Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Jun 5, 2013.
Sochi would be Evan's third Olympics; he finished fourth in Torino.
Are you serious or just having a very bad memory??? Lysacek tried to come back for 2012-13 season, but unfortunately got injured. And already a year before that he planned for a comeback, but had to cancel it because of sponsor/management problems. I definetely don´t see his comeback as a sudden idea.....
Coaches like to talk up their skaters. 'Evan works harder than anyone else' is probably just an expression on 'how hard Lysacek works' or 'Lysacek is one of the most hard working skater'. Why take it so personally? Whilst I think some skaters who have well-to-do families to support their full time training, it is not their fault that some skaters have to work to pay for their training. In some countries, talented skaters are sent overseas for training and all expenses paid by their federations. They are even luckier. Shall we fault them for their luck?
With all due respect, I think Evan wants publicity more than to actually compete at the OG. As they say, all publicity is good publicity. He milked his return last year for all it was worth, so why not do it again?
I think it highly unlikely that he will actually get to Nationals and qualify for the Olympics. If he does, he'll need at least two quads to compete with the top guys and I can't see that happening. Sure, the top guys might bomb - but even so, I don't yet believe Evan will make it to the OG.
When is Weir going to throw his name into the hat? Or, is he too busy competing for cooking titles on the Food Channel?
If your beef is about technical standards (at the time) in skating, you need to direct your anger more at the ISU, not Evan. He and his team found a way to work the system to maximize points w/o a quad because of the rules the ISU had in place that season.Again, I'm pointing this out as an outside observer and someone who in this quadrennial is no longer really an Evan fan. I liked him leading up to 2010 but I've moved on and don't care if he comes back or not, probably because he hasn't really shown us anything since 2010.
And frankly, if you were this obsessed with everything a work colleague, girlfriend/boyfriend, acquaintance said or did, you'd be close to a Restraining Order
So he used the point system well? That doesn't mean anyone wanted the abolition of the sport when they brought up him not doing a quad in a negative way. He's a public figure and if he wants to say people wanted the sport abolished than that means people can say they don't like that and go to an online CHat and ask him about it! the isu did change the rules and they were right to do but he still said what he said.
I think the polarizing thing about Evan has largely been due to him holding contrary positions on things.
In 2008, he felt that the quad was an essential part of a program. In 2009, he won Worlds without a quad. In January 2010, he said the quad was essential to winning the Olympics and that whoever skated clean with a quad at the Olympics would win. A few days later, he splatted on the quad in in his Nationals LP, and of course, by the Olympics, he said winning was about much more than just one jump. By 2013, he said quads could give skating X games appeal. Now he is a little more circumspect.
For Lysacek, it seems that his opinion on how important the quad is as an element of figure skating varies depending on how well he is landing it in practice at that moment. It’s rather transparent, IMO, and a cause of amusement and eye-rolling for some skating fans. Others discuss the quad from more of a historical perspective (how the previous couple of champions all had it, and how rule changes have brought it back), but his take is, IMO, more self-centric.
Someone like Joubert also annoys fans by talking too much about the quad (I have certainly seen criticism that he focuses on it to the detriment of the rest of his skating, or that he is just a jumping machine), but at least he puts his money where his mouth is and tries one in nearly every competition.
Then there were his comments about his masculinity, apparently to distance himself from Weir. He was only comfortable wearing black, but those black costumes had some pretty flamboyant sequins and feathers, which was at best, very amusing, and at worst, made him look like a hypocrite. He was presented as a “great straight hope” which is something that has always bothered many skating fans (think Michael Weiss, Elvis Stojko), even though his persona was hardly macho. This article and this one touch on what I’m trying to say. Just this weird cognitive dissonance thing he seemed to have going on.
Finally, there's (which misskarne touched upon) the notion that Lysacek was this complete skater along the lines of Buttle, Lambiel, or Takahashi, whereas I think Lysacek’s 2008-2010 programs were very much using the Plushenko formula of big music punctuated by jumps, not too many transitions, and a big flaily footwork sequence at the end. I don't mind this style (which is why I liked both Lysacek and Plushenko as skaters) but I preferred earlier Lysacek with his Rachmaninoff, Singing in the Rain, and Espani Cani programs. By the end of his career, it was basically pick old skating warhorse and copy and paste onto last year’s choreography. Many skaters do this, I don’t begrudge him, but I also don’t think he should have been held up as some example of a “new system skater” who makes up for a lack of difficult jumps with amazing component marks or spins and steps (that'd be Lambiel, and I don't even like Lambiel that much). I remember Scott Hamilton going on and on about how Lysacek is about what’s “on the ice” and Plushenko is “in the air” as if their skating styles were so radically different and Plushenko hardly deserved to be called a figure skater (well, it’s true that Lysacek’s triple axel was completed “on the ice” and Plushenko’s were done “in the air” ). Even if Lysacek didn’t participate directly I’m sure this colored opinions on him.
As for the “hard work” thing, he certainly participated in many fluff pieces about this issue, and I don’t blame him. I tend to think it’s either that he doesn’t have a very compelling backstory or he doesn’t care to delve into his backstory so the default storyline about him is that he “works really hard” which indeed, is not unique among elite athletes! It’s sort of like Flatt and her being really smart and going to an Ivy League school; the same is true for many US figure skaters, but Flatt came to prominence as a National Champion and there really wasn’t anything else to talk about besides that, so she had fluff pieces showing how hard she studies.
Evan did a clean long program with a quad toe/ triple toe at 07 nationals http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8zJXcviX0I
He has a quad for this year from the practice sessions I have seen on film. Evan has a steadiness that many of his competitors don't have. This will serve him well and I expect his DWTS experience will greatly enhance his artistic side.
Imho With or without a quad he will be near the top at his competitions this coming season.
FWIW, here's Dave's and Jenny's take re (GP assignments) and the Lysacek/ Weir comeback possibilities:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wox91rf7CPc starting about 5:40 re Lysacek and Weir discussion
Dave's mention of Frank Carroll having a new favorite young Asian skater is intriguing. Who is she?
My take is that some posters here are slamming Evan right and left because they are absolutely terrified that he will actually make a serious comeback and potentially contend for both the US Olympic team and an Olympic medal.
He is not breaking any rules in attempting this comeback, he is not being given any gifts, he is not being given chances that should go to other skaters (I too, had to laugh at how it's "wrong" for Evan to come back now but fine for Plushenko to essentially do the same thing in 2010...). If you don't like Evan, fine, he's not everyone's cup of ice tea. That said, however, he has the right to compete in the Grand Prix, etc. because he was the OGM in the last cycle. That rule wasn't made especially for him. He may do it, he may not, but whining about how he shouldn't be doing this doesn't change anything. At this point, he intends to compete. If he realizes by Skate America that he doesn't have the right stuff for another Olympic go, I think that will be the last we see of him. There is nothing wrong with him trying nor with him generating a little publicity around it. Considering that the other men potentially in contention to make the US Olympic team have a fairly remote chance of medaling at all in Sochi up against Chan, Takahashi, Hanyu, Fernandez, etc., I don't blame Evan one damned bit for at least taking his shot here.
Yeah, like his skating or his personality or not, Evan deserves lots of cred for his determination and fight. There are things I would and have critiqued about him, and likely will continue to but it's very easy to stand on the sidelines and tear down a champion athlete's desire to still compete when the odds seem against them. Venus Williams comes to mind in this respect. I re-echo that I'd totally prefer seeing Evan, Stephane, Joubert, Johnny, Jeff B and others on a pro circuit, but at this point that wish is a bit of pie-in-the-sky.
It is what it is and what will be will be. We all have our opinions, but why not see what there is to appreciate and salute as well as to critique?
And, ho, ho! Speaking of the impossible, here's Johnny's take:
Johnny's World: The Impossible Dream
Hmmm, somewhat a mixed message? Johnny appears to be talking about not being all that good at singing and cooking, and about how hard it was in the beginning to prove himself as a figure skater. I thought he might also be reflecting upon the humongous odds of trying another comeback in the arena that has passed him and possibly his contemporaries Evan, Joubert, et al, bye bye. Is he saying, "Drop it, cuz you'll just look silly." Is he preparing himself for the inevitable?
I'm aware of this because of the NBC fluff during 2013 nationals. He speaks like someone who has clips of him doing a 4/3 come from 2007! Now the scoring system punished any mistakes on a quad very severely so that was motivation enough to stop trying quads by then came all the injuries. But now you have clean 2 or 3 quad long programs that come after a sp with a quad! All these issues go together that may harm his sochi effort. Even in us nationals.
If we look at that statement (in bold) it is not absolutely incorrect. Fact: he did win OGM without a quad. And it is true that jumps are not the only judged elements in figure skating. This can be said of other elements too.
Perhaps at that time, Lysacek and his coach had sized up the competition that if he skated clean and executed all his other element well, he stood a chance in winning a medal, and he did. I think had the system at that time, 'encouraged quads' as it does now, Plushenko would have beaten Lysacek and perhaps Lambiel might have medalled too. Also, in 2010, not many skaters in the top 10 had consistent quads. Lysacek, as it seems to some of you, 'is a little more circumspect' because the state of competition now compared to 2010 is different. We know the top five in World 2013 all have quads! If Lysacek has been practicing quads before 2010, he may have mastered them by now?
The main issue I have with all this talk that Lysacek has a quad is that after a layoff it would be extremely hard to master a skill that you never had in the first place. Going from a sketchy sometimes-quad, to retirement, to a quad in the short, and a quad and quad-triple in the long...well, excuse me for being sceptical...
Does landing a 4T/3T successfully in competition count as never having had it in the first place?
For all of the "Lysacek killed the sport in Vancouver, blah, blah, blah" in Torino, half the men had quads, and ten of them placed below Lysacek in the FS; he was 3rd. The two above him with quads were Plushenko and Buttle, who rotated but fell on his.
Lysacek was 10th in the SP, but not for lack of a quad: he fell on his 3A and doubled the flip. Had he landed both jumps at base, he would have been 5th in the SP, and that's with no change to PCS. Any PCS bump and/or +GOE on those elements, and he could have passed Joubert as well.
If he speaks about how clean performances without a quad make a skater competitive, he speaks from years of experience as someone who both landed quads and didn't throughout his career.
I also don't understand how asserting Lysacek works harder or even hardest means the other skaters don't work hard, as if all skaters work the same. It clearly means on the ice, and if he was able to finance his skating without working many hours or living in his car, it meant he took the opportunities and privileges he had and used them to the fullest. Having Frank Carroll tell him he worked hard means that Carroll was reinding him that he had done the work, as Joyce Di Donato would say, and he could rely upon it.
IIRC, Lysacek successfully landed a quad at 2006 WC, 2007 Nationals, 2007 4CC, 2008 Nationals, & 2009 4CC. He took the quad out for 2009 WC because of the stress fracture in his foot. After the stress fracture healed, he limited practice of the quad; therefore, the jump was not consistent enough to attempt at the Olympics. (Under the current rules, he probably would have tried the quad at the Olympics b/c the scoring system now awards more points for 'attempting' a quad than it does for landing some triple jumps)
Of course few skaters in the top 10 had consistent quads. They were barely ever doing them! That includes people like oda lysacek and weir who had attempted quads but all of whom took it Out because the Olympics was too important for quad attempts. No points for lysacek at 2010 us nationals, 1 point for weir in 2008 worlds, Oda's coach was morozov and knew that because he had a contender it'd be smart for him not to do quads. Brezina in every practice tried quads but never in competition. Chan's plans originally had one but was dropped partly due to injury but also probably because it was stupid.
Like I said before figure skating is more than one jump but bringing the quad up doesn't mean you want to abolish spins steps music etc like lysacek was saying!
Although I never liked his style I didn't mind him winning without a quad. It would have been worse if Plushenko had won with nothing but a quad. (IMO Dai should have beat both of them but I digress.) If he can legitimately win a place on the US team, more power to him. And I don't think it would be that hard to do so. However, I don't want to see him repeat as winner - in fact I rarely celebrate a repeat win - other than Dick Button & Irina Rodnina I don't think anyone who has repeated deserved either the 1st or the 2nd win. I don't know about the ones before my time though.
What have you done with caseyedwards?
Please note: I said MASTER, not HAD. He had it, but it never seemed like a comfortable jump for him.
You stated that, after the layoff, it would be hard for Lysacek to master a skill (the quad) that he never really had. Thus, you did state that Lysacek never really had the quad. However, prior to the stress fracture, Lysacek frequently included the quad in his programs. I previously listed some of Lysacek's successful quad attempts. You can add to that list successful quads landed at 2007 Skate America, 2007 Cup of China, and 2007 Grand Prix Final. He did not have success with the quad in the 2008 Grand Prix events, as he struggled with several jumps that season. However, later that season he landed his last 4T in competition at 2009 4CC. Lysacek took the quad out before the 2009 WC because of the stress fracture. After the stress fracture, during the 2009-10 season, Lysacek did not practice the quad enough to get it consistent enough for competition. Just because Lysacek did not attempt a quad at the 2009 WC or 2010 Olympics, some people believe that he never had a quad jump.
I'm more interested to see if he's finally learned to stop both pre & under rotating his triple axels...
Not to speak for misskarne but she did say he had a "sketchy sometimes-quad," so I read her to post to say that the skill he had never mastered was a consistent quad, not a quad in general. Her post didn't deny that he had ever landed one, which I agree with you, would be unfair.
Generally I do think it's highly unlikely for someone to come out after a long layoff and be landing jumps they didn't land consistently in their prime. I don't think Shen & Zhao upgraded their throws or sbs jumps in 2010, and Gordeeva & Grinkov did not do a triple toe in 1994 (which they had been inconsistent with until their retirement in 1990). For the same reasons, I don't expect Weir or Lysacek to start landing consistent quads in both programs now, nor for Plushenko to have a consistent quad sal, which he has been trying out.
Thankyou, that's what I meant.
^^ Hmmm, so you need an interpreter? Does that mean you haven't mastered the ability to be clear and say what you mean the first time!? Tsk, tsk.
I doubt any skater would describe a quad as a "comfortable jump." No matter how gorgeous Hanyu's and Javi's quads often look, I'd be surprised if they feel all that comfortable trying to ace quad-intensive programs.
In any case, no matter how wonky Lysacek's 3-axels usually are, the times he was successful landing quads, he looked pretty d**n good doing them, at least to my eyes.
Just curious, in the years Witt won the gold, who would you have had be the gold medalists? I'm assuming, of course, that she was during your time.
Also from Twitter ( via Phil Hersh):
Glad to hear this.
International Figure Skating https://www.facebook.com/pages/International-Figure-Skating/278550292537?fref=ts
Evan Lysacek plans to kick off his Olympic season at the senior B event in Salt Lake City this fall. Seems like an eternity since we last saw him in a competitive arena.
For Evan fans what do you think he would be happy with this season. I think making the U.S Olympic team and coming top 6 at the Games would be a great result but I am wondering what you think Evan would be happy with.
I would think making the Olympic team is a no brainer. However, grabbing a medal (of any color) is probably why he decided to comeback.
Evan would be ectastic with a top 5 at the Games, and moderately happy with a top 8. I am pretty sure even he knows a medal is a huge long shot. A bronze would be a bigger thrill for him than his 2010 gold.
Making the team would be a relief as even that isnt certain if he returns.
I think that if he competes in Sochi and skates his best, he has every reason to feel happy (what ever the result).
i can see evan making the team.
i can see max and evan making the team.
as far as other men skaters i think, richard, ross, jeremy, joshua , jason, alexander johnson, have a shot. brandon mroz. who else can possible compete with brian, patrick, michael, denis, yuzuru as well as the other japanese men of takiko kozuka, tahiko mura, nobunari, florent, maxim, evengy, arthur, konstantin-whichever russian man makes the team, javier, kevin. the
u.s.a man would have to not only beat them indiviual but as well as team. i think some can do some of the indiviual but team no i cant see a few beating them.
making the medal podium for individual isn't going to be easy possible a top 4-5 finish more realistic for u.s.
i think evan has a chance of medaling easier than max despite not skating competivively for 4 years, possible no quad.
if he come back like yuna and skates real well, he is the reigning olympic champ.
i think max will have to beat evan at skate america to have a shot at keeping the u.s. title plus a shot at a medal at theolympics,
the u.s. men are good but not great. they need to be better than than was last year all around in jumps, pcs. can they make it up in a year? who knows, improve that much, who knows.
i hope so.
I think the 2 spots for the U.S men are pretty open. The only one with a firm heads up is Max, but I dont think he is a lock even. It isnt like Wagner, Gold, Davis & White, Chock & Bates, who are all locks or so it sems.
Only lock to make the US team are Davis & White.
I'd say Evan's a lock.(if he makes it to Nationals without injury) After that, one of either Miner or Aaron.
Sasha Cohen was coming off a silver in Torino and she did not qualify for Vancouver. I don't think Evan is a lock. We haven't seen him since 2010, who knows...
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