Frank Carroll concerned: crunch time for Evan

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Yazmeen, Sep 17, 2013.

  1. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    I believe Sarah Hughes was the one to coin that phrase.
     
  2. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    I believe if Plushenko hadn't omitted the 3rd jump in his 3 jump combo, he would have won. So even if you believe all these conspiracies, he still controlled his own destiny. Just sayin'!
     
  3. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Ok, so I lied about having one last post on the subject. However, I couldn't let this one go.

    First, without a copy of the Yahoo sport poll to show us, it's hard to take your word for it since the neutrality of your arguments are a little suspect (like the Wikipedia article you cited).

    So, I quickly skimmed through the footnotes section, and I could not find any sources to indicate that German, Dutch, Swiss, Italian, Mexican, Chinese experts disagreed with Evan's victory or found his score to be out of the ordinary. The article only has quotes from a select few Russian media outlets. The only line that was somewhat close to indicating that was, "Plushenko's short program drew much praise from the International press which hailed him as the 'King' of figure skating who had returned . . ." which does not indicate at all that they thought Lysaceck's Short Program score was wrong. It only praised Plushenko's performance. However, even that quote is only supported by two articles. One a Japan Times article whose link no longer works, and an article from the New York Daily News. The NY Daily News article didn't say anything about Lysacek's score. It only talked about Plushenko being in first place after the short without any mention about it being wrong that the scores were so close.

    Anyway, even if you were cite to examples of international media saying Lysaceck's SP score was wrong, that would not mean that there was international consensus and outcry about it. It just means you found an example of someone from another country who strongly disagreed with the score. I am sure you could find others from those same countries who did not think anything was wrong with the scores.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2013
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  4. Eladola

    Eladola Active Member

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    That's as ridicules as saying that if there was no Sarah hughes, The judges would have still put Slutskaya over Kwan in SLC ;)
     
  5. SkateFan66

    SkateFan66 Active Member

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    Not ridiculous at all. Lysacek beat Plushenko by 1.31 points. The base value of the jump that Plushenko omitted from his Free Skate was worth more than 1.31 points. ;)
     
  6. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    GUSY so what about that Protopopovs comeback? I think they have a real chance of winning the PLATINUM medal in Sochi!!!
     
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  7. Yazmeen

    Yazmeen Well-Known Member

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    No, Tara said it before her, and many times, and got flack for saying it. I sometimes wonder if she felt she had to defend her title in the face of many who were devastated by Kwan's loss or didn't agree with the outcome. (For the record, I favored Michelle, but totally understand why Tara did win, it was one hell of a freeskate. The more I look at it now, the more I see how historic and joyous it really was).
     
  8. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    But if he fell on that last jump the whole combo would have been hit with -3 in goe. He didn't have to fall- Ur and downgrade or step out or turnout. There had to be a reason why he never did a 3 jump combo the whole season. Maybe he couldn't. After all in Vancouver he was the only one who did quad triples and triple axels and level 4 spins. Falling or uring a final jump in a three jump combo was a possibility. And then its still double loop means more than quad triple?
     
  9. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Even if you believe everything Lala says it's false or the interpretation is wrong than what about all the isu changes to men's skating requirements and point changes and rule changes? There was an obvious theme going on there. Elimination of step sequences and quads worth 10.3 and other things. All those changes were Irrelevent to Vancouver? The reaction to the winner? Eliminating 3 Olympics of progress?
     
  10. SkateFan66

    SkateFan66 Active Member

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    So Plushenko made the strategic decision to omit a double jump. No different than Lysacek making the strategic decision to omit the quad. In the end, Lysacek completed one more jump element than Plushenko and won by 1.31 points.
     
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  11. Yazmeen

    Yazmeen Well-Known Member

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    Still working on that time machine casey????? :EVILLE: Good grief, this will be another Nancy/Oksana, S and P/B and S saga, it will never go away.

    I still say Plushenko was vanquished by his and Mishin's own arrogance in thinking that a 2006 COP program would work in 2010. Maybe what COP was then was to the taste of some, but that's what it was. Evan played to the existing COP. Evgeny believed he had gold as long as he was clean, which he barely was (oh my, some of those jumps landings...) He was wrong.
     
  12. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    That may be because the ISU wanted to change direction and emphasize the Quad again since skating has had a lot more mileage under the Code and skaters grew up or learned to adapt to what the ISU wanted the skaters to focus on (footwork, transitions, spin positions, quality, etc.).

    However, that does not mean the ISU thought that Lysacek's win was in any way illegitimate. Remember that the ISU changed the rules after Torino as well. Does that mean Plushenko, Arakawa, Totmianina/Marinin, and Navka/Kostomorov's wins were illegitimate? No, of course not. About Vancouver, they also changed the value of the 3 Axel, changed the weight of GOEs, and limited the amount of double axels. Was that the ISU's way of saying Yu Na Kim's win was illegitimate? No. It just means that skaters succeeded under the scoring system, but the ISU felt it needed to be tweaked again to fix things that it didn't like. Not liking the way the scoring system is rewarding things is totally different from saying Lysacek was not a deserving winner.
     
  13. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    So do you think I'm lying? I'm angry!!! I love Plushenko, but I'm not lying because of him!!!! Never! Do you understand??? Never!!!
    What I wrote that is true! The wiki's page is interesting and I read it again some month ago, maybe it has changed, but I didn't say you will find the european articles of this matter. I have no time to find all the info what I read after Vancouver and during a few months .

    And you don't get me wrong, I admire Evan, he did his best that night, and Evan is the winner, what will never change. I just wanted to show another side of the story, what the American media never mentioned. Why?
    And that is shame on the American media, on the american experts, what they did with Plushy when he announced that he will return. They began a campaign against him. They perfectly knew he will be a real contender. And what happened before and after Vancouver was a brainwashing. Plushy became only a jumper, they forgot his results, his scores, his artistic side. But this is one of the realities: http://www.kingonice.com/evgeni6-0.htm
    I read many American comments on youtube, they didn't know about Plushy's career anything! All poster repeated totally false and similar things, probably what they read in american mainstream media.

    Read this page. Very interesting ! http://evgeni-plushenko.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=107&start=170#p11006

    I found only this http://evgeni-plushenko.com/forum/search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&keywords=yahoo&start=90 the voting on Yahoo

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/elise-crane/nbc-olympics-coverage-dra_b_467839.html read it! this is what I'm talking about..shame on American media...
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2013
  14. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    Is that just me? I saw such statement"becoming the first man since 1994 to win the Olympic title without doing a quadruple jump.", "Tied with Plushenko artistically (both scored 82.80 for program components)" from that page, I just had no more interest to read the article fully.
     
  15. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    Just like when people talked about 6.0 footwork, they like to take Yagudin as an example. They are the representative person, you should be proud of it. :hat1:
     
  16. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    ;) and again ;)
     
  17. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    I know you are not the person to understand what I was talking about. But thanks for your reply.
     
  18. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    I don't want to argue with you Unicorn..You hate Plush because you are a devoted fan of Yag.
     
  19. toddlj

    toddlj Livestreams at 1am on Thanksgiving weekend? OK!

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    Ummm... love you all... but this thread is about Evan Lysacek, and whether or not he will be skating this season.

    There is already a Plushy thread. Can we talk about Plushy there?
     
  20. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    You were scared, come on, You are a fighter, :lol::lol::lol:. I take it as there's something in my posts you don't like to see.:lol:
     
  21. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    so sorry, you are right
    You can't provoke me..:p
     
  22. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    Can't believe it didn't work, fine, let me try the other ways, oh, lala, I beg you, argue with me. LOL
     
  23. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    If plushenko doing quads meant that he was incapable of doing a 3 jump combo he should have totally duplicated what kinds of programs won the 2008 and 2009 worlds and done a 2010 cop program. Like there was a reason only 4 men did quads in the sp and no one else in the top 10 attempted a quad triple and barely any did quads at all. In order to win in 2010 plushenko should have had a lysacek program or chan or Oda or maybe a solo quad like takahashi or Abbott and had a 3/5 layout instead of the 5/3 layout. The problem was that was all leading to elimination of quads and quad combos from men's skating Which starting at the 1998 Olympics you had a winner with a solo quad attempt. I'd rather the loser program than the winner program. But if plushenko had been smart he wound have Not done any quads at all. But it's not about what plushenko should have done to win but what should be necessary for winning!
     
  24. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    He felt his double loop was made up by being the only man to do a quad triple in both sp and lp probably. He miscalculated the value of quads-none!
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2013
  25. SkateFan66

    SkateFan66 Active Member

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    The quad had value, in fact it had more base value than any other element. However, his quad jump was just ONE element in each program.
     
  26. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Yagudin footwork = three-turns and toe-steps. :scream:
     
  27. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    But it turned out to be not enough. He needed those post halfway point Bonuses and three jump combo so his program was all wrong in every way on jumps and needed to be modeled not on 2006 Olympics but 2008 or 2009 worlds models. He must have thought he Could eliminate the three jump combo for quad triples and it was equal. But he did 3 jump combo in 2006 but never in 2009 or 2010. And That has not been explained. So the issues with the scoring were on the program designers which overestimated the value of 5/3 layout with quad triple and no 3 jump combo.
     
  28. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    I am amused there are always silly people compare his footwork during an era when skaters failed on their jumps, they got zero points for their footwork unlike IJS skaters got credit for footwork no matter what. And IJS skater can get points for falls, when 6.0 skaters got zero credit for that.
     
  29. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    All of which has nothing to do with his footwork being extremely simple. :p
     
  30. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    I am sorry, not what Dick Button said about his footwork, "extremely difficult" comment about his 2002 lp circular sequence, and "I can't tell ya how difficult that footwork is" for the footwork in his racing sp. :lol: