Fixing the Canadian Ladies Program

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by algonquin, Feb 11, 2012.

  1. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Reposting from the Challenge Cup thread in Kiss and Cry:
    Yes, positive news for Daleman who won the silver medal in Junior Ladies (85.42 in FS, 132.48 total score) and she rotated the 3Lz (-1 GOE) in the SP.
  2. nadioso

    nadioso Member

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    With regards to Erin's post

    Skate Canada has always filled their ladies slots over the years. They have never had max JGP slots ( they only had 4 this year )

    It is true that SC has left mens, dance and pairs slots blank over the years but they never could do this with the ladies.

    Where SC has gone wrong is staying with perennial failures for several seasons. Skaters like Kang, Grenier and Najarro got a lot of JGP assignments with no good results. These skaters got 3 or 4 good seasons of JGP experience each without a single solid result from any of them.

    In previous seasons , it could be argued that the younger talent did not step up over the summer so that these older veterans who usually skated well at nationals but consistently failed internationally would get the assignments by default.

    This season however, SC made a big mistake in sendiing Najarro when there were in fact younger ladies ( Daleman for example ) who did step up in the summer and did show readiness for the JGP.

    In the 2012 JGP season Canada will have six slots. Since Charbonneau and Najarro have aged out, we can look forward to a bunch of exciting new faces.
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2012
  3. fan

    fan Active Member

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    who does everyone expect to see filling the 6 spots? I see (ok, I'd like to see)
    2 x - Daleman
    1 x - Seguin
    1 x - Jurome
    1 x - Chartrand (I hope!)
    1 x - Mallet or Rheault, depending on who has the 3 Flip (required SP jump)

    I'd like to see them send Dunley, but it wont happen.

    At the same time, I can still see them sending Purich out too.
  4. Habs

    Habs Well-Known Member

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    I will be curious to see if Kaetlyn Osmond competes as a junior or a senior next year.
  5. nadioso

    nadioso Member

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    Mallet only has the next season where she can do JGP and she still has not gone past the triple toe , triple salchow stage. She turns 18 this June. So unless she shows tremendous improvement, giving her a JGP is not sound strategy.

    Rheault turns 17 this April and the triple toe is her only reliable triple.

    I would rather see Dunley get one than either Mallet or Rheault. She has far more upside ( consistent toe and salchow and has 4 JGP seasons left ).I

    Unfortunately Rheault and Mallet are high on SC's radar ( they were both listed as substitutes for the JGP last season ) when the far more impressive ( and much younger ) Daleman did not even get considered.
  6. Erin

    Erin Well-Known Member

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    Given how many spots SC left blank last year in other disciplines, I would never assume they will use all the slots.

    I'm pretty sure we have max JGP slots in ladies at least once - for sure after Rochette was 5th (behind only Japanese and American skaters) at Jr. Worlds. I also think we were first in line to pick up extra spots after Charbonneau was 6th at Jr. Worlds, but chose not to use them. Plus, we should be taking more advantage of events like Triglav, Challenge Cup (I'm glad Daleman was sent this year at least), and other spring internationals.

    I agree that this has been an big issue. With only 4 slots this past year, I can somewhat understand the challenge for SC, but I think that after Najarro's bomb at Jr. Worlds, she really didn't need another chance.

    Agreed about the new faces. I can never remember the rules about who gets to pick up extra spots - is there any chance we could pick up extra slots if other countries don't use theirs?

    Me too. At first, I had strongly wanted her to get out on the senior GP, but I'm leaning towards JGP now. She's not high enough on the SB list or in the World standings to get an automatic invite to another country's event and wouldn't be high up on the sub list. She'd likely only get Skate Canada and a Senior B and without a high finish, wouldn't get much for ISU points. For that reason, I think that JGP is probably better for her to be able to build up ISU points, especially if she qualified for the final. Then she could still do the senior championships later in the season if she were to qualify and hopefully not be buried as one of the low-ranked skaters (or at least be able to build up points to get ahead for the following season).

    The downside is that would cut some other talented skaters out of the JGP. It's a tough call, unless Canada is able to pick up slots from other countries. I think more young skaters need to be sent out to Senior B events as well - if SC wants to give someone like Rheault international experience, send her to a Sr. B instead of taking up JGP slots. Charbonneau could also benefit from one, she actually had a decent Canadians. Unfortunately, SC doesn't seem to bother with any Sr. B except Nebelhorn and canned Thornhill as a Sr. B last year.
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2012
  7. nadioso

    nadioso Member

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    I won't go back to Rochette's days as the rules for JGP slots were very different in those days.

    When Charbonneau finished 6th , Canada was the 4th highest country.

    Extra slots can be had when one of the top 12 countries ( those that get 6 or more JGP spots ) fail to use all their slots. Only the 4th and 5th countries even have a right to extra slots.

    Yes Canada would have first dibs at those slots. Unfortunately none are to be had from the top 3 countries that year (Japan , US and Russia). So we might have been able to get a spot from a country that had 6 or 7 slots. Would be interesting to see if countries 5-12 used all their slots. BTW countries 5 and 6 which also had 7 slots guaranteed were Sweden and Germany. Countries 7 - 12 ( 6 slots ) were France, Estonia , Switzerland , Turkey , Finland and Denmark. I would look most at the countries with 6 slots other than Finland and France as I think slots could have been picked up there.

    This year as Skate Canada is only the 7th best country ( hence six slots ) , they won't have any chance for extra slots.
  8. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

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    It would be interesting if SC made one of the summer competitions a mandatory competition for JGP assignments. A different competition could be used for each of the disciplines to spread things around a bit, but it would be a show up if you want to challenge for a spot scenario. They could do some sort of average with the skater's score a Nationals and then give the spots out based on the highest scores. Perhaps there could be a bonus for landing the mandatory solo triple in the short and some sort of system to account for the skater's age - ie, older skaters with only one JGP season left would require a higher score than someone with 3 or 4 seasons left.
  9. nadioso

    nadioso Member

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    In ice dance we already unofficially have that as usually all the junior ice dance couples will show up at Minto. The pairs are a little less centralized but they generally all compete in Quebec or Thornhill.

    It would be much harder to do this for the ladies because of the increased numbers involved.

    However, having event finals in all disciplines in all competitions would go a long way to centralizing the system without any problems.

    It is important to have is finals in all events with large fields that have to be separated into multiple groups. That way the best skaters from different groups will be forced to face off against each other. Right now our best skaters constantly compete in weak fields . This has to be implemented at all levels and competitions across Canada starting at pre-juvenile. That way our most talented skaters get to face off against each other often and create the environment where they push each other. Only Thornhill from pre-novice to junior has event finals in this situation.

    I do think the age thing should be considered. That would help prevent the perennial international failures ( ie Kang , Grenier and Najarro ) from clogging up the spots. Better to give it to the younger ones even if they are a little behind the older ones as it is clear in these cases the older ones are likely going nowhere and the younger ones can use the experience better in the long term.
  10. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

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    There was some momentum when Joannie Rochette was 5th and Lauren Wilson was 8th at 2002 Junior Worlds, earning 3 spots for 2003. Unfortunately, none of Signe Ronka, Amanda Billings or Meghan Duhamel were able to finish top 12 at 2003 Jr. Worlds, bringing Canada back down to 1 spot for 2004 (which in fact went to Senior National Champion Cynthia Phaneuf).

    Since then, it's been an unfortunate cycle of Junior Champions not really following through into seniors.
  11. algonquin

    algonquin Well-Known Member

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    Well, this must get better next year or there will only be one spot for 2012.
  12. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

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    I think we are just going to have to resign ourselves to having one woman for 2012-2013. I can't see anyone stepping up to the plate and delivering when it's needed.

    That said, I feel bad for Amelie and I still think she had an awful skate -- at least compared to how I've seen her skate at other comps.
  13. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    I don't follow Canadian ladies much...just out of curiosity, why don't more top Canadian girls have the harder jumps? Is it training them late, not competing enough with those jumps or something else?
  14. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    I'm bumping this thread up because I don't think it's worth starting a new/separate thread in Kiss and Cry for this very early season competition.

    The 2012 Ursula Lehming Scarboro Skate competition in Scarborough, ON was held this past weekend (April 27-29) -- top 2 in the Senior Ladies free skate:
    1 Alaine Chartrand Nepean SC 90.05
    2 Gabrielle Daleman Hilltop SC 77.92
    FS protocols: http://sfsc.on.ca/ScarboroSkate/2012PDF/swfde.pdf
  15. clarie

    clarie Well-Known Member

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    I honestly think it's a hopeless situation, being such a small country population-wise with no-one to carry the banner so to speak. We can't expect Joannie to rescue Canadian ladies....she's paid her dues.
  16. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    Small country population-wise doesn't seem to ever hurt the Canadian men. And it doesn't seem like it's a lack of girls getting into skating that is the problem either.
  17. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Skate Canada press release titled "Up-and-comers set to attend Skate Canada National Development Camp" in Toronto, May 4-6, 2012: http://www.skatecanada.ca/AboutUs/NewsDetails/tabid/2157/sni[2797]/1707/language/en-US/Default.aspx

    15 of the 24 invited are women:
    Larkyn Austman, 14, Coquitlam, B.C. [N2]
    Alaine Chartrand, 16, Prescott, Ont. [S9]
    Roxanne Cournoyer, 14, Sorel-Tracy, Que. [J4]
    Gabrielle Daleman, 14, Newmarket, Ont. [J1]
    Madelyn Dunley, 15, Milton, Ont. [N1]
    Alexandra Gagnon, 18, Chicoutimi, Que. [S10]
    Zoe Gong, 14, Ottawa, Ont. [N7]
    Britanny Guiseppe Clarke, 13, St-Jean-sur-Richelieu, Que. [N11]
    Shelby Hall, 14, Frobisher, Sask. [N12]
    Jayda Jurome, 14, Kelowna, B.C. [N-wd; won Challenge]
    Sandrine Martin, 14, Montreal, Que. [N5]
    Lisa Nasu-Yu, 15, Ottawa, Ont. [N9]
    Kaetlyn Osmond, 16, Marystown, Nfld. [S3]
    Haley Sales, 15, Kelowna, B.C. [N3]
    Julianne Séguin, 15, Longueuil, Que. [J3]
  18. Rock2

    Rock2 New Member

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    Nice jump list from Chartrand and wow, Daleman is rotating a 3F and 3L, two jumps she didn't have this year. I dunno...watching Daleman, I really think she's going to go somewhere. She has skating skills, musicality and athleticism. I can't say she'll be the greatest, but I really believe she'll be a legitimate factor on the Canadian senior scene when all is said and done.

    Osmond will be the really interesting story to watch. If you only consider what's best for her, I'd give her two JGPs and another JW's to get some points and ready her for seniors. The problem is she's arguably ready now, and more importantly Lacoste and Phaneuf can no longer be Plan B's for each other. I think if we see Osmond in seniors this year that will be a signal that SC is readying itself to chack Amelie and Cynthia as soon as they can if they both maintain their current dreadful standard.
  19. spikydurian

    spikydurian New Member

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    Thanks Sylvia. Interesting vid and question. Canada has a great tradition for skating and I think the question is how to motivate these young talented kids to figure skating to elite levels? Certainly, I think figure skating IS an expensive and lonely sport unlike team sports like hockey and soccer. You can find a highly prodigious kid but without the 'resources' (ie. the cutting and polishing) there is no way this kid will become a sparkling diamond.
  20. danafan

    danafan Canadian ladies über

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    Well Osmond got Skate Canada along with Lacoste, third spot TBA. No non host picks for the Canadian ladies on the grand prix - this must be a first.
    Osmond moving up is a good choice IMO. I hope they have a skate off for the third spot.
  21. Erin

    Erin Well-Known Member

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    I still have mixed feelings - with only one GP spot at a tough event, Osmond is not going to get very much in terms of ISU points on the GP. Skate Canada better send her to some Senior B events so she can rack up some points. Otherwise she is going to be buried in the World rankings for a while. That said, I think that she's the best skater we've got, so it's good to get her some senior experience. Plus it opens up more spots on the JGP for skaters like Daleman, Chartrand, Seguin, etc.

    I was rewatching Jr. Worlds the other day and as I watched Osmond, I really wished there was some way SC could have put her on the World team. Her score from Jr. Worlds, unadjusted, would have put her 13th at Worlds. If you take into account that senior programs have the choreographed spiral sequence as an additional element and add that to her score, it puts her around 11th. If she did a triple flip (her best jump) in the short instead of a double lutz, that puts her score in 8th, ahead of Marchei. I realize that you can't compare across competitions and her PCS score might have dropped, as it's sometimes judged more generously in juniors than seniors, but her overall score without accounting for the extra element or the flip in the short was still 8 points higher than Lacoste. Plus we would have been getting a talented young skater some experience.

    I think it would have been difficult to put Osmond on the World team unless SC had said up-front that they were going to wait until Jr. Worlds. And if she's the real deal, she'll show it this coming season. I really hope that the consistency she magically found last season continues this coming year.
  22. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    I am glad they are giving Phaneuf her much needed ass kick by not immediately giving her Skate Canada.

    Let's face it - at this stage, Osmond is the best bet by Canada for a top 10 finish at Sochi, barring a Rochette comeback.
  23. Rafter

    Rafter Well-Known Member

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  24. Habs

    Habs Well-Known Member

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  25. danafan

    danafan Canadian ladies über

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    Gabrielle Daleman skates with a lot of attack too. I think our juniors will do well on the JGP this year. Séguin got off to a great start.
  26. danafan

    danafan Canadian ladies über

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  27. algonquin

    algonquin Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, thanks for posting.
  28. Erin

    Erin Well-Known Member

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    I agree - glad to see her fight to get in the double toe after struggling with the lutz. Great to see both Canadian ladies out on the JGP so far attempting both the triple lutz and triple flip in the short program...and doing reasonably well with them, too (i.e. not hail mary attempts). It will be interesting to see if Daleman goes for the flip in the short next week, too.

    It appears that Skate Canada is focusing on the new generation based on the way the senior assignments have gone, and with Osmond, Chartrand, Seguin, and Daleman, there's actually a decent starting point with the younger ladies. There were some other bright spots last season, particularly Jayda Jurome in novice at the Challenge, so hopefully that pool can expand.
  29. danafan

    danafan Canadian ladies über

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    Daleman was very successful with her triple flip in both programs at Thornhill.
    Erin and (deleted member) like this.
  30. triple_toe

    triple_toe Well-Known Member

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    Chartrand's JGP debut was much more impressive than Seguin's IMO. Good job. Chartrand needs to work on the flip though, it's really on the outside edge.
  31. hohoho

    hohoho Member

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    I actually found Chartrand better than Seguin. Not by much. Mostly in the spins. But good to see SC going with the younger skates and that these skaters are showing the "never give up and go for everything attitude". Overall good debuts by Seguin and Chartrand.

    Has Jurome recovered totally from her injury. She didn't seem to skate that well t BC Summerskate?
  32. shutterbug

    shutterbug Well-Known Member

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    In the SP she attempted a 3lutz-2toe combo and a 3flip and fell on both. Landed a nice 3lutz-2toe in the FP, but not much else. Looked to me like both programs were still quite new.
  33. danafan

    danafan Canadian ladies über

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  34. flowerpower

    flowerpower Well-Known Member

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    ^
    Good for her! Love to see the Canadian junior ladies going for it!
  35. Erin

    Erin Well-Known Member

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    :cheer2: Great skate for Chartrand! And she actually met the TES minimum for Worlds with that program - if she can clean up the SP at the next event, perhaps we will have someone other than Osmond who has met the criteria.

    Chartrand and Seguin have both met the minimum TES scores for Jr. Worlds in both programs and Chartrand also met the 4CC minimums.
  36. hohoho

    hohoho Member

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    Question is, will Chartrand get a second JGP to try and get the TES minimum? Even if she does get it, would you send her to Worlds over Osmond? Chartrand may get the TES score, but she is struggling with the PCS score.
  37. Erin

    Erin Well-Known Member

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    Chartrand has been assigned to Croatia, at least provisionally. I think that she'll probably keep the assignment. Most of the skaters on the sub list for Croatia are not doing both the triple lutz and triple flip, aside from Seguin (already has a second assignment to Slovenia) and Daleman (probably will get a second assignment to Germany if she does reasonably well in Austria). And if Skate Canada decides to pull the second assignment for someone to give one of the subs a chance, I think that Chartrand deserves a second assignment over Seguin - both had 7th place finishes, but Chartrand was in a tougher field and had a higher score.

    I'm not saying that Chartrand should be sent to Worlds over Osmond, it's way too early to be making those kind of predictions. But it would be nice to have more than one option - what if Osmond were injured, became inconsistent, etc, etc. The more skaters that meet the minimum, the better IMO.
  38. hohoho

    hohoho Member

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    Well SC in their wisdom have assigned Shelepen (Russia) to the TBA for SCI. What a slap in the face to Canadian Ladies Skaters. That is 4 spots not used for Canadian Senior skaters - SCI, Finlandia, Ondrej Nepela, and SLC. What a joke SC is becoming.
  39. chantilly

    chantilly Active Member

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    I think to fix it, they need to send them to train with coaches in US or Japan. There are at least five girls in each country who could beat any of our top two. But honestly we have never been great in the ladies since the early eighties. Even those with great potential were a disappointment. Joannie was the only bright light and she was very inconsistent. Her win at the Olympics was a bit controversial even. Although she did have more difficult transitions, choreography etc. and I believe her next rival was downgraded. I do deserve she should have won the bronze after all. But I can understand the confusion as to why she did. But I would need to watch it again side by side to really judge accurately.
  40. hohoho

    hohoho Member

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    Why send them to US and Japan when some of those skaters train or used to train in Canada.