For Evan Lysacek, countdown to Sochi Games is on

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Jun 5, 2013.

  1. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, like his skating or his personality or not, Evan deserves lots of cred for his determination and fight. There are things I would and have critiqued about him, and likely will continue to but it's very easy to stand on the sidelines and tear down a champion athlete's desire to still compete when the odds seem against them. Venus Williams comes to mind in this respect. I re-echo that I'd totally prefer seeing Evan, Stephane, Joubert, Johnny, Jeff B and others on a pro circuit, but at this point that wish is a bit of pie-in-the-sky.

    It is what it is and what will be will be. We all have our opinions, but why not see what there is to appreciate and salute as well as to critique?


    ETA:

    And, ho, ho! Speaking of the impossible, here's Johnny's take:

    Johnny's World: The Impossible Dream

    http://fcnp.com/2013/06/06/johnnys-world-the-impossible-dream/

    Hmmm, somewhat a mixed message? Johnny appears to be talking about not being all that good at singing and cooking, and about how hard it was in the beginning to prove himself as a figure skater. I thought he might also be reflecting upon the humongous odds of trying another comeback in the arena that has passed him and possibly his contemporaries Evan, Joubert, et al, bye bye. Is he saying, "Drop it, cuz you'll just look silly." Is he preparing himself for the inevitable?
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2013
  2. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    I'm aware of this because of the NBC fluff during 2013 nationals. He speaks like someone who has clips of him doing a 4/3 come from 2007! Now the scoring system punished any mistakes on a quad very severely so that was motivation enough to stop trying quads by then came all the injuries. But now you have clean 2 or 3 quad long programs that come after a sp with a quad! All these issues go together that may harm his sochi effort. Even in us nationals.
     
  3. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    If we look at that statement (in bold) it is not absolutely incorrect. Fact: he did win OGM without a quad. And it is true that jumps are not the only judged elements in figure skating. This can be said of other elements too.

    Perhaps at that time, Lysacek and his coach had sized up the competition that if he skated clean and executed all his other element well, he stood a chance in winning a medal, and he did. I think had the system at that time, 'encouraged quads' as it does now, Plushenko would have beaten Lysacek and perhaps Lambiel might have medalled too. Also, in 2010, not many skaters in the top 10 had consistent quads. Lysacek, as it seems to some of you, 'is a little more circumspect' because the state of competition now compared to 2010 is different. We know the top five in World 2013 all have quads! If Lysacek has been practicing quads before 2010, he may have mastered them by now?
     
  4. misskarne

    misskarne #408

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    The main issue I have with all this talk that Lysacek has a quad is that after a layoff it would be extremely hard to master a skill that you never had in the first place. Going from a sketchy sometimes-quad, to retirement, to a quad in the short, and a quad and quad-triple in the long...well, excuse me for being sceptical...
     
  5. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    Does landing a 4T/3T successfully in competition count as never having had it in the first place?

    For all of the "Lysacek killed the sport in Vancouver, blah, blah, blah" in Torino, half the men had quads, and ten of them placed below Lysacek in the FS; he was 3rd. The two above him with quads were Plushenko and Buttle, who rotated but fell on his.

    Lysacek was 10th in the SP, but not for lack of a quad: he fell on his 3A and doubled the flip. Had he landed both jumps at base, he would have been 5th in the SP, and that's with no change to PCS. Any PCS bump and/or +GOE on those elements, and he could have passed Joubert as well.

    If he speaks about how clean performances without a quad make a skater competitive, he speaks from years of experience as someone who both landed quads and didn't throughout his career.

    I also don't understand how asserting Lysacek works harder or even hardest means the other skaters don't work hard, as if all skaters work the same. It clearly means on the ice, and if he was able to finance his skating without working many hours or living in his car, it meant he took the opportunities and privileges he had and used them to the fullest. Having Frank Carroll tell him he worked hard means that Carroll was reinding him that he had done the work, as Joyce Di Donato would say, and he could rely upon it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2013
  6. SkateFan66

    SkateFan66 Active Member

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    IIRC, Lysacek successfully landed a quad at 2006 WC, 2007 Nationals, 2007 4CC, 2008 Nationals, & 2009 4CC. He took the quad out for 2009 WC because of the stress fracture in his foot. After the stress fracture healed, he limited practice of the quad; therefore, the jump was not consistent enough to attempt at the Olympics. (Under the current rules, he probably would have tried the quad at the Olympics b/c the scoring system now awards more points for 'attempting' a quad than it does for landing some triple jumps)
     
  7. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Of course few skaters in the top 10 had consistent quads. They were barely ever doing them! That includes people like oda lysacek and weir who had attempted quads but all of whom took it Out because the Olympics was too important for quad attempts. No points for lysacek at 2010 us nationals, 1 point for weir in 2008 worlds, Oda's coach was morozov and knew that because he had a contender it'd be smart for him not to do quads. Brezina in every practice tried quads but never in competition. Chan's plans originally had one but was dropped partly due to injury but also probably because it was stupid.

    Like I said before figure skating is more than one jump but bringing the quad up doesn't mean you want to abolish spins steps music etc like lysacek was saying!
     
  8. taf2002

    taf2002 flower lady

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    Although I never liked his style I didn't mind him winning without a quad. It would have been worse if Plushenko had won with nothing but a quad. (IMO Dai should have beat both of them but I digress.) If he can legitimately win a place on the US team, more power to him. And I don't think it would be that hard to do so. However, I don't want to see him repeat as winner - in fact I rarely celebrate a repeat win - other than Dick Button & Irina Rodnina I don't think anyone who has repeated deserved either the 1st or the 2nd win. I don't know about the ones before my time though.
     
  9. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    What have you done with caseyedwards? :eek:
     
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  10. misskarne

    misskarne #408

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    Please note: I said MASTER, not HAD. He had it, but it never seemed like a comfortable jump for him.
     
  11. SkateFan66

    SkateFan66 Active Member

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    You stated that, after the layoff, it would be hard for Lysacek to master a skill (the quad) that he never really had. Thus, you did state that Lysacek never really had the quad. However, prior to the stress fracture, Lysacek frequently included the quad in his programs. I previously listed some of Lysacek's successful quad attempts. You can add to that list successful quads landed at 2007 Skate America, 2007 Cup of China, and 2007 Grand Prix Final. He did not have success with the quad in the 2008 Grand Prix events, as he struggled with several jumps that season. However, later that season he landed his last 4T in competition at 2009 4CC. Lysacek took the quad out before the 2009 WC because of the stress fracture. After the stress fracture, during the 2009-10 season, Lysacek did not practice the quad enough to get it consistent enough for competition. Just because Lysacek did not attempt a quad at the 2009 WC or 2010 Olympics, some people believe that he never had a quad jump.
     
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  12. morqet

    morqet Well-Known Member

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    I'm more interested to see if he's finally learned to stop both pre & under rotating his triple axels...
     
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  13. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Not to speak for misskarne but she did say he had a "sketchy sometimes-quad," so I read her to post to say that the skill he had never mastered was a consistent quad, not a quad in general. Her post didn't deny that he had ever landed one, which I agree with you, would be unfair.

    Generally I do think it's highly unlikely for someone to come out after a long layoff and be landing jumps they didn't land consistently in their prime. I don't think Shen & Zhao upgraded their throws or sbs jumps in 2010, and Gordeeva & Grinkov did not do a triple toe in 1994 (which they had been inconsistent with until their retirement in 1990). For the same reasons, I don't expect Weir or Lysacek to start landing consistent quads in both programs now, nor for Plushenko to have a consistent quad sal, which he has been trying out.
     
  14. misskarne

    misskarne #408

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    Thankyou, that's what I meant.
     
  15. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Hmmm, so you need an interpreter? Does that mean you haven't mastered the ability to be clear and say what you mean the first time!? Tsk, tsk. ;)


    :lol: I doubt any skater would describe a quad as a "comfortable jump." No matter how gorgeous Hanyu's and Javi's quads often look, I'd be surprised if they feel all that comfortable trying to ace quad-intensive programs.

    In any case, no matter how wonky Lysacek's 3-axels usually are, the times he was successful landing quads, he looked pretty d**n good doing them, at least to my eyes.
     
  16. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

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    Just curious, in the years Witt won the gold, who would you have had be the gold medalists? I'm assuming, of course, that she was during your time.
     
  17. dardar1126

    dardar1126 Well-Known Member

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    Twitter:

     
  18. FSfan107

    FSfan107 Well-Known Member

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    Also from Twitter ( via Phil Hersh):

     
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  19. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    ^^^
    Glad to hear this.
     
  20. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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  21. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

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    For Evan fans what do you think he would be happy with this season. I think making the U.S Olympic team and coming top 6 at the Games would be a great result but I am wondering what you think Evan would be happy with.
     
  22. dots

    dots Well-Known Member

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    I would think making the Olympic team is a no brainer. However, grabbing a medal (of any color) is probably why he decided to comeback.
     
  23. frillit

    frillit Member

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    Evan would be ectastic with a top 5 at the Games, and moderately happy with a top 8. I am pretty sure even he knows a medal is a huge long shot. A bronze would be a bigger thrill for him than his 2010 gold.

    Making the team would be a relief as even that isnt certain if he returns.
     
  24. Jaana

    Jaana Well-Known Member

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    I think that if he competes in Sochi and skates his best, he has every reason to feel happy (what ever the result).
     
  25. A.H.Black

    A.H.Black Well-Known Member

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    I agree.
     
  26. query5

    query5 New Member

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    i can see evan making the team.
    i can see max and evan making the team.

    as far as other men skaters i think, richard, ross, jeremy, joshua , jason, alexander johnson, have a shot. brandon mroz. who else can possible compete with brian, patrick, michael, denis, yuzuru as well as the other japanese men of takiko kozuka, tahiko mura, nobunari, florent, maxim, evengy, arthur, konstantin-whichever russian man makes the team, javier, kevin. the
    u.s.a man would have to not only beat them indiviual but as well as team. i think some can do some of the indiviual but team no i cant see a few beating them.
    making the medal podium for individual isn't going to be easy possible a top 4-5 finish more realistic for u.s.
    i think evan has a chance of medaling easier than max despite not skating competivively for 4 years, possible no quad.
    if he come back like yuna and skates real well, he is the reigning olympic champ.
    i think max will have to beat evan at skate america to have a shot at keeping the u.s. title plus a shot at a medal at theolympics,

    the u.s. men are good but not great. they need to be better than than was last year all around in jumps, pcs. can they make it up in a year? who knows, improve that much, who knows.
    i hope so.
     
  27. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Active Member

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    I think the 2 spots for the U.S men are pretty open. The only one with a firm heads up is Max, but I dont think he is a lock even. It isnt like Wagner, Gold, Davis & White, Chock & Bates, who are all locks or so it sems.
     
  28. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    Only lock to make the US team are Davis & White.
     
  29. centerpt1

    centerpt1 Active Member

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    I'd say Evan's a lock.(if he makes it to Nationals without injury) After that, one of either Miner or Aaron.
     
  30. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

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    Sasha Cohen was coming off a silver in Torino and she did not qualify for Vancouver. I don't think Evan is a lock. We haven't seen him since 2010, who knows...