if I mentioned this last post, but I teach in an artistic field. Nowadays the parents I work with more often expect "results" and that "the teacher is responsible" for producing those results; neither they nor their child should have to put in a lick of work or follow the teacher's advice. And they expect the teacher to yell at/parent their child. Those students are not going to be able to function in the world when they grow up. Those parents also (in my experience) ruin the reputation of whomever they are studying with. So FC is definitely making the right call to nip things like that in the bud.

    Coaches/teachers are powerless to change the way a child is brought up by their parents. The results can only be produced when the right conditions have been set at home (the child understands work ethic and personal responsibility), and the student is in the right place, physically and mentally, to work hard and be receptive to what their coach is saying. Just my 2c from dealing with this.

    Anyway with FC, reading this article, I found that he says the same thing as the top teachers/artists in my field.
  19. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Shame too. Her triple Flips at Nats the month before and at Worlds the month later were pretty nice. She had an unusual psych block on the Flip in SLC.

    I guess it happens. Irina had trouble with her second flip in the Torino LP and her usual money jump, the loop, failed her.
  20. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    He seemed to make a lot of accusations about frank that jenny didn't lift a finger to support, yet she had no trouble chiming right in on the dick-bashing rant. Despite the name calling, I think Tim got off easy as he didn't really get anywhere in skating after frank. I can't believe the kwans continued to pay frank a cut all those years she made mad cash after she left him, as the haters insisted that greed is what drove her to fire him.
  21. lahaa968

    lahaa968 Active Member

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    Actually, it was at the end of the 2012-2013 season, when John Nicks told her he didn't wish to travel with her anymore. Ashley contacted Frank, who was busy with Evan, so he declined...as the summer went on, and with Evan's injury keeping him off the ice, he had a small window to be filled, and behold Gracie became his new pupil.
  22. attyfan

    attyfan Well-Known Member

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    IIRC, Kurt Browning also had trouble with his flip in the SP in '94. The flip clearly is an eville jump.
  23. DreamSkates

    DreamSkates New Member

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    True, but difficult personalities may not have the goods to train the way they need to in order to be consistently successful.
  24. canbelto

    canbelto Well-Known Member

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    By difficult, I don't mean Christopher Bowman difficult. But more like skaters who aren't naturally driven and confident. For instance, Tamara Moskvina has been able to work with a variety of skaters considered difficult and inconsistent. Carroll's approach seems a bit too harsh for many skaters. That's the takeaway I get from this article.
  25. skatfan

    skatfan Well-Known Member

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    I think Frank can be pretty picky about who he takes on. He did turn down Ashley because at the time he had both Denis and Evan for the Olympics, and it was only their medical and visa issues that gave him extra time, and even then the USFSA had to broker a tryout for Gracie to work with Carroll. I'm sure that after Mirai, he doesnt need more headaches.
  26. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    If you go to Frank Carroll he expects you to do the work and leave the drama at home. With someone like Christopher Bowman that was impossible to do and no coach was going to be able to work with someone as messed up as Christopher. Mirai on the other hand i think was simply not as driven as someone like Gracie and probably had to be prodded to work hard at times.
  27. LilJen

    LilJen Well-Known Member

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    Ah--I was gonna say, when Ashley originally left Priscilla, Mirai was still with Frank, so why would he take on a direct competitor?

    One wonders what might have happened with US men if Evan hadn't been taking up (much of) Frank's time--all to no purpose in the end--for the last 4 years.
  28. Yazmeen

    Yazmeen Well-Known Member

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    There was definitely a purpose with Evan; you can't predict injury.
  29. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    yeah, I'm sure d10 was bitching about Evan being a time suck the whole podium ceremony. :rolleyes:

    Is there some story about Jason begging frank to tech him a quad I missed, or is this just another excuse to get in a cheap dig at an ogm?
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  30. LilJen

    LilJen Well-Known Member

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    No, I'm just saying that if Evan hadn't been a student of Frank's 2010-2014 he would have been free to take on another top American man. Which may have made a big difference for any of the top men this last quad--who knows? Abbott, Miner, Aaron, Dornbush? He had Jonathan Cassar, of course, but he never had the tech content of the top contenders.
  31. marialynn

    marialynn New Member

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    yes it was-I never liked frank's style of coaching- especially the women skaters-he stresses on the artistic and never ever on the more difficult jumps-in the 90's i guess this was ok but not in today's skating world- please retire frank
  32. danceronice

    danceronice Corgi Wrangler

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    Eh...some personalities can't be helped, and not every coach is good for every learner. (Heck, today I had job coach training for work and one thing they said was if the new hire and you are just not meshing and they aren't learning the way they need to, it is NOT a failure of you as a job coach to go to your supervisor and suggest bringing in another trainer. Some people's learning and teaching styles don't click.) I'm not really sure ANYONE could have helped Bowman in the long term, for example.
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  33. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    and this revisionist history is based on? Frattianne was one of the few to do triples in the 70s. In the 90s he had Kwan, who with 7 triples, a 3/3, and 2 3z in an LP was at the top of the sport tech wise. She was training the 3x and other 3/3s but couldn't do them. 98 she was injured and after 98 he was the one always pushing her to not rest on her laurels. As soon as she dumped him she tried one of her uncertain 3z/3r, failed, lost to her two biggest rivals and set the stage for possible defeat in slc.
  34. jenniferlyon

    jenniferlyon Well-Known Member

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    Gracie has certainly thrived since she went with Frank. There's an example of a good fit. But no, not every coach can work well with every skater. And even if the coach and skater click, there are always the parents...
  35. NadineWhite

    NadineWhite Well-Known Member

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    I respect Frank, but I don't really care for him, he just seems shady, lol. :D Now Mr. Nicks I like a lot! Anyhow, to this day I think Michelle would have won the 2002 Olympic Title if she had stayed with Frank Carroll. Today I still think it was an idiotic decision to leave him right before the Olympics! :eek: But then again none of us knew what went on behind the scenes nor does it seem we will ever b/c Michelle will never tell nor Frank, though I did hear whispers of $$$ playing a role...

    Regards GG, I do applaud Frank for making her more consistent, but in the process he seems to have taken away what made her so very special in the first place ~ her HUMONGOUS jumps, which used to be on par with the greatest in the world (Slutskaya, Sotnikova, Sebestyen, et al). I think he's trying to make her into Carolina Kostner, who for the last few years reined in her speed and the size of her jumps and in the process made her a World Champion and an Olympic Medalist. In other words a safe skater, but 99% of the time safe skaters don't win the Olympics. jmho.

    ***note: personally I think this may have also been one of the reasons why Michelle left Frank right before the 2002 Olympics b/c she wanted to go for more difficulty, hence the first time her trying the 3Z/3R in competition at SC, whereas Frank wanted her to play it safe again just like in 1998. Yeah, I know she had the toe injury but I think if she had tried the 3T/3T combo. she was so consistent with she would've won the 1998 Olympic Title. Once again, jmho. Nonetheless, something GG should consider as well in the future. With Frank she will never even attempt the 3A.***
  36. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

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    Comments like this drive me crazy! How can you compare two skater's drive when you don't know their circumstances? Wasn't Mirai's mother sick with cancer, and didn't Mirai have to work in the family business? Correct me if I'm wrong.
  37. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    I don't think there is any consistency to winning in skating. Pairs in slc, Torino, Vancouver and Sochi certainly didn't provide wins for skating all out with dubious tricks you really can't land solidly under the spotlights. I also think skating all out is one reason why Todd has no Olympic medal, and is skating all out why Alexiei won slc, or why plushy lost? Did chan hold back and skate safe in Sochi? It didn't look like it to me.

    As for Kwan and carol, I'm not convince frank's rule of only attempting jumps you can actually land regularly is wrong. Kwan's slc LP was one of her safer ones. Didn't Raphael later let the cat out of the bag that she went into slc nursing a serious hip injury she kept quiet? A hip injury from training 3z/3r that were beyond her perhaps? Isn't this about when she started scaling back to 6 triple lps for the first time?
  38. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    I really don't see Frank coaching any of the above, except perhaps Max Aaron. Skaters seek him out and I suspect Frank won't take on another male skater unless he or she is the next big one. Not that I'm saying Max is the next one for sure either.
  39. canbelto

    canbelto Well-Known Member

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    Maybe I'm not explaining myself well enough. I'm not saying Frank Carroll isn't a great coach for many skaters. There was a long interview with The Skating Lesson here:

    http://www.theskatinglesson.com/frank-carroll-interview-part-1/

    http://www.theskatinglesson.com/frank-carroll-interview-part-2/

    He really goes into detail about his methods. But the "Carroll Method" is really sort of a clinic, designed to build stamina, consistency, and mastery of existing skills. He doesn't consider it his job to help the "headcases" with their various hangups. I guess he did it once with Christopher Bowman and will never go through that again.

    Whatever happened with Michelle Kwan, I think both have said later that it was around 2001/2002 that MK started being a little more "difficult." She was earning a lot of money, she was a huge star, and there were enormous expectations for her to win the gold in SLC. But I do think a coach not so set in his ways about the right method might have been more flexible, and they could have worked out some technical kinks. But Carroll admits that he hunkered down and became even more strict and rigid because that's his way. And we all know what happened.

    Also, while Carroll success stories are remarkable for their consistency, I also think that the relentless emphasis on consistency, and complete run-throughs of programs, comes a little at the expense of performing excitement and spontaneity.
  40. Maximillian

    Maximillian Well-Known Member

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    As someone else said, I have a suspicion that Frank will only give high-profile full commitment to skaters who have the physical tools to be great, which is why I think he wouldn't have taken any of the American men listed above or Wagner, regardless of the circumstances. None of those skaters had the potential to be world beaters and I think if he's going to be taking on a skater who is going to require a lot of time, publicity and travel, he probably isn't going to do it for a skater whose best hope is 5-7 at Worlds. He doesn't need that at this point in his career. I think that's why he has a couple of mis-fires in his resume (Nagasu, Bowman, Chin) because the one thing all three have in common is that at one point in their career everyone thought they were going to dominate.