For Evan Lysacek, countdown to Sochi Games is on

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Jun 5, 2013.

  1. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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  2. Carolla5501

    Carolla5501 Well-Known Member

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    But he has to land ALL his triple axels I think. (Fingers and toes crossed for him to do so.)
  3. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Phil Hersh @olyphil just tweeted:
    (Ukrainian Open is Dec. 18-21.)
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2013
  4. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    According to the document USFS presented to USOC WRT the selection process, to be eligible for consideration, an athlete must meet the following criteria: 1. Have a passport that won't expire until a minimum of six months after the end of the OG 2. Meet IOC criteria 3. Be age-eligible by ISU standards 4. Have the TES minimums and 5. Be a member of USFS in good standing. Within those parameters, there are criteria for automatic consideration (1-5 at Nationals), injury byes (with a lot of requirements about monitoring, schedules, etc.) -- obviously not applicable were he to finish the competition -- and the possibility of placing lower than 5th, but having strong international results.

    Later in the document, it says that the committees/bodies that select and approve the athletes will begin to meet on 12 January 2014, and that it will present the list of nominees to USOC by 14 January 2014. The only thing in the document that seems to contradict this is if a slate of nominees cannot be approved by that time. ("The above process will be repeated until a slate receives approval by a majority vote of the International Committee.")

    According to the approved selection process, Lysacek will not be eligible for consideration if he hasn't completed all five basic eligibility requirements when the committee meets. If you can find a loophole that doesn't need USOC approval, go for it.
  5. NadineWhite

    NadineWhite Well-Known Member

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    Crossing my fingers & toes that Evan makes it to Nationals (he's worked so hard for one last chance, as has Evgeni) and skates his heart out, and may the chips fall where they may. :)
  6. jiejie

    jiejie Active Member

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    I agree with this.

    And this.

    Reading between the lines of PR/agent-speak, I'm taking this as a pretty clear signal that we won't be seeing Evan back in competition.
  7. Bookslut

    Bookslut Member

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    Evan might score the required minimum, but given this past year of injury will he then be in condition to be the best competitor at the Olympics? I don't see a US man who is likely to be on the podium, but Rippon, Aaron, Brown or Farris would strengthen the team for 2018 by giving them invaluable exposure and experience.
  8. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, Brown will have an uphill battle to get a silver, but I think it is in the realm of possibility.
    If Lysacek showed up skating Vancouver form (no quad)- he'd be national champion (I mean, that was good enough for an Olympic medal) no matter how many quads the other skaters land. But can he skate at that level still?

    But I don't see Lysacek showing up.

    Without a doubt, he'd get the minimum if he went to a senior B, but he's got to go.
  9. B.Cooper

    B.Cooper Active Member

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    I would suspect that Lysacek would be monitored this week (or was monitored last week) if he was to go out to the last Sr B.

    But, as others have posted, based upon Shep's comment, I think the writing is on the wall. Evan LOVES competition, but he likes to be in fighting shape. And, I think Shep is laying the ground work for Evan not competing in Boston.

    Quote Originally Posted by alilou:

    I think this quote from his agent step Goldberg speaks volumes
    "The bigger question is whether he could be in the best possible shape to represent the U.S. at the Olympics."
  10. Yazmeen

    Yazmeen Well-Known Member

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    Agree with B. Cooper, that statement from Shep is pretty ominous. I have a feeling we'll know later this week what the deal is with Evan.
  11. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Phil Hersh's latest is titled, predictably, "Why Evan Lysacek still is the talk of U.S. men's skating": http://www.chicagotribune.com/sport...s-mens-skating-20131205,0,2824359,full.column
    Excerpt:
  12. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    I wouldn't exactly call Brown's FS at SkAm "very poor"...it wasn't great, but it wasn't a total flop. And I don't think Aaron's had any total flops this year either. He hasn't skated well, but he hasn't totally flopped.

    And Lysacek wishes he ever skated as beautifully as Farris' Schindler's List.

    Hersh, stop trying to make "Lysacek as the greatest American male skater" happen. Newsflash: even if he did show at Nationals, he would struggle to make top five. Why? Because there are now a bunch of guys younger, hungrier, and BETTER.
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  13. Willowway

    Willowway Well-Known Member

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    I think Phil makes a point - since Vancouver, no US man has consistently caught fire and built the momentum that makes repeated news outside the skating community during a good part of this Olympic cycle. Evan is not news (not as far as I'm concerned) but he stays in the spotlight because there's no one to replace him in the broader public awareness.

    Many of the US men have their fans and certainly their strengths but no one keeps putting it together to dominate or even better, no two men keep it together long enough to form a great sustained rivalry. Phil is talking about public perception and the void that has been created in US men's skating over the last four years - every time we get hopeful and nominate someone to step into that space, he doesn't seem to sustain the wins over a longer term or is very choppy in achievement.

    It will change, the skating environment always changes (I've been watching for over 50 years); either some of our promising men will really step up or other names will come along. I remember when no one had ever heard the name Weir or Lysacek or even Scott Hamilton. It's always interesting to watch it change, slowly or quickly, but change from Olympic cycle to cycle.

    In terms of change, if you recall it wasn't that very long ago that the Russians had everything but a great bench of women - now...
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2013
  14. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    After winning World bronze in 2005 and 2006, Lysacek dropped to 5th in 2007 and missed 2008 Worlds. Weir was the reigning Worlds bronze medalist going into 2009. Lysacek had the momentum going into Vancouver, with the 2009 title and 2009 GPF gold while Weir was inconsistent, missing 2009 Worlds, but he wasn't dominant throughout the cycle. Obviously no US Man came into this cycle with Lysacek's credentials, and with the two strongest US men bowing out of most of it, it's been an open field in which US Men were all over the map. Only Abbott gets the kind of PCS consistently where he can be in the high teens in TES and top six in PCS and very close to the leaders in PCS.
  15. judiz

    judiz Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it's fair for Hersh to compare Jason and Max with Evan, it took many years for Evan to reach the top step on the senior podium, Jason and Max should be given the same chance to grow. After all it took Evan 7 years to become senior national champion, Max did it on his second try.
  16. SkateFan66

    SkateFan66 Active Member

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    If you read the entire article, and not just the excerpt that Sylvia posted, Hersh stated that the current US men skaters were either: (1) very inconsistent, or (2) "too new to the senior level to have establish a tract record." The later category would include Max, Jason, and Joshua. Those skaters, if they remain healthy, have the ability to have very successful competitive careers.
  17. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    Willowway entire post:

    :respec:
  18. judiz

    judiz Well-Known Member

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    thanks for letting me know what else was said, I tried but couldn't get the article to open on my Cellphone.
  19. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ITA with both of you, although I don't think its fair to put Evan down or compare him with anyone else, or pump him up as the sole talented and determined U.S. man to have consistently accomplished things internationally pre or post Vancouver Olympics. There have been other accomplishments by a bevy of talented U.S. male skaters on the junior and senior levels. I do also agree in essence with Willoway's post. However, Phil Hersh often speaks in general and simplistic terms. Figure skating is a cyclic sport and things are always in constant flux. Its not an easy sport to participate in, to follow, or to write about. Phil is taking a particular generalized approach that is more of the moment and covers complexities with a broad brush. There's absolutely nothing wrong with stating the fact that Evan is part of the conversation because no other U.S. man has been able to step up in a forcefully consistent way internationally over the past four years. But there are complex reasons for that as well, having to do with USFS selection process, individual athlete challenges, the problematic quad and the current CoP landscape. ITA that in particular, Jason and Max are still young up-and-comers so they haven't had the chance to fully show what they are capable of achieving over the long haul.

    ITA that Jason Brown's fp was not "very poor," at SA. Jason was clearly nervous at SA in the fp and he made uncharacteristic errors as a result, but it was not a horrible skate. As a positive, he learned from that experience and he shined his next opportunity out on the GP at TEB. :) I am glad that Jason has had the opportunity to develop at a steady pace, and I hope his joy, his learning process and his steady improvement continue. If that includes an opportunity to be on the Olympic team in 2014, great. If it doesn't, I'm sure he'll be even more inspired to continue to work hard toward his goals and enjoy the process every step of the way. I'm also very happy for Adam Rippon that he's made a strong comeback this season with his new coach, that actually started at Nationals 2012. Adam has one of the best (perhaps the best) free programs of all the men this season. I wish Adam much continued success, and to all the U.S. hopefuls, I wish they will have a great experience in Boston. As always, the chips will fall the way they fall.

    The U.S. has a wealth of talent among the men which is complicated, IMO, by the antiquated rules and processes that govern the sport. The athletes need better training strategies and frankly more competitive opportunities. I don't think we should blame the athletes for the fact that it's impossible to gain international experience and build momentum when it's so difficult to get to Worlds every year. I guess the thing is to not get discouraged and to struggle mightily, to persevere, to believe, to triumph or to learn in defeat, and to just accept what happens when it happens. And then to decide again what you want, and what you're willing to give and to do for what you want.

    Phil Hersh plays his role, and he writes his opinions and that's fine (agree or disagree) but what Phil Hersh says or believes, and of course what any of us say or believe (whether based on statistics or personal predictions) does not determine what exists in the heart of any athlete.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2013
  20. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

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    So when is D day, the last date that Evan can do what he needs to do to compete at US Nationals?
  21. Kathryn2001

    Kathryn2001 Member

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    Coming out of lurkdom here about Evan and the large probability he will not be in Boston. I have figured for months now that he has to keep his name out there and keep the media feeling he'll be in Boston and a good bet for the O team. They need him for all their Sochi hype as the reigning gold medalist. No way can he give any indication that he won't be competing for the O team. So it's all in the media and the promotion, not exactly the same but not so different either than when Kwan was seemingly going to compete in 2006 Torino. I never thought she'd make it (even though she wanted to) and was even more sure she wouldn't actually skate when her coach, Rafael, never showed up in Torino. Just my thoughts.
  22. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

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    So Evan is willing to risk and get injuries and undergo serious operations for what you state, Kathryn. Plus pay coaching fees to Frank and choreographers. I really find that difficult to believe.

    Re Raphael, I believe there are other times he has been a no show at competitions, other than Torino.
  23. Visaliakid

    Visaliakid Well-Known Member

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    This coming Tuesday, Dec. 10th. <Source: Philip Hersh - Chicago Tribune>
  24. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    In my opinion the situation is totally different, Kwan went to every world champsionship after SLC and won it once, and went to every US nationals and won. She was monitored and given an Olympic spot and was at the practices in Turin.

    Evan stopped competing after Vancouver and has never competed again. I think the situations are completely different. Kwan may well have been too injured to be in with a real shot of competing before 2006, however, she had competed and remained competitive for the entire period between the Olympics until the Olympic season.
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  25. Kwantumleap

    Kwantumleap New Member

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    Exactly. Maybe this is more akin to Cohen than Kwan. Sasha won a medal at the games in 06, then basically disappeared from the competitive scene until Nationals in 2010 in hopes of an Olympic berth.

    Looking at the big picture from a skating historian's point of view, I can already imagine the debates that will ensue over the better Olympic comeback: Boitano or Lysacek? I seem to recall that Boitano at least competed in Skate America in 93 in the lead up to that season's Olympics. He had an unforgettable spread eagle, but I digress.
  26. Yazmeen

    Yazmeen Well-Known Member

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    I don't always agree with Phil, but that article was spot on. I know that many posters on this board simply cannot stand Evan, they hate his style, his attitude, everything about him because he doesn't skate in a manner they find pleasing. However, as Phil stated, no matter how beautifully Jeremy can skate and touch hearts, how artistically outstanding Johnny Weir is, they didn't consistently skate clean and well time after time, especially on the international stage, whereas Evan usually did and usually pulled out a podium placement if not a outright win in major competitions. (Before anyone starts nattering on about Grand Prixs, ad nauseum, look at the 2 majors that count in the minds of non-fans: Evan has 3 world medals, one gold and a OGM, Johnny has one World bronze, and Jeremy has simply not skated to his ability in both competitions). And the current crop of US men also cannot be counted upon to skate clean programs despite their talents (Adam, Ross, Richard) or are new and still developing consistency and style (Max, Jason, Joshua).

    For years, we always had one striking and consistent male skater that captured our attention and consistently performed well - Scott, Brian, Todd, and most recently Evan. Now, we don't. You don't have to love Evan's skating; hell, even Evan himself states he was not naturally talented and had to work harder to make up for that. But the simple fact is Evan is the last solid consistent male skater the US has had. Yes, I've been harping on the word "consistent" here, and I meant to do that. The biggest problem the US men have right now aside from some being very "green," is that the rest cannot consistently put together 2 solid programs to climb up the ranks and onto the podiums regularly. And no matter how beautifully they skate, if they can't keep it together in the big events, they will not receive the awards and recognition that many think they deserve. You have to look no further than Jeremy Abbott to see how that inconsistency can hurt a skating career.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2013
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  27. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    ^^^
    My thoughts, as well.
  28. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Since Lysacek never made it to a competition, I'm not sure if it can even be said he made a comeback. He just talked about one.
    I would love to see him show up in Boston, but I don't see it happening. Still, I find it very disappointing he didn't skate a single competition in this comeback. Maybe he should have thrown in the towel sooner, he might have that commentator spot instead of Weir (whose comeback did include actual competitions).
  29. CynicElle

    CynicElle Well-Known Member

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    Well said, Yazmeen. I know Evan is pretty feckin' far from the most artistic skater out there, but when he was at his peak I rarely worried about him completely falling apart; he stepped his game up enough to win the World gold, the GPF final, and the Olympic gold. There's something to be said for skaters who can be relied on to keep it together and stay on their feet during the toughest competitions, and I think that was what Hersh was getting at.

    That being said, I dearly wish Evan had continued to compete regularly after 2010 if he really wanted to get to Sochi. Taking off nearly the entire four years between Olympics doesn't seem to work out too well for most skaters, and I sure as heck don't see him pulling out a miracle comeback at this late date.
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  30. judiz

    judiz Well-Known Member

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  31. her grace

    her grace Well-Known Member

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    I think he stays in the spotlight because of his past results, not because no other current man has great results. To compare, from the last summer Olympics, Liukin and Johnson got a ton of media attention pre-olympics even though the U.S. team was doing great without them (reigning World team and all-around champion). The media and sponsors know few pay attention to Olympic sports in non-Olympic years, so they go with past champions for their name recognition.
  32. Sparks

    Sparks Well-Known Member

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    FTR - Rafael wasn't in Torino because he was having visa problems.
  33. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Lysacek *had* been one of the two best US skaters in the last Olympic cycle, during which time he won the only two titles most people care about, Worlds and Olympics. In this Olympic cycle, the only thing he's been consistent about are announcing comebacks and not competing, whether due to injury or a dispute with USFS. He's four years older and has suffered serious injuries. The Olympics are not in his back yard where he's considered a hero by the general public that pays attention to his sport. He's got guts, but he hasn't been in competition outside Dancing with the Stars since Vancouver. Nor was he in the 12 Days of Sochi NBC hype video.

    The years of coming up through the ranks and winning title after title or trading them ended for US Men when school figures were abolished, and, even in the school figures years, the US Men took far longer than the Ladies to recover from the 1961 crash: it was 24 years between David Jenkins' win in 1960 until Scott Hamilton's in Sarajevo, and school figures ensured that win and his run of dominating his Olympic cycle at Worlds, the last man to do so, although Browning and Plushenko came close.

    The only US man to consistently medal post figures was Eldredge (in the cycle leading to Nagano) with a WC title and other podium finishes. The dominant skaters post-figures were Browning, Stojko, Yagudin, and Plushenko and recently Chan. Russian dominance blocked Weiss and Goebel, and until Lysacek won Worlds in 2009, it had been 13 years, Eldredge's in 1996, since a US Man had won a World Championship. In the eleven Olympics from 1948 (Button) to 1988 (Boitano), US Men had been off the Olympic podium twice, in 1972 and 1976. Between 1992 and 2010, US Men were off the podium in three of six Olympics. US Men won two Olympic medals between Boitano's and Lysacek's wins: Wylie's surprise silver and Goebel's bronze.

    Johnny Weir is the only US Man to win three US titles in a row since Boitano at the end of the school figures era.

    Kwan's consistency and name recognition spoiled everyone post school figures, but she, too, had formidable competition and never won more than two WC's in a row, although she was in the mix for a long, long time. Since 1988, US Men have been more :wuzrobbed than :cheer2: It's only recently that US Ladies have caught up.
  34. hydro

    hydro Well-Known Member

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    I seem to recall an interview where he said he was en-route the day Kwan made the announcement in Torino.
  35. Yazmeen

    Yazmeen Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, judiz, I corrected that. Slip of the fingers!
  36. aliceanne

    aliceanne Well-Known Member

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    I think with all the skaters mentioned in this thread the spirit is willing but the body is not. True, making a successful comeback and medaling in international competition as Plushenko and Kim have is extremely rare, but when your identity is tied to your sport it is hard to move on.

    In Evan's case I'm sure there are a lot of people with a vested interest in seeing him compete again whether he does well or not.
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2013
  37. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    To each their own opinion. IMO, Evan deserves kudos for his hard work and determination. Nothing anyone has to say diminishes his accomplishments in the tough realm that is competitive fs. But same token just b/c Evan has that prestigious OGM, should not overshadow nor diminish the significant impact and accomplishments of Evan's closest U.S. rivals, Jeremy Abbott and Johnny Weir. Abbott is not a GPF champion, multiple GP series medalist, and a 3-time U.S. champion because he lacked consistency "time after time." If Johnny was as inconsistent as many seem to believe, he would not be a 3-time U.S. champion, multiple GP series medalist and World bronze medalist.

    What ultimately has hurt Abbott IMO is his tendency toward over-thinking and self-doubt which has happened in huge moments that negatively impacted his career trajectory. Johnny admittedly suffered from competitive nerves that hurt him most dramatically in his Torino fp. But the bigger factors that affected both Jeremy and Johnny IMO was not having the solid political backing and iconic legendary coach that Evan fortunately benefited from having.

    Frankly, Evan did not skate perfectly at 2005 Nationals or Worlds, and he was lucky politically at both events as an up-and-comer heavily favored by his federation. Evan skated poorly in Torino sp and made a comeback in fp, which was hugely played up in the media, cementing Evan being characterized as a dependable competitor. Of course, the opposite happened to Johnny. I doubt all the post Torino sp press speculation about Johnny 's sexuality was helpful to him either. Nor was JW's decision to change his fp 2 weeks before the Olympics b/c of critical comments.

    Going into Vancouver as U.S. champion with two kick-ass programs perhaps should have given Jeremy the edge and more confidence, but clearly Evan was U.S. Fed favorite, while Johnny and Jeremy were taken for granted. Case in point: at U.S. Nats 2008, Evan made sloppy errors in his fp, but still won in a debatable victory over Johnny. At 2011 Nats, Jeremy skated brilliantly in sp, but was placed behind Ryan B. Then Jeremy made sloppy errors in his fp but despite his international success, his superior talent, and veteran status, he was completely left off the World team by .19, the measure by which the U.S. men lost international status and competitive momentum as well as individual and collective confidence.

    Evan benefited from the quad not being a requirement in Torino, plus Plush's hissy fit as a direct result of Evan's win helped change the men's competitive landscape -- another factor heavily impacting U.S. men.

    Again none of this diminishes Evan's accomplishments. His enthusiasm, single-minded focus and hard work enabled him to take advantage of good luck and political favor. Evan was a warrior right time, right place. ETA: No doubt if the cards were in Evan's favor agewise, he'd ace the quad too and be in the Sochi mix. But same could be said for Johnny if age and opportunity were in his favor. Johnny certainly also had the striking attention-grabbing talent that helped add to U. S. men's competitive presence on the World scene circa 2004 - 2010.

    BTW kwanfan1818, thanks for the historical perspective in your #273 post.
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2013
  38. Kelvster

    Kelvster Well-Known Member

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    V. insightful post, aftershocks. U are one objective commentator :)

    i tend to go all snarky when it comes to Evan v Johnny v Jeremy. But deep inside I know that they all have their strengths and each is to be deeply respected :)
  39. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    Many thanks to kwanfan and aftershocks for their well-reasoned comments.
  40. Yazmeen

    Yazmeen Well-Known Member

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    Also my thanks to both of them, the comments were definitely insightful. I certainly wasn't trying to diminish either Johnny or Jeremy's talents; it was just unfortunate that those talents didn't hit their max on the Worlds and Olympic stage as Evan's hard work more than talent did (I'm not a Jeremy fan, but my heart broke for Johnny in Torino with the free skate especially).