Fixing the Canadian Ladies Program

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by algonquin, Feb 11, 2012.

  1. pat c

    pat c Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this. It seems we use a scatter gun approach to sports/arts for instance instead of listening to the kid who might say, no I don't want to play y, I'd rather do x instead. In theory letting your kids try everything is great. In practice, it burns the kid out and the parents.

    It depends on where you are. Where I'm from, a lot of volunteer hours are spent keeping rinks going. So 6:00 a.m. practices don't happen, so you fight for the hours from 3:00 to 11:00, and if you have a canskate program, you want early hours ie right after school or early evening. Of course minor hockey wants the same hours, as well as public skating and weekends are out in small town Canada because of hockey tournaments which are big money makers and public skating. Everyone tries their best, but there is only so many hours available.

    Good, there have been kids who have fallen through the cracks because they live too far away from a major centre. But it makes me wonder what Kurt Browning and his parents did, because Caroline/Rocky Mtn, Alberta isn't a mecca for high level figure skating.
     
  2. Cant Skate

    Cant Skate Member

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    Uh....while creeping my daughters Facebook page today, Kaetlyn posted a video of a triple lutz triple toe combo. Just sayin' ..... for enquiring minds who want to know!
     
  3. 4rkidz

    4rkidz plotting, planning and travelling

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    Lots of Canadian girls actually have triple lutz from 14 year olds and up.. but that's when they are practicing.. the bigger issue is helping our kids get what they do in practice into the competition - it's not about the talent :blah:
     
  4. Dave of the North

    Dave of the North Well-Known Member

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    That's good news! Was it on the correct edge and not cheated? Maybe it will be ready to try at Junior worlds...
     
  5. Cant Skate

    Cant Skate Member

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    You saw my user name right? Lol.....I have no idea, I'm just a fan :) She was on her feet and it was landed strong but it all looks good to me if they are not on their butts! My daughter said it was the first time she'd landed the combo so I wouldn't count on it being ready for worlds but apparently she's been doing the triple lutz in her short :) (its so handy to have a little spy in the house!)
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2012
  6. Spazactaz

    Spazactaz New Member

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    Her triple lutz is great! Her 3lz+3t is clean too. :)
     
  7. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

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    Gabrielle Daleman is on the initial entry list for Challenge Cup (March 8-11 in The Hague), so that's good news!
     
  8. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

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    This. I think part of the problem is the focus on winning in the early stages. Girls are held back, or hold themselves back, so they can win. They do this because the rewards of winning at a lower level far outweigh the rewards of being in the bottom half of a higher level. I remember a few years back the mom of a really talented girl saying that her daughter was going to stay pre juv for another year rather than moving up to juv a year early. The coach decided this because she would have a better chance of making the select team if she was on the podium in pre juv rather than off the podium in juv. She also didn't do her harder combos in competition because they wanted her to skate clean. Talk about backward thinking! Boys, IMHO, don't have this problem because there are so few in the early levels that when they move up they still have a good shot at the podium.
     
  9. JanetB

    JanetB Well-Known Member

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    Could you post a link please
     
  10. minx

    minx New Member

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    The Cost. $$$$$$$$ Seriously.

    I see lots of talented little kids. Sometimes the kids LOVE it so much that the parents can't help but to fund the obsession. But there is a point, there is always a point where the parent has to look at their kid, and their bank balance and decide whether they can continue well before outside funding is ever available.
     
  11. made_in_canada

    made_in_canada INTJ

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    This argument can be made for lots of different sports and activities. Anything pursued at a high level (sport, music, dance, etc...) is expensive. Though it is a barrier, I don't think that has anything to do with why Canadian women don't have depth.
     
  12. Subway

    Subway New Member

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    That doesn't explain why Canadian men are World champions much more frequently than Canadian women, especially when fewer men are in the sport to begin with, decreasing the probability of a guy with the talent and funding to reach the highest level. But they do, more frequently than the women.
     
  13. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

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    Maybe it's because so few Canadian ladies DO go on to become champions. It's become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
     
  14. DarrellH

    DarrellH New Member

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    Perhaps the better women go into pairs and dance, more than the better men do? In the U.S. it seems to be that you go into pairs if you can't cut it in singles.
     
  15. Jot the Dot Dot

    Jot the Dot Dot Headstrong Buzzard

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    Judge them by how much bacon they eat, and how often their sentances end with "Eh?"
     
  16. Rafter

    Rafter Well-Known Member

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    Why did she not do a 3lutz at Canadians if it is so great?
     
  17. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

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    ShawTVEdmonton uploaded this news piece on Kaetlyn Osmond on Feb 17: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skMI9IcDFG4

    Osmond: "In both programs we added a new jump that I haven't actually done in competition yet - it's my triple Lutz - so... really looking forward to trying that. And then we also added a triple-triple into my long."
     
  18. JanetB

    JanetB Well-Known Member

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    It could be that the 3t/3t and the 3 lutz started to gel at the same time and they didn't want to put 2 new to competition elements in her programs at one time.
     
  19. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

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    There was an interesting segment last night on the CBC coverage of Junior Worlds. It was called something like, searching for the next Canadian sweetheart. Tracy Wilson made some interesting comments about why we aren't as successful with the women as with the men. One of the things she stressed was that we need to support girls as they go through puberty. We need to not jump all over them and call them head cases when they have a bad season. The changes in their bodies take time to adjust to and they need confidence building not tearing down while they are trying to adjust. The other comment she made was that in some other countries they are fine with taking forty girls and working them hard, and seeing who comes out the other end. They don't worry about the ones that fall off during the process. She said that as a society, Canadians want to support and encourage all skaters to get reach their potential. This could mean that resources are spread more thinly than in a system where only the top few get support.
    It was an interesting segment and is probably available to watch on CBC.ca
     
  20. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

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    Here's the direct link to the 10-minute segment titled "The Big Picture: Legacy of Ladies Skating: Examining the next generation of Canadian female figure skaters" (not geoblocked): http://www.cbc.ca/sports/figureskating/video/#id=2205235358
    Doug Leigh, Jennifer Robinson, and Josée Chouinard are among those interviewed and Tracy Wilson and Pj Kwong contribute commentary afterwards.
     
  21. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

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    Reposting from the Challenge Cup thread in Kiss and Cry:
    Yes, positive news for Daleman who won the silver medal in Junior Ladies (85.42 in FS, 132.48 total score) and she rotated the 3Lz (-1 GOE) in the SP.
     
  22. nadioso

    nadioso Member

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    With regards to Erin's post

    Skate Canada has always filled their ladies slots over the years. They have never had max JGP slots ( they only had 4 this year )

    It is true that SC has left mens, dance and pairs slots blank over the years but they never could do this with the ladies.

    Where SC has gone wrong is staying with perennial failures for several seasons. Skaters like Kang, Grenier and Najarro got a lot of JGP assignments with no good results. These skaters got 3 or 4 good seasons of JGP experience each without a single solid result from any of them.

    In previous seasons , it could be argued that the younger talent did not step up over the summer so that these older veterans who usually skated well at nationals but consistently failed internationally would get the assignments by default.

    This season however, SC made a big mistake in sendiing Najarro when there were in fact younger ladies ( Daleman for example ) who did step up in the summer and did show readiness for the JGP.

    In the 2012 JGP season Canada will have six slots. Since Charbonneau and Najarro have aged out, we can look forward to a bunch of exciting new faces.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2012
  23. fan

    fan Well-Known Member

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    who does everyone expect to see filling the 6 spots? I see (ok, I'd like to see)
    2 x - Daleman
    1 x - Seguin
    1 x - Jurome
    1 x - Chartrand (I hope!)
    1 x - Mallet or Rheault, depending on who has the 3 Flip (required SP jump)

    I'd like to see them send Dunley, but it wont happen.

    At the same time, I can still see them sending Purich out too.
     
  24. Habs

    Habs Well-Known Member

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    I will be curious to see if Kaetlyn Osmond competes as a junior or a senior next year.
     
  25. nadioso

    nadioso Member

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    Mallet only has the next season where she can do JGP and she still has not gone past the triple toe , triple salchow stage. She turns 18 this June. So unless she shows tremendous improvement, giving her a JGP is not sound strategy.

    Rheault turns 17 this April and the triple toe is her only reliable triple.

    I would rather see Dunley get one than either Mallet or Rheault. She has far more upside ( consistent toe and salchow and has 4 JGP seasons left ).I

    Unfortunately Rheault and Mallet are high on SC's radar ( they were both listed as substitutes for the JGP last season ) when the far more impressive ( and much younger ) Daleman did not even get considered.
     
  26. Erin

    Erin Well-Known Member

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    Given how many spots SC left blank last year in other disciplines, I would never assume they will use all the slots.

    I'm pretty sure we have max JGP slots in ladies at least once - for sure after Rochette was 5th (behind only Japanese and American skaters) at Jr. Worlds. I also think we were first in line to pick up extra spots after Charbonneau was 6th at Jr. Worlds, but chose not to use them. Plus, we should be taking more advantage of events like Triglav, Challenge Cup (I'm glad Daleman was sent this year at least), and other spring internationals.

    I agree that this has been an big issue. With only 4 slots this past year, I can somewhat understand the challenge for SC, but I think that after Najarro's bomb at Jr. Worlds, she really didn't need another chance.

    Agreed about the new faces. I can never remember the rules about who gets to pick up extra spots - is there any chance we could pick up extra slots if other countries don't use theirs?

    Me too. At first, I had strongly wanted her to get out on the senior GP, but I'm leaning towards JGP now. She's not high enough on the SB list or in the World standings to get an automatic invite to another country's event and wouldn't be high up on the sub list. She'd likely only get Skate Canada and a Senior B and without a high finish, wouldn't get much for ISU points. For that reason, I think that JGP is probably better for her to be able to build up ISU points, especially if she qualified for the final. Then she could still do the senior championships later in the season if she were to qualify and hopefully not be buried as one of the low-ranked skaters (or at least be able to build up points to get ahead for the following season).

    The downside is that would cut some other talented skaters out of the JGP. It's a tough call, unless Canada is able to pick up slots from other countries. I think more young skaters need to be sent out to Senior B events as well - if SC wants to give someone like Rheault international experience, send her to a Sr. B instead of taking up JGP slots. Charbonneau could also benefit from one, she actually had a decent Canadians. Unfortunately, SC doesn't seem to bother with any Sr. B except Nebelhorn and canned Thornhill as a Sr. B last year.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2012
  27. nadioso

    nadioso Member

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    I won't go back to Rochette's days as the rules for JGP slots were very different in those days.

    When Charbonneau finished 6th , Canada was the 4th highest country.

    Extra slots can be had when one of the top 12 countries ( those that get 6 or more JGP spots ) fail to use all their slots. Only the 4th and 5th countries even have a right to extra slots.

    Yes Canada would have first dibs at those slots. Unfortunately none are to be had from the top 3 countries that year (Japan , US and Russia). So we might have been able to get a spot from a country that had 6 or 7 slots. Would be interesting to see if countries 5-12 used all their slots. BTW countries 5 and 6 which also had 7 slots guaranteed were Sweden and Germany. Countries 7 - 12 ( 6 slots ) were France, Estonia , Switzerland , Turkey , Finland and Denmark. I would look most at the countries with 6 slots other than Finland and France as I think slots could have been picked up there.

    This year as Skate Canada is only the 7th best country ( hence six slots ) , they won't have any chance for extra slots.
     
  28. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

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    It would be interesting if SC made one of the summer competitions a mandatory competition for JGP assignments. A different competition could be used for each of the disciplines to spread things around a bit, but it would be a show up if you want to challenge for a spot scenario. They could do some sort of average with the skater's score a Nationals and then give the spots out based on the highest scores. Perhaps there could be a bonus for landing the mandatory solo triple in the short and some sort of system to account for the skater's age - ie, older skaters with only one JGP season left would require a higher score than someone with 3 or 4 seasons left.
     
  29. nadioso

    nadioso Member

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    In ice dance we already unofficially have that as usually all the junior ice dance couples will show up at Minto. The pairs are a little less centralized but they generally all compete in Quebec or Thornhill.

    It would be much harder to do this for the ladies because of the increased numbers involved.

    However, having event finals in all disciplines in all competitions would go a long way to centralizing the system without any problems.

    It is important to have is finals in all events with large fields that have to be separated into multiple groups. That way the best skaters from different groups will be forced to face off against each other. Right now our best skaters constantly compete in weak fields . This has to be implemented at all levels and competitions across Canada starting at pre-juvenile. That way our most talented skaters get to face off against each other often and create the environment where they push each other. Only Thornhill from pre-novice to junior has event finals in this situation.

    I do think the age thing should be considered. That would help prevent the perennial international failures ( ie Kang , Grenier and Najarro ) from clogging up the spots. Better to give it to the younger ones even if they are a little behind the older ones as it is clear in these cases the older ones are likely going nowhere and the younger ones can use the experience better in the long term.
     
  30. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

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    There was some momentum when Joannie Rochette was 5th and Lauren Wilson was 8th at 2002 Junior Worlds, earning 3 spots for 2003. Unfortunately, none of Signe Ronka, Amanda Billings or Meghan Duhamel were able to finish top 12 at 2003 Jr. Worlds, bringing Canada back down to 1 spot for 2004 (which in fact went to Senior National Champion Cynthia Phaneuf).

    Since then, it's been an unfortunate cycle of Junior Champions not really following through into seniors.