Frank Carroll concerned: crunch time for Evan

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Yazmeen, Sep 17, 2013.

  1. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    All IJS skater fans, unless your idol is Patrick Chan, who can do difficult tricks and land quad at the same time, other wise have no right to comment about those legendary skaters from 6.0. :lol: The purpose of the new system is seeking more challenge for the sport. When the jumps almost get to its limit, naturally they ask you to do more to make the sport more challenging, it's the natural development process, not because IJS skaters are better. :p
     
  2. itoaxel

    itoaxel Member

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    Who are always idiots. They are the same ones who implied Rakammo & Kokko deserved the 95 World title over Gritschuk & Platov, and that Kwan deserved the 95 World title over Lu Chen. So whatever they happened to say, the reverse was probably true. It almost always is.
     
  3. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I mean I think it's safe to say that Yagudin and Morosov brought footwork back in style despite how simple it used to be. Compare people's footwork sections before and after SLC.
     
  4. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    It's not just Yagudin and Morosov, it's more of a team work. That's Tarasova's idea,"now, all the skaters can do quads, let's increase the difficulty of our footwork", I never think Tarasova is a good coach, as a coach, she's worse than Kathy Johnson. But definitely an intelligent woman. You can see her idea is the same with the new system. And both Yagudin and Morosov's actual work. But they didn't get credit at first, at the beginning, the judges still rewarded the jumps a lot. That's after quite a while and they got credit for their work and program.
     
  5. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    But the rule applies to everyone. It's like, I think it's quite ironic that Chan's two failed triples at 2013 worlds got same points as a level 4 step sequence(I mean his step sequence, if it's someone else's, that's even more than), considering how people praise the new system focuses more on skating instead of jumps. But that rule applies to everyone not just Chan. Give higher marks than skaters actually do on ice is much worse because it can vary depends on people's reputation. The judge gave Plushenko 6 on transition actually gave him 9.5 on P/E and Interpretation. That's the ideal way to mark PCS imo. I am sick of those judges always give almost identical marks on each category of PCS. That makes the sport less interesting. Plushenko actually got the highest P/E and Interpretation that night(I cry for those who claimed that their skater had the best artistry in the universe).
     
  6. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    :lol: at using Dick Button as authority given how much crap keeps spewing out of his mouth.

    Three-turns and toe-steps aren't hard. On the contrary, they are the easiest turn and step there is in skating. Of course performing them at high speed and with a lot of attack can be really enjoyable to watch. But this is supposed to be a competitive sport and not light entertainment. Thank feck for IJS. :p

    (P.S. Yes, it's a pointless argument to be having. But as this thread is completely pointless and has been derailed long ago, why not. :D)
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2013
  7. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    Simple footwork can be very difficult depends on the speed, the way people execute it. The complex IJS footwork is more of a more rahter than more difficult considering how slow and jerky it is. That slowness totally even out its complexity. And not to mention those ridiculous features, if you do the arm flailing more, you get higher level while some arm flailings actually help with the balance. And how difficult it is if a 6.0 skater like Plushenko was among the first to get the level 4, almost all the skaters now can do level 3 or 4 no matter how bad their SS is. I bet the ISU still hasn't found a proper way to judge the footwork yet, that's why they are still keep adjusting the rule. And the point is skaters today are still doing the same jumps as 12 years ago, of course they should do more on other things, there's nothing to brag about. I don't consider it a huge development. If I only want to see good footworks, grab any ice dancer from senior group they can do better.
     
  8. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Footwork used to also be in an actual pattern, straight line, circular, and serpentine, which added difficulty precisely because of the restriction of the shape. Now meandering from one side of the rink to the other virtually using all the ice is considered straight line.
     
  9. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, the winner of

    - 2 Olympic Gold Medals
    - 5 World Championships
    - A European Championship
    - 7 National Championships

    probably does not have clue about skating :rolleyes: . . . and he did nothing for 50 years in terms of talking up the sport and the Winter Olympics, in general, so that there would be commercial sponsorship when the USA, the dominant economic power at the time, was not winning much.
     
  10. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    And not just Dick Button, there are lots of other experts, they are all craps. Ok, let's watch out how Ziggy's knowledge about figure skating. :lol: I am a curious person and like to study.
     
  11. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Only I have never said that Button does not have a clue about skating. I said that he is talking shit a lot of the time, which he is. He seems to be obsessed about certain issues whilst ignoring a lot of others. Which gives a very skewed image of skaters' performances. It's fine if you are equally nitpicky with everyone or equally lenient with everyone. But Button will nitpick certain things and completely gloss over others.

    No, not all of them. However, I am yet to find an English speaking commentator who is not talking shit a lot of the time (as in making mistakes, not knowing the rules and so on). If you find one, please let me know. :)

    I guess nowadays I either try to watch skating sans commentary or watch it in other languages so it's definitely possible there are great commentators out there that I have never listened to. ;) I guess PJ Kwong is probably one. You can tell that she really cares about skating and she definitely does her research. :)

    It always shocks me how Chris Howarth and Nicky Slater - both of whom work in skating as coaches and choreographers - often lack knowledge of the IJS rules and fail to notice a lot of errors that should be apparent to somebody who's a skating insider. They also don't seem to do much background research on skaters and seem to know less about them than many skating fans do.

    P.S. Not everybody will know everything, it's only natural. When you don't know about something simply don't mention it, instead of pretending that you do know it and talk bullshit...

    The Polish Eurosport commentator is actually very decent. He knows what he's talking about, he points out a lot of details and gives some interesting background info as well (he won't for example say 'fantastic' when a pair team does a triple twist where a lady collapses onto the man instead of being caught by the waist and put down - which Chris/Simon/Nicky do regularly). I disagree with him a lot but he's honest and makes clear arguments for why he thinks a certain way and you can take it or leave it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2013
  12. Eladola

    Eladola Active Member

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    You're missing my point,

    What i meant was, Had the double been performed,
    Those points could have easily gone missing somewhere else in the score, You see ?
     
  13. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    There is a difference between not noticing errors and not mentioning them. When they are working a broadcast, they are not there to be judges or teachers. They are there to make an entertaining broadcast. The vast majority of their audience does not want every program to be picked to death. They want to take it for what they see. People especially disliked broadcasters picking out small errors during the program, as it detracted from enjoyment of the performance.

    It's the same reason most US broadcasters gloss over the math details of scoring. They started out trying to explain everything, but figured out pretty early on that much of the audience finds too much talking about detail more annoying than helpful. So, they settled on mentioning levels and base values, deductions and the second half bonus, without going into the math or the detail.

    I suspect this is at least in part because skating is not just sport but also art. Too much focus on the one kills the other.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2013
  14. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    I like the british commentators, they love every skaters, unlike the NBC commentators, who are tooooooo biased, they never shut up and always criticize any non-Americans to make their Americans look better.
     
  15. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    Of course, if there is a British connection, they might not be so boldly positive of Russians (case and point: 1995 Worlds Ice dance - Sandra Bezic was actually more impartial than the Eurosport duo).
     
  16. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    That reminds me of the Russian broadcast of the 2002 SLC Pairs where Irina Rodnina was doing commentary. When Sale/Pelletier's scores came up and people saw that they were second, Rodnina cheered. Highly professional, right?
     
  17. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    I thought this long post was about your skating knowledge, actually it's a showoff of your knowledge about certain commentators. I thought you were trying to prove all those commentators were craps, it turned out it's just some times they talked shit about certain things.:lol: Together with your statement that saying Yagudin's footwork was all 3 turns and top picks, all totally rubbish.
     
  18. SmallFairy

    SmallFairy Well-Known Member

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    Commentators will always cheer for their own. Norwegian commentators are orgasming every time some Norwegian wins in skiing, they scream so loud they have no voice left and I fear they will have a heart attack.
    I agree it's not professional. Swedish commentator Roger Blomqvist in 2002 were gushing over S&P the whole pairs comp, since their coach was Swedish, he was so biased it was disgusting, B&S got no cred at all. No need to say I was furious, and equally happy when it said 2 next to S&P's names!
     
  19. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Member

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    I like Evan unlike many in this thread it seems but I really hope he pulls the plus on his comeback. He isnt competitive with the best in the World anymore even at his best, and he has had too many injuries and too long off to realistically try and return to amateur competition and doing quads and triple axels at this age. You know the saying nothing to lose and everything to gain. Well for Evan it is more a nothing to gain and everything to lose, including possibly his own long term physical well being.

    Whether some disagree with it or not he will always be an Olympic, World, and Grand Prix final Champion, and that is something nobody can take away from him.
     
  20. ciocio

    ciocio New Member

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    If Inman praised Yagudin's footwork, I'm ready to forgive him. :D
     
  21. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Member

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    I agree but wouldnt you say Plushenko did as well. Both had footwork far beyond the field, and very complex and musical, although totally different styles of footwork, almost equally effective.
     
  22. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    of course... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKEEuxPEP0U fantastic, very fast, exciting, fan to watch
     
  23. toddlj

    toddlj Well-Known Member

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    Okay, I'm giving up on this Evan thread which seems to have become a Plushy thread.
     
  24. Yazmeen

    Yazmeen Well-Known Member

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    I started this thread, will be more than happy to have an Admin put it out of its misery...
     
  25. dardar1126

    dardar1126 Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Sep 30, 2013
  26. B.Cooper

    B.Cooper Active Member

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  27. Sylvia

    Sylvia Bring on the JGP & Sr B comps!

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    Tweeted by @amyrosewater at the Olympic Media Summit in Park City, Utah:
    Tweeted by @KellyWhiteside:
     
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  28. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

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  29. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Why not cheer when a Russian pair wins the OGM? It's a very understandable reaction. Is she supposed to keep a blank face, or may be you would have preferred if she had screamed like Scott Hamilton and Sandra Bezic- how could S&P possibly lose? You don't like Rodnina's joy when a Russian pair wins (unprofessional according to you) and you see nothing wrong with Sandra whining because 'her' pair did not win.

    Sandra Bezic has been openly pro-Canadian in just about every competition she commented on.

    I have not listened to much of other countries' commentators, but I thought the Canadian commentators were biased too in the GPF 2002 SP. The European commentators were 'nice' but sometimes inaccurate (it's a small sample size, and I admit that I need to listen to more of those).

    Overall though I feel our US commentators may be the worst. There are mistakes in their commentaries, and sometimes endless gushing mostly about American skaters. Dick Button is one of the few that may say something negative about a US skater and something glowing about a Russian (how dare he?- sarcasm). The quality of FS commentating is just not good, and that could be a part of the reason majority of people (not fans) don't understand it.
     
  30. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    You may have a point. However, if there is a great commentator, I have not heard him/her. Many commentators have their strong points, but sometimes their weaknesses become overpowering.

    I am wondering if the famous skaters that become commentators later put less work into understanding the changes in the rules, etc. while those who were not that famous put more work into it? It's just a hypothesis, and I don't know if that's true. My personal preference is for commentators that explain specific moves - what was good about it, or not so good (or downright bad) and why. I like them to leave out unnecessary chatter, and unnecessary gushing. Simple praise is much more effective, IMO. That's just me though.

    I still have a soft spot for Dick & Peggy, and I have missed seeing them in recent years (Dick in particular).