Frank Carroll concerned: crunch time for Evan

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Yazmeen, Sep 17, 2013.

  1. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    If Evan did petition for an Olympic spot without having competed (he won't) this season it would be nothing like Kwan's situation. Kwan was reigning National Champ (8 times in a row, I might add) and was just off the podium at the previous Worlds and had medaled at Worlds (and won) that very same quad. Even with those credentials Kwan still had to prove her readiness (and did). Evan would not ask for any such spot without competing at least once and I seriously doubt the US would give it to him when we only have 2 spots to spare, anyway.
     
  2. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Since they didn't give Sasha a spot when she tried for the comeback, I don't think they'd give one to Evan in a petition. With only two spots, and him not competing for 4 years, it would be an absolute farce if they did.
     
  3. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    There would be a difference between Lysacek filing a petition and the petition being accepted, unless he already had a pending promise to accept it, or he wouldn't bother to file.

    Although Lysacek has not skated in four years, he is the reigning Olympic champion and a World Champion, unlike Cohen, and if he comes with sponsors important to USFS, that could have some influence.
     
  4. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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    Ice Challenge in Graz, Austria (Nov. 19-24) is the latest of the 6 Senior B comps currently listed on USFS' International Assignments page.
     
  5. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    There are also two Senior B's after US Nats and before the Olympic filing deadline of 27 Jan 14.
     
  6. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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    I think that if Lysacek doesn't compete internationally before Nationals then he likely won't show up to compete in Boston.

    ETA: USFS has sent skaters in previous years to Golden Spin of Zagreb in Croatia - 2013 dates are Dec. 5-8.
     
  7. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    I wondered if he didn't want to compete internationally before he was in shape and knowing if he was going to make the US team, to not play his hand before he had to.
     
  8. Jun Y

    Jun Y Well-Known Member

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    I don't think "not playing one's hand" is any advantage or incentive whatsoever in sports in general and especially in figure skating. I don't know of any skater who has benefited from secrecy until they burst onto the stage, surprised everyone, and took home all the cake.
     
  9. Oreo

    Oreo Active Member

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    If Evan has had successive injuries for the last two years, how on earth is he going to skate out on the ice in Boston with two dazzling programs and still remain uninjured to skate equally brilliantly the following month in Sochi? It's fantasyland. I admire him hugely for working ridiculously hard. He can hold his head up high at what he's accomplished. Michelle Kwan's wonderful quote comes to mind: "I'm not bitter, I'm just bitter about my body." Evan's body has made his decision for him. I feel badly for him. But there it is. I hope to see him skate somewhere.
     
  10. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Perhaps you weren't a Knicks fan in 1970 ;)
    http://youtu.be/qqWD5lhGBOQ?t=3m18s

    Virtue and Moir said that they did everything possible to hide their pain, because they felt that if they showed any vulnerability, the judges would use it to mark them down. They haven't been the only skaters to make this point. Linichuk was renowned for playing games, pulling her athletes from various competitions to keep people guessing, and Vasiliev almost had a cow accusing the Chinese of exaggerating Zhao's injury to play head games with T/M in 2006.
     
  11. Jun Y

    Jun Y Well-Known Member

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    Granted, if your opponent is one team or one person, you can make a run for it by playing mind games, although the result is often more wishful thinking than real effectiveness, I'm willing to bet.

    In something like figure skating, where you are playing against an entire field of opponents plus yourself plus judges, I think it's laughable to believe that secrecy and mind manipulation techniques can be an advantage. Vasiliev has issues with paranoia and could accuse Chinese team of sacrificing live pigs to the skating gods. As for Linichuk, I think she believes in her own little games but the effectiveness of them remains unproven.

    Judges' impression should be a grave concern for anyone who's toying with secrecy as a strategy. Skating is a subjective sport and it is not uncommon that many judges "don't know how they feel" about a program or performance upon first viewing. Their opinions tend to take shape and reach consensus over numerous viewings and discussions with colleagues and "buzz on the street." I'd say secrecy poses more risk than advantage in this sport, unless you possess the technical goods that are almost definitely going to outgun everyone in the field.
     
  12. Frau Muller

    Frau Muller President of Dick Button Appreciation Club

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    Maybe the 'plan' :sekret: is to get Evan on the team via petition (2nd spot, after the US champ), have him skate in the Team Event to get NBC viewers to tune in. Then Evan will become conveniently "indisposed" after the Team Event, thus allowing enough time for the man who came in 2nd at the U.S. Natonals -- the alternate -- to get to Sochi before the start of the REAL Men's event.

    I sincerely hope NOT but, sorry to say, it's all about the :bribe::bribe::bribe:.
     
  13. misskarne

    misskarne #ForzaJules #KeepFightingMichael

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    Serious question: would that be allowed? I've been trying to find the answer to this question ever since it became apparent that a) Russia only can send one man and b) Plushy's body is held together with racetape and cable ties. So far, I have not been able to find a direct answer to the question of what happens if someone gets injured during the team event.
     
  14. Loves_Shizuka

    Loves_Shizuka Gettin' my sass out

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    A genuine question (as someone else upthread suggested that Evan "brings lots of sponsors with him" or something) but is he really that much of a draw$$$?
     
  15. NadineWhite

    NadineWhite Well-Known Member

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    Excellent question, misskarme!

    I too am interested in the response. The first thing that came to mind was the 1992 Olympics in Women's Gymnastics (I recall it like yesterday): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatiana_Gutsu
     
  16. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I ensure you even as cocky as he can Evan wont dare try and petition onto the team if he WDs from Nationals or does not complete it, even if he has the qualifying score to be eligible for the Games. Unless he somehow won Skate America with a monstrous score or something like that. He would have no case and he knows it.

    Michelle Kwan did have a case since she was 4th at the 2005 Worlds and no other American ladies at the time, outside Cohen of course, were capable of anything near that (Meissner's shock World title to come in a depleted post Olympic field aside). It wasnt like she had been away since 2002 and simply showed up expecting a bye.
     
  17. BittyBug

    BittyBug Kiteless

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    You seem to be assuming that a skater would perform in front of the same judge or judges at multiple competitions, which is rarely the case. Also, it would be pretty unethical for a judge to discuss a performance with colleagues or base his or her marks on anything other than what happens on the ice at the competition the judge is assessing. Yes, judges are human, but they are not supposed to be thinking, "Gee, everyone is raving about so and so's layback, let me give it a +3," they're supposed to be thinking, "What GOE criteria do I see here at this moment."
     
  18. Frau Muller

    Frau Muller President of Dick Button Appreciation Club

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    re. the possibility of 'machinations' to get Evan on the team just to promote the Team Event, then possibly 'pull' him from the regular Men's event (with whatever excuse) and call the Men's alternate to Sochi to skate the Men's event: Well, YES - the rule for any competition is that an alternate can step in, assuming that USFSA will name alternates to all disciplines. I'm sure that Sylvia or someone else can quote chapter and verse in the ISU regs, but I remember reading that alternates can be named & used, provided the substitution is made within the # of days before the draw for the short programs. The Men's event is not until the following week, so there will be plenty of time for #2 (or #3) at US Nationals to make it to Sochi, especially if USFSA is savvy enough to obtain visas for all alternates as soon as those alternates are named.
     
  19. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    I would hope so. I would hate to see this case with Lysacek become a repeat of the Cohen saga from the 2009 GP season when she withdrew from her GP event so late that a replacement for her could not be called upon in a timely manner. It's a shame when so many capable skaters would love the opportunity to compete, yet are unable to do so and an entry spot simply stays vacant because of another athlete's indecision. :(
     
  20. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Marina Anissina's comeback is more realistic at this stage. :p
     
  21. Jun Y

    Jun Y Well-Known Member

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    Oh, please. First, judges are not trial juries. They are not supposed to exchange their opinions during a competition, but they can talk about it afterward. In fact they routinely talk about their decisions in post-competition meetings and some are required to explain/defend their scores if their scores look grossly out of line. It's a tradition that goes back to the 6.0 era. Second, judges judge not only GOEs (if one is unable to judge GOE adequately one should not be sitting there in the first place), but there is that minor thing they have to judge called "components." Other judges' opinions about a programs content and theme and choreography can make an impression on the mind of other judges. Remember Joe Inman's remark before 2010?
     
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  22. Canadask8er

    Canadask8er New Member

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    Evan needs to pack it in. He won his Olympic gold. Sure, the professional world does not have the same draw as previous Olympic champions... but leave competitive skating with some pride on what you have accomplished.
     
  23. BittyBug

    BittyBug Kiteless

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    From U.S. Figure Skating's Rule Book - I assume the ISU has similar standards:

    Really? :eek: I would never have known. :rolleyes: So take my comment and replace GOE with "components."

    See JR 1.01 above.

    Inman did speak out, but did his comments "make an impression on the mind of other judges"? You can't necessarily compare scores from one competition to another, but Plushenko's components scores for his free skate at 2010 Euros, which preceded Inman's remark, were 83.10, and his Transition marks ranged from 7.00 to 8.50, with an average of 7.65. His corresponding scores in Vancouver were 82.80, and his Transition marks ranged from 6.00 to 8.75, with an average of 7.25. Was that difference due to Inman's comment? We'll never know, but for comparison, Stephane Lambiel's Transition scores from Euros ranged of 7.50 to 8.75 with an average of 8.25, while in Vancouver they ranged from 7.25 to 9.00 with an average of 8.05. Given that Lambiel's program was pretty packed with transitions what conclusion would you draw? His Transition scores also varied more and were lower on average in Vancouver - was that also due to Inman's remark?

    I'll go back to your original comment, which was:

    You don't seem to have a lot of faith in judges if you think they can't make up their own minds.
     
  24. Triple Axel

    Triple Axel New Member

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    It absolutely was. He beat my beloved Gachinski, and I didn't know whether to cheer or cry...
     
  25. Jun Y

    Jun Y Well-Known Member

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    All right. I admit that, in my original comment, I made assertions about judges forming their impression on some programs over the season. Obviously, I'm not a judge and neither do I have to judges' internal and unconscious thoughts/impressions/reactions. So it's my speculation.

    Nevertheless, I do not believe the USFS rule 1.01 and 1.06 preclude judges from discussing programs AFTER a competition AMONG THEMSELVES. Whether and how much each person is influenced by their fellow judges, I am not in the position to say, but each person can draw one's own conclusion, and I have mine, which is that there is definitely influence, albeit variable for every person. Did Inman's comment influence some judges? (The fact that he did circulate his comment/question among judges was against neither USFS nor ISU rule, nor was it unethical, contrary to the "outcry" from some observers.) I'm not in their mind so I can't say with certainty. I think we can safely assume that one comment/question/reminder/nudge from Inman would not suddenly reform the way components are judged among all international judges. But are you sure it had no effect?

    Going back to the issue of whether keeping one's programs secret until the last big event and bursting onto the scene would give one competitive advantage. My guess is no, there is no advantage over one's opponents in the field, and there is a lot of risk entailing disadvantage for judges if you allow them to see the program only once. In contrast, high profile skaters who have many opportunities throughout the season to show their programs to international judges can clarify and "solidify" some judges' impression and attain a more, let's say accurate, assessment. I think it is very likely that judges' opinions of a program (especially things like the choice of music, theme, choreography, expression) evolve over the season, especially for high profile skaters, over multiple exposures, which may include directly judging it, seeing it in practice on events they judge other disciplines, seeing it on TV, seeing how their fellow judges give their scores, or hearing "the buzz." I tend to believe that seeing a program for the first time produces the least accurate assessment.

    So, aside from the question of peer influence, which we all agree is unmeasurable, there is the question of multiple exposures for at least some judges. There is a theory in neuroscience, with some empirical data to back it up, that says that the mind tends to get used to and form more favorable opinion about an art piece that is initially jarring or shocking. An example is "The Rite of Spring," which caused an angry riot upon its debut but is now a beloved classic.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2013
  26. Triple Axel

    Triple Axel New Member

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  27. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Judges are not meant to talk about the competition with anyone during the event (between SP and FS) but afterwards they are free to discuss the competition. For major events they have round table discussions where this happens.
     
  28. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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  29. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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  30. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

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    The problem with showing your program once is that if there is an area where a judge might mark something down because they think it's against the rules or maybe it even is, you don't get any chance to clarify or change your program. You also don't get any "mileage" on your program and the advantage of that should not be underestimated.
     
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