Four years ago...

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by skateboy, Aug 24, 2010.

  1. Nomad

    Nomad Well-Known Member

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    I'm surprised that there's a German lady who can do it. The level of skating among the German ladiezzz is rather low and has been since Savczenko retired. Dytrt seems to be the only one with a lutz and flip in her arsenal but she crash-lands so many jumps that it doesn't really make any difference on the international stage.
     
  2. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Well, as far as I understand it, Dytrt did not manage to qualify herself for Olympics (meet the marks that were set by the German skating association), whereaz Sarah Hecken did, so maybe a new German lady is on the rise. I think she was still quite young, so she may be a good skater in the future.

    Just remembered, Sarah Hecken may not be doing 3loop and 3 flip, but the whole last season she was attempting 3Lutz. I don't think she managed to land it in bigger competition though (I am not sure if I remember correctly, but I think at Olympics she singled it and at Worlds it was downgraded, or something like that) but I assume that she can do it otherwise she wouldn't be putting it in in both competitions. I don't remember if she landed it in smaller competition (GP or any other smaller event).
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2010
  3. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Sarah was attempting 3lo and 3lz last year, though she strugggled with both jumps a bit. She did very well at Worlds though, finishing 12th with a score of about 150. I think she is definitely capable of being competitive on the European stage, and potentially even medaling at Euros this season.
     
  4. Nomad

    Nomad Well-Known Member

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    Being half German and having lived there on and off since birth, I'm all for a German lady who can make a good showing on the European/World level. I've been hoping for good things from Sarah since she won the national title in 2008. If she can master the harder jumps and polish up her other elements, I'll be very happy.
     
  5. mgobluegirl

    mgobluegirl Well-Known Member

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    ...and not wear that dreadful thing she did last year, please.
     
  6. Nomad

    Nomad Well-Known Member

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    :lol: Which dreadful thing? The PR Christian Sirano chocolate dirndl or the PR Kayne Gillaspie blue floral table cloth?
     
  7. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

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    Sarah is a powerful jumper, but her spinning needs and her spirals :)eek:) need a serious overhaul, in addition to her presentation. She is no doubt gifted, but if she wants to make herself a serious contender for Euros...much work is needed.
     
  8. chipso1

    chipso1 Well-Known Member

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  9. mgobluegirl

    mgobluegirl Well-Known Member

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  10. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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  11. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Yes, this one is a bit .....
     
  12. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Spirals aren't worth much anymore, they took it out of the SP and in the FS it's just judged on GOE. Her spins need work yes, but as long as she can learn to get high levels on her spins, I think she will be fine. Plenty of top skaters can get high levels on spins without being very flexible or having the spins look beautiful (Rachael, Joannie, Miki come to mind). Sarah is also tall and thin so that helps her look more graceful on the ice even though she isn't the smoothest skater out there. And honestly, it's Euros, until those little Russian girls are old enough to compete, the field isn't looking too deep.
     
  13. mia joy

    mia joy New Member

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    I don't know, maybe because I'm so desperate to finally see a European girl capable of taking the battle against Asian and American ladies. And ok, there may be just a few Americans who can do 3-3, but once they can, it's usually more than just 3t-3t. Besides, it's kind of lame if you ask me to be proud of your tremedous 3t-3t, when at the same time you cannot do a solid triple lutz or flip, like some of the Europeans. I mean, having Laura Lepisto as the best European skater at Worlds is kind of depressing for me... What I mean is, Americans at least try. Europeans seem to have given up and loving their 3t-3t as it was something that awesome.
    Perhaps I'm mean or unfair or sound not objective at all, but as a European I would really like to see some new Slutskaya once in a while... I would also like to feel at least a bit excited when I'm at Euros and it's Saturday, because past few years, you couldn't help but fall asleep in the stands... :p
     
  14. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Polina Shelepen, 15, just landed 7 triples and 2 double axels, including a 2a-3t and 2a-3t-2t combination, in her FS yesterday at the first JGP event of the season. Her teammate, Roza Sheveleva, 14, landed 5 triples and 2 double axels in her FS at the same event. The two girls claimed the gold and bronze medals for Russia, and they landed lutzes and flips in their programs and without any edge calls even, so just wait a few years and the European prospects should be more exciting.
     
  15. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    And another Russian, young Tutkamysheva, has a triple axel. I think soon it may be American girls who are going to be staying behind...
     
  16. eyh201

    eyh201 New Member

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    Well, I think you'll be excited at the 2014 Olympics. Lots of terrific Russian junior skaters are waiting to compete on senior circuit. :)
     
  17. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Well, let's clarify something:
    Americans at least try, whereas European ladies are happy with their
    3T-3T? :huh:

    Olympics: Flat did 3F-3T in her SP, Nagasu did not do any 3-3 in her SP.
    Flat did 3F-3T, which was downgraded in her FS, Nagasu did not do any 3-3 in her FS.

    Worlds - Nagasu did 3Lz-3T in her SP, but it was downgraded. Flat did not do any 3-3 in her SP. Neither Flat nor Nagasu did any 3-3 in their FS.

    4 continets- Dobbs, Zhang and Gilles did not do any 3-3 combinations at all in neither SP nor FS.

    That much for Americans at least trying. :rolleyes:

    As I see it, European ladies are trying. You can't really blame them for not trying harder combinations at competitions if they can't land them clean, but the strategy while competing and being marked is to try to get as many points as possible, so still better to land clean 3T-3T, than trying for 3F-3T (or 3Lz-3T) and have it downgraded.

    However, as the rules re: marking underrotations eased off for this season, I do believe that there will be more skaters willing to risk 3-3.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2010
  18. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    I forgot to add, it does look like if european ladies are so much behind North american ladies, but if you take out the results of Asian ladies, you may see that actually European ladies and North american ladies were pretty equal at Worlds.

    Worlds:
    3 Laura LEPISTO FIN
    5 Cynthia PHANEUF CAN
    6 Carolina KOSTNER ITA
    7 Mirai NAGASU USA
    8 Ksenia MAKAROVA RUS
    9 Rachael FLATT USA
    10 Viktoria HELGESSON SWE
    12 Sarah HECKEN GER
    13 Alena LEONOVA RUS
    14 Jenna MCCORKELL GBR
    15 Julia SEBESTYEN HUN

    Though I have to admit that european ladies were badly beaten at Olympics.

    Olympics:
    3 ROCHETTE Joannie CAN
    4 NAGASU Mirai USA
    6 LEPISTO Laura FIN
    7 FLATT Rachael USA
    9 LEONOVA Alena RUS
    10 MAKAROVA Ksenia RUS
    11 KORPI Kiira FIN
    12 PHANEUF Cynthia CAN
    14 GEDEVANISHVILI Elene GEO
    15 MEIER Sarah SUI
    16 KOSTNER Carolina ITA
     
  19. mia joy

    mia joy New Member

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    yes, that's exactly what I meant by my first post, starting this whole discussion... :p

    and I still value trying 3lz-3t or 3f-3t and having it downgraded or falling or making any other mistake more than a clean 3t-3t (that is why, for example, Kostner is still a better skater for me than, lets take Lepisto). But that's just me, I like it when they risk. Same goes for Mao's 3a and men's quads.
     
  20. Nomad

    Nomad Well-Known Member

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    Maybe now that downgrades aren't quite so harsh more ladies will attempt the harder 3-3s. For most of the past quad the penalties for URs have been ridiculous.
     
  21. Allen

    Allen Glad to be back!

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    I agree. The only way we are going to see more consistent 3-3s is for people to regularly throw them in competition. Why do that if you think you might under rotate and get a huge drop in your start value? Considering that we've seen a lot of blah programs lately, I at least want to see a 3-3 in there to give me something to get excited about.
     
  22. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    Dick Button meant that Elena Sokolova was cute as a cupcake. It's an affectionate phrase in North America for someone who is seen as adorable. Sokolova is known for her big, sweet smile and I recall when I first saw her broadcast in America as just a very young girl, I thought she shared a resemblance to the Rainbow Brite cartoon character. She's so cute and sweet looking. Interestingly enough, I also thought Irina Slutskaya shared a resemblance to the Strawberry Shortcake cartoon character as a little girl with those rosy cheeks and charming smile of her's. :)

    Four years ago, I predicted Lysacek, Oda, and Takahashi would be on the next Olympic podium. I got 2 out of 3 right. I never would have thought/dreamed that the mens' event would have been as lackluster in Vancouver as it was though given the depth of the talent pool. (le sigh)
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2010
  23. RunnersHigh

    RunnersHigh Well-Known Member

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    http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=72315

    That's what I posted on 5, March but moved into Archive...

    For your convenience. (I added 2010 World Championship)

    Statistics on the 2nd triple 09/10 season.


    I just studied on the 2nd triple for fun and got these result.
    The results are all based on ISU hosting intn'l events(GP Series and Final, Euro and 4C) plus Olympics and World.

    > There had been 4 kinds of 2nd triples : 3Lz+3T, 3F+3T, 3T+3T, 2A+3T.
    > Just 10 skaters were ratified for their 2nd triples.
    > 3 skaters (Miki, Akiko and Caroline) tried but never ratified.
    > European skaters are really good at 3T-3T.
    > No Japanese skaters had been ratified.
    > 2nd triples
    .... 3Lz+3T : Yu-Na Kim, Mirai Nagasu.
    .... 3F+3T : Rachael Flatt, Carolina Kostner
    .... 2A+3T : Yu-Na Kim, Mirai Nagasu
    .... 3T+3T : other 6 skaters
    > Ratified/tried 2nd Triples in each event.
    .... <GP Series and Final> TEB: 4/4, RC: 0/2, CoC: 0/1, NHK: 1/1, SA: 7/8, SC: 2/4, GPF: 0/2
    .... <Euro> 8/12
    .... <4C> 0/0
    .... <OLY> 14/17
    .... <World> 13/15

    --------------------------------
    Skaters ratified one more time..
    --------------------------------
    Yu-Na KIM had been ratified 11 times out of 14.
    -. TEB-SP... 3Lz+3T and FS.. 3Lz+3T, 2A+3T
    -. SA-SP.... 3Lz+3T and FS.. 3Lz+3T<, 2A+3T
    -. GPF-SP... 3Lz+3T< and FS.. 2A+3T<
    -. OLY-SP... 3Lz+3T and FS.. 3Lz+3T, 2A+3T
    -. World-SP..3Lz+3T and FS.. 3Lz+3T, 2A+3T
    Sarah HECKEN had been fully ratified for 8.
    -. SA-FS.... 3T+3T
    -. SC-SP.... 3T+3T
    -. Euro-SP.. 3T+3T and FS.. 3T+3T
    -. OLY-SP... 3T+3T and FS.. 3T+3T
    -. World-SP..3T+3T and FS.. 3T+3T
    Elena GLEBOVA had been ratified 5 times out of 7.
    -. SA-SP.... 3T+3T and FS.. 3T+3T
    -. Euro-SP.. 3T+3T< and FS.. 3T+3T<
    -. OLY-SP... 3T+3T and FS.. 3T+3T
    -. World-SP..3T+3T
    Laura LEPISTO had been fully ratified for 6.
    -. SC-SP.... 2T+3T
    -. Euro-SP.. 3T+3T and FS.. 3T+3T
    -. OLY-FS... 3T+3T
    -. World-SP... 3T+3T and FS.. 3T+3T
    Elene GEDEVANISHVILI had been ratified 3 times out of 5.
    -. TEB-FS... 3T+3T
    -. Euro-FS.. 3T+3T+2T
    -. OLY-SP... 3T+3T and FS.. 3T+3T<+2T
    -. World-SP..3T+3T<
    Alena LEONOVA had been ratified 4 times out of 5.
    -. NHK-FS... 3T+3T
    -. Euro-SP.. 3T+3T and FS.. 3T+3T<
    -. OLY-SP... 3T+3T
    -. World-FS.. 3T+3T
    Ksenia MAKAROVA had been ratified 5 times out of 6
    -. Euro-SP.. 3T+3T and FS.. 3T+3T<
    -. OLY-SP... 3T+3T and FS.. 3T+3T
    -. World-SP..3T+3T and FS.. 3T+3T
    Rachael FLATT had been ratified 3 times out of 4.
    -. SA-SP.... 3F+3T and FS..3F+3T
    -. OLY-SP... 3F+3T and FS..3F<+3T
    Mirai NAGASU had been ratified twice out of 4.
    -. CoC-FS... 2A+3T<
    -. OLY-FS... 2A+3T
    -. World-SP..3Lz+3T< and FS.. 2A+3T
    Carolina KOSTNER tried twice and ratified.
    -. Euro-FS.. 3F!+3T (corrected from SP to FS: briancoogaert)
    -. World-FS..3F+3T
    --------------------------------
    Skaters never ratified..
    --------------------------------
    Miki ANDO had never ratified for her 2nd triples this season yet.
    -. RC-SP.... 3Lz+3Lo< and FS..2A+3T<
    -. OLY-SP... 3Lz+3Lo<
    Caroline ZHANG tried once and downgraded.
    -. SC-SP.... 3F+3T<
    Akiko SUZUKI also
    -. SC-FS.... 1A+3T<
     
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  24. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I for one never believed Kwan was ever coming back and I dont think most believed she was after her withdrawal from the 2006 Olympics either. I did think Kimmie would be a bigger force than she has been over the last 4 years, but I never thought she would hold off Asada or Kim on a regular basis. I expected Kim and Asada to dominate the next quad, challenged possibly by Cohen if she stayed in, possibly some by Meissner, and possibly some by Kostner or Ando if they got their acts together. I saw Nakano a possible medal contender too but never believed she would win Worlds with her jump technique. I expected Suguri to bow out gracefully after the 2007 season (which I predicted even after her silver at the 06 Worlds she would miss the team for). I knew we had probably seen the last of Kwan, Arakawa, or Slutskaya, and I didnt expect any of those to be real factors even if they continued at that point other than possibly Shizuka.


    Pretty much but I never expected Joubert to continue to dominate. Even when he won his World title he was only 3rd in the long program behind Lambiel who had 3 big mistakes. I thought the mens was wide open at that point. I wasnt sold on Chan as a major contender though until atleast fall of 2008 (and after Buttle had retired), I was never completely sold on Oda (with good reason it turns out), and I felt even then that Weir would not be a big factor by 2010 as he was already seemingly not one anymore by 2007. I thought Joubert, Lambiel, Takahashi, Buttle, and maybe Lysacek would share the pie.


    Yeah pretty much. I saw the Germans and Zhangs as the dominant 2 teams heading to 2010 at that point, with Pang & Tong just behind them, and several other teams just behind them hoping to eke onto the podium.


    I started to get an eery feeling after the 2007 Worlds that Belbin & Agosto would never make it to the top step of a major podium. Domnina & Shabalin looked like a huge threat for 2010 to me even as early as 2006. Delobel & Schoenfelder I did not even expect to continue until 2010 back in 2006 and 2007, and only started seeing them as big threats for 2010 in 2008 (both end of 07-08 season and start of 08-09) before the injuries and pregnancy. I considered Denkova & Stayviski as major threats if they continued, which of course they ultimately did not. I knew Virtue & Moir were contenders for 2010 as early as 2006, but was not all convinced on Davis & White were real factors for 2010 at that point.
     
  25. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I never expected her to remain a contender though. She was already 25 in 2006 so it was clear she was going to be too old, and much too old by 2010, and her skating as an amateur had maxed out. She tried her best but narrowly missed an Olympic medal and World title that season, but still posted her career high points with a 4th at the Olympics and 2nd at Worlds. I knew then it was time for her to move on to grow her skating as a professional and reap the rewards of a fine amateur career in which she had maxed out her potential, and things would go downhill if she did otherwise.

    Even after Skate Canada in 2006 where she barely beat a multi fall Kim in one of her senior debut events it was evident she wouldnt be much of a factor again. Her scoring potential by then was limited, and Rochette with a major error in both programs still easily beat a clean Fumie.
     
  26. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Thank you, Runnershigh for such a thorough overview. I knew I read it somewhere. So we have 7 ladies with 3-3 in Europe. Not bad at all. :)

    Sarah HECKEN
    Elena GLEBOVA
    Laura LEPISTO
    Elene GEDEVANISHVILI
    Alena LEONOVA
    Ksenia MAKAROVA
    Carolina KOSTNER

    :cheer2: :cheer2: :cheer2: :cheer2: :cheer2: :cheer2: :cheer2:

    Ok, I admit that european ladies have mostly (appart of Kostner) the easiest 3T-3T, but I don't think that European ladies are that far behind North American ladies.
     
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  27. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    I don't either. As a whole, I prefer watching more of the Euro ladies than the North American ladies. The only NA ladies I really enjoy are Rochette, Wagner, Nagasu, and Phaneuf. With Euro ladies, on the other hand, I enjoy Kostner, Makarova, Meier, Leonova, Lepisto, and Gedevanishvili. As a whole, the Euro ladies to me seem more mature and womanly and have better skating skills and ice command than the majority of the North American ladies who are younger and more immature and who skate slower and lack command of the ice. JMO.
     
  28. mia joy

    mia joy New Member

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    Yeah, but North America at least has a few skaters actually capable of taking the fight against the Asian girls, which Europe doesn't for now (unless Kostner is at her best). I mean, even if it's just two or three of them for now, it's still better than none.

    I'd agree that European girls have more personality, though. Much of the American ladies are quite styleless and pretty much copies of each other (though I think it changes as well).
     
  29. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Lepisto at her best can fight the Asian girls, judging from her FS score at the Olympics and bronze medal at Worlds even with mistakes. Ksenia isn't there yet but should be in a couple years. Plus the Russian wonderbabies are coming, I just watched videos of Polina Shelepen from Courcheval, she has grown up a lot and still is landing all the difficult jumps. Roza Sheveleva was also quite impressive.
     
  30. mia joy

    mia joy New Member

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    Lepisto has been riddiculously overmarked lately, she won her worlds' bronze with a free skate full of double jumps :rolleyes:

    about the Russian new generation - that's exactly what I've been talking about on and on. I know they're coming and probably will be in the lead in a couple of years. But for now I'm talking about those girls who are currently in the lead in Europe.