Frank Carroll concerned: crunch time for Evan

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Yazmeen, Sep 17, 2013.

  1. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    I never argued for keeping one's program's secret until the last big event. I wondered if Lysacek would deliberately not compete before Nationals if he felt he wasn't at his best, as skaters such as V/M have spoken on the record about hiding any injury or pain so that the judges wouldn't look for the impact and mark them down. Whether it gave them a competitive advantage (or removed a disadvantage) isn't relevant: they thought it was and changed their behavior.
     
  2. ciocio

    ciocio Active Member

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    Plushenko said his programs will have more transitions than ever before, is Inman going to send an email about it before Sochi? Because I know he likes to quote Plushenko's interviews. ;) There are plenty of interviews translated on Plushenko's official page he could pass them to other judges. :D
     
  3. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    This! I think there have been a number of TOP skaters who have been very surprised to find they had an L2 spin they thought was a 4; or footwork that didn't meet the requirements, or an illegal lift or something. You need to have your program seen- I don't think just bringing in a judge is going to work the same.
     
  4. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    5.00 was way too generous. 3.00 would have been more appropriate for TR. Other PCS should have been much lower than they were as well given how slow he was, how little ice coverage he had, how basic his program construction was, etc. etc. etc.

    All in all, if you marked PCS based on what was actually performed on the ice - ignoring the technical elements and the skaters' reputation - there is no way Plushenko would have even been on the podium.
     
  5. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Levels is the Technical panel call, not the judges. But you will find skaters who are aiming for a level 3 but they only do enough on the day to achieve a level 1. I have been a TC where a good skater didn't get any value on a combination spin because they didn't hold any of the basic positions for 2 revs. But it was probably a +1 GOE from the judges.

    It is quite normal for judges to monitor skaters programs and provide feedback throughout the season, whether it be after a competition or in a skater monitoring session. I am involved in a session on the weekend where skaters present their programs and the judges will provide feedback to the skaters in order to help them improve. Believe or not coaches and judges can look at programs differently and bringing a judge in can provide a fresh perspective to what what the coach sees day after day.
     
  6. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if Frank taking on Gracie means that Evan is done for the season. With Ten and Gracie he has two skaters who will be competing all season for sure.
     
  7. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Either way, it would be helpful for a skater to get to a competition so it can be called before a big event. Many have been surprised at early competitions.
     
  8. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    That's why I said it may have been Olympic inflation. Those two judges who gave plushenko 5.00 may have been like Inman and just like he gave weir a 3 in transitions at us nationals they may have given plushenko 3.00. Inman was obviously in close Contact with two judges in the men's sp panel and they all discussed what would be and appropriate score for plushenkos transitions in the sp and came up with 5 based on his interview in January! it's just strange that they didnt just go with 3! That's what Inman did and giving plushenko 5.00 was already below the corridor! And wasn't seen again until the 20th place plus skaters. It's true that some judges wanted plushenko to place below tenth place closer to 20th!!
     
  9. peibeck

    peibeck Letting Poje be on top

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    :confused: If this statement was a reality he would not have nearly won a second consecutive Olympic title.

    That's like saying the judges wanted to hold down Kostner, the reigning world silver medalist and just crowned European Champion and that's why she placed 16th in Vancouver. It's just wrong. She ended up there because she skated poorly.
     
  10. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    Kostner placed an unfortunate 12th in Los Angeles at the 2009 Worlds. She was the 2008 World silver medalist. Rochette was the reigning World silver medalist going into Vancouver. Still, your point stands . . . skate poorly, place poorly. :)
     
  11. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    It was only two judges on the sp panel! they tried their best but there were 7 other Judges and it was likely one of their scores were thrown out! Otherwise it almost seems The point is plushenko at 2010 Olympics = kostner at 2010 olympics? Kostner skate respectably in the sp and bombed the lp! Plushenko got two 5.00 in the sp! The only skater to place in the top 20 to see that and he skated well in the sp Though more 6.0 well than cop well. Though he did have level 4 spins.
     
  12. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Well, do you think those 5.00s were undeserved? Wait, I think I already know the answer to that question.
     
  13. ciocio

    ciocio Active Member

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    I don't think judges needed a letter from Inman to decide if Plushenko deserved or not those 5.00s. If he deserves 8 or 9 is someone going to send a letter about it?
     
  14. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Plushenko probably doesn't need an advocacy letter to get 8s. 9s maybe. However, if he absolutely deserved them, and was systematically and consistently underscored, then maybe somebody should write one.

    Don't judges already talk about this stuff? I guess I'm too into my own studies of Supreme Court justices discussing the merits of a case with their clerks and with each other (passing on notes and communication) when deciding where they stand on some cases, but I really don't see what the big deal is since judges should be discussing their work. That doesn't mean they all agree or are influenced. A good judge would want to discuss what makes up good transitions, skating skills, P/E, etc. with each other to further their own understanding, and they should also have enough training to not be severely influenced by one letter if they don't agree with it.

    I think a small minority of people are only making a big deal about the letter because it happened to Plushenko. If it happened to another skater, the people raising a stink would not care. Maybe the letter struck a cord because it was convincing. Transitions are one of those things that one can almost objectively look at to see if they're there or not.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2013
  15. ciocio

    ciocio Active Member

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    I was waiting for Inman to send letters about other skaters too, but they did not appear. Unlike USA, in Europe FS is still popular and Mr Inman's letter did not have a positive impact on its popularity. :cool:
     
  16. NadineWhite

    NadineWhite Well-Known Member

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    Back On Topic: here's hoping to see Evan at Nationals! :cool:

    The best competition is when everybody skates their best and you win. To the victor go the spoils. Bring it on, may the victor face all comers! :respec:

    Personally, I would love to see a rematch of Evgeni versus Evan (the two *E's*) at Sochi. This time on Evgeni's turf. :smokin: Reminds me of the big fights of the past with Holyfield, Spinks, Ali, Tyson. :hat1:
     
  17. misskarne

    misskarne #408

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    I think, IMO anyway, the primary issue was Inman is American. At that point in time it was becoming increasingly obvious that an American was Plushenko's main rival. It was NOT a good look for an American judge to be sending that stuff around, regardless of its accuracy.

    Let's put it this way: had it been the other way around, and a Russian judge had been sending letters about American skaters, I have no doubt the sport would have gone into full-scale meltdown.
     
  18. NadineWhite

    NadineWhite Well-Known Member

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    OT: very eloquently said, misskarne, I agree, and even said so to Mr. Inman when he posted on Goldenskate a few years back. The dirty tactics of the American(s) I say. :EVILLE::blocjudge:

    Now I will say no more on the subject and am sorry for derailing the thread, my apologies to Evan.
     
  19. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, just one more reply.

    Other judges or officials within the ISU could have pointed out Inman's bias and failure to be objective, if they find that to be true. They could have done something to sanction his behavior if they found it to be unethical or beyond the proper role of a judge. They didn't as far as I know.

    Plus this was a special case of a skater openly and publicly admitting his program had no transitions and yet was receiving scores that did not indicate that. Despite Inman's motivations, I don't think the letter was incorrect. It's hard to figure out motivation as people tend to have nuanced and complicated motivations to do what they do. Like why do you get up in the morning? For a multitude of reasons, not just one reason. Maybe Inman was solely motivated by the U.S./Russia rivalry (Evan/Plushenko) and wanted secure gold for USA. Maybe he was motivated by his love of the letter of the rulebook and wanted to see it executed properly. Didn't he also score Weir low at Nationals for transitions? That would mean he's consistent with his attention to that part of PCS.

    Also, I think people are being paranoid talking about a full-scale meltdown. If anything, it'd be some sort of controversy NBC could have drummed up, people would care during the Olympics for a bit, but nothing would have happened long-term. It'd be like the way people who were angry with Inman reacted.

    A question, is figure skating still wildly popular in Europe? I'm honestly asking. I know figure skating isn't as popular as it used to be in North America, but I'd argue it's as popular as it can be given how a low-ranked sport this is and all of the competition for TV time and internet that exists. Compared to the top sports, yes Figure skating falls way behind in popularity. However, compared to most sports, figure skating is doing pretty well considering it still has primetime tv coverage (even if it's limited). Most global sports don't have that kind of air time. (Of course, there are other ways to measure popularity).
     
    alilou and (deleted member) like this.
  20. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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  21. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Yay, conspiracies.
     
  22. Yazmeen

    Yazmeen Well-Known Member

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    Ya know, can we let this one REST finally????? It was close, they both skated well. Evan won, mostly because he skated using 2010 COP and Plushenko skated using 2006 COP (lack of transitions, front-loaded program despite the quads). Regardless of what some would like, to borrow from Tara Lipinski, Evan won the gold and they can "never take that away." To me, it was just great to see a really close finish and see all 3 medalists skate so well. One very memorable aspect of the 2010 games was the skating in all the disciplines and not seeing people medal a la the way Sasha did in 2006 after a very flawed skate or a repeat of 2002 Ladies where the winner was a surprise at least partially because the favorites fouled up.

    Would love to see both Evan and Plush duke it out again, but I wonder if they can physically hold up to do so.
     
  23. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Maybe. But many European TVs and news disagreed with Evan's victory. The SP's marks were bad and disproportionate, the LP's marks were Ok.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2013
  24. SkateFan66

    SkateFan66 Active Member

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    After Evan skated his SP, and was waiting on his marks, one of the British Eurosport commentators opined that Lysacek would be the new leader. If a commentator was opining that Lysacek did enough to take the lead, then it is a stretch to say that his SP marks were 'bad and disproportionate.' ;)
     
  25. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Deserved or not he was the only one to get two 5.00 in the top 20! No one else in the top 20 was judged to have two 5.00 in transitions.

    LOL- It's hilarious to think of the nuclear explosion if this had been the other way! COP may not even exist or the judge would have been expelled from skating forever.

    As a judge the proper thing would be to say only to judge what's on the ice. Not judge a skater but what is said in an interview! Which became the Inman policy for judges and Plushenko! Judge him by his interview! The letter was incorrect and horrible and extremely political. Plushenko also implied that transitions only come before jumps! As a judge Inman should know that is not true! If anything the letter should not have been judge plushenko by what he says and give him fives or lower like Inman's 3 for Weir but the skater doesn't even know all the details of what counts as a transition under COP! Moves before or after every technical element. The comment of "no transitions because focus on jumps" isn't even right! Then for judge who teaches judges to send a letter to other judges saying judge plushenko based on his comment and not his skating was ridiculous.
     
  26. eurodance2001

    eurodance2001 Active Member

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    It would be interesting to meet certain posters in person to see if they speak how they write. Using exclamations to finish every sentence is a bit over the top and hilarious.
     
  27. Yazmeen

    Yazmeen Well-Known Member

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    I swear some posters would only be happy if they could go back in time and snatch Evan's medal from around his neck and award it to the skater they believe should have won. And in at least one case, I wonder if the poster is working with a Steampunk guru to see if that time machine could actually be built...
     
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  28. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadruple_jump_controversy

    I know german, duch, french, swiss, italian, mexican, chinese, of course russian news and experts disagreed Evan's victory. I followed every moments in this matter, you believe me. ;)
    (And maybe you know, on Yahoo sport was a poll inmediateli after the competition ,and Plushenko won 70/30 %.)
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2013
  29. OliviaPug

    OliviaPug Well-Known Member

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    So what?

    O-
     
  30. ciocio

    ciocio Active Member

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    Personally I think Evan deserved to win, but Inman letter was ridiculous especially because it was based on an interview that did not existed. What appeared in AS were some quotes from a press conference for KOI and it's the only source where Plushenko's statement about transitions appears. I've read other interviews too, but Plushenko was saying he has less transitions than other skaters, which is very different. :confused: