Fixing the Canadian Ladies Program

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by algonquin, Feb 11, 2012.

  1. sk8girl

    sk8girl Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2011
    Messages:
    339
    No problem - I just expanded on the points you already made. :)

    Unfortunately, I still have no explanation for why our girls can't jump. I wonder if it's partly related to the fact that we have so many little arenas and little skating clubs everywhere? There must be a lot of talented Canadians girls out there, but maybe a lot of them are falling through the cracks because they are skating at a little local club somewhere and they're not getting the coaching and ice time, etc. that they need to develop their talent? (Nothing against coaches at small clubs, NOT AT ALL, but there is usually a point where the very talented ambitious skaters will "move on" to a bigger club with higher level coaches and more ice time, etc.) A lot of that comes down to "talent identification", which I know Skate Canada is trying to improve on, but it has to be tough when there are SO many clubs and SO many coaches involved -- how do you make sure that future Rochettes aren't falling through the cracks?

    Guys in figure skating tend to get noticed, at all levels, because there are so few of them. If a section wanted to monitor all the guys in their section, they could do it and make sure that nobody is falling through the cracks. With the girls, it's pretty much an impossible job because there are so many of them.
  2. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2008
    Messages:
    276
    Easy simple solution, Japan and Canada FS Trade agreement.

    Canada ships a team of Dance to Japan, Canada has too many depth there, in return, Japan ships two ladies to Canada. :D
  3. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,862
    I think maybe, based on history, coaches look past the ladies and instead focus on men, pairs and dance when spotting talent for the future.
  4. Subway

    Subway New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2011
    Messages:
    348
    Maybe they take women for granted. Part of the publicity around Bryce Davison's new coaching job reported that male participation in figure skating had taken a new low in Canada. I'd had an impression it was already pretty low. I have an overall impression of Canada in particular just obsessed with getting men involved in figure skating as part of the audience or skating themselves. Because there are so many women already. But at the elite level Canadian men are doing fine and women aren't, yet Skate Canada doesn't seem to prioritize that. A great female champion can really put butts in the seats.
  5. 4rkidz

    4rkidz GPF Barcelona here I come

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2001
    Messages:
    9,184
    epic FAIL for SC - part of the problem is treating the girls the same as the other groups (men, dance, pairs) when in reality you need to treat them differently which is the first point.. - in addition the worse thing to do was to put our national champion who had limited confidence to begin with into an even more pressured situation :rolleyes: You don't attempt to resolve skater's mental strength problems by putting them in a situation that is even more stressful.. IMHO Skate Canada should have been spending this time before worlds building up our national champion not tearing her down..

    The reason Joannie became a strong champion was because she put the time into getting help for mental strength training - and not from Skate Canada..

    We don't actually have a problem with lack of talent - go and watch our top Novice, Juniors and Seniors on the practise ice and guess what - they do have triples but the issue is putting them into competition because there is so much stress and not enough supports especially when they are dealing with growing bodies.

    The competition format needs to simulate more what these girls are going to face and by not sending them to internationals we are shooting ourselves in the foot. In the States and Russia you have a ton of internal competition - which we don't have so we either have to create it or support a system whereby these girls can face those similar situations. :blah:
    mag and (deleted member) like this.
  6. Rafter

    Rafter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2001
    Messages:
    9,941
    It's almost unfixable to me. Worlds will be a lost cause because there's no way Lacoste will place in the top 10 with all those popped jumps.

    Skate Canada should have left both Lacoste and phaneuf at home and sent Osmond to both jr worlds and sr worlds.
  7. nadioso

    nadioso Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2004
    Messages:
    230
    It is not that we lack talent but our ladies do not have the triples for the most part. This season is the first season in a while when our top juniors and novices even ATTEMPTED a triple other than a toe or salchow. And yes at least this year some of those jumps were landed. At least I have some hope for the top novices and juniors which I have not said in a long time.

    If they truly had the jumps but struggled with the pressure, you would at least see some reasonable attempts even if they ended in splats. The fact that you don't see attempts ( even in warmup ) shows they don't have those jumps.

    If Skate Canada was smart , they would invest more in the Osmonds and Dalemans of the world. Any future we have is in our much younger talent.

    I wished that Charbonneau and Najarro ( both who age out of junior internationals next season) got senior B assignments instead and the likes of the younger Osmond and Daleman got the JGPs instead. Purich only got an assignment due to Najarro's failure in her JGP this season.

    The fact is it is unlikely that Najarro was going anywhere internationally given her failures over 4 years of JGPs and a failure to make the FS at junior worlds. Charbonneau had one good season on the junior circuit ( where she finished 6th at JW ) but has been inconsistent since.

    This has been a lost year for international youth development for the ladies in Canada.
  8. pat c

    pat c Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2001
    Messages:
    9,689
    I've wondered if it's the way we coach our girls. ie more social then competitive, and when you get that than you tend to not take your coaching as seriously etc. etc.

    Do we have a tendency to unintentionally discourage them trying all the jumps *too soon*?

    Do some of our coaches lack the skills to get the girls/young ladies motivated and stay that way?

    I know that in Canada we have a major battle getting adequate ice time. We compete with hockey, ringette, public skating and then figure skating. The end result is that to get private lessons/ice time can just be a major headache. And that is all over Canada.
    Perhaps that is a major factor, not getting the ice time, the coaching during the ice time, etc. etc.

    Thoughts?
  9. vmfan89

    vmfan89 New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2010
    Messages:
    56
    Agreed! She is young and has plently of room to grow. I don't understand how they can give the opportunity to two girls who have had so many chances and who time and time again show that they can't hold it together when it counts. Why not give Kaitlyn the chance? Get her out to those big competitions so she can get exposure and learn to compete. No offense intended, but the 4CC spot given to Najarro was a waste.

    Had I been the one making decisions, I would have sent Osmond to Sr Worlds and Daleman to Jr Worlds.
  10. Jenifer

    Jenifer Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2002
    Messages:
    136
    I can't imagine that ice time is the problem in Canada. 15 years ago as a CanSkater with *no* hope of becoming competitive I still had 6 hours of ice every week. By comparison, when I went to public skating at my closest rink while living in Tokyo, there would always be girls with significant skills on the ice getting lessons from private coaches (including once, to my great surprise, Yukina Ota).

    I would agree with sk8girl that talent identification is much closer to the root of the problem. Taking lessons at a Skate Canada club is, for most girls, just another after school activity and not pursued at a competitive level. Having now also lived in Japan, Connecticut (near Simsbury) and Europe, it seems that skating in those countries is much more of a niche sport, and consequently more likely to be taken seriously by those who pursue it.
  11. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Messages:
    1,592
    Osmond didn't have a SB that made her eligible for 4CC or Worlds. Or is that just for the GP series?
  12. made_in_canada

    made_in_canada INTJ

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2004
    Messages:
    4,182
    I think a big part of the problem is that parents want their kids to try everything. As a coach, I have a heck of a time convincing parents that they need to focus on skating as a young child. They think their kids need to be in music, 3 different sports, speech arts, etc... and consequently instead of following the training program I'd like (with ballet and off-ice) they end up doing half the program I'd like them to, or being completely exhausted and burned out before they hit their teens. I think because it's easier to be competitive as a man, and have competitive success as a man, it's easier for the parents to buy into competitive skating early.

    I don't see ice time as a major factor. Yes, we fight with kid's, women's and men's hockey leagues, ringette, and public skating but we still have way more ice than in a lot of countries with successful skaters. In my city of 90,000 we have 6 arenas. We complain about ice time but it really isn't a factor. The ice is there for those that want it. Even in the surrounding area of much smaller towns most towns with at least 1000 people have a rink and a skating club.

    Skate Canada is doing a major overhaul on most of it's programs and it'll be interesting to see if it makes a difference. In BC, there has been a major effort to make talent ID more effective and prevent kids from falling through the cracks. This effort especially is trying to reach the kids from smaller regions. Again, it remains to be seen if it works but I think it's definitely a step in the right direction. For a long time it seemed like the section didn't care about you unless you were willing to skate at 8 rinks. Now they really are trying to provide the resources and expertise to keep kids where they are and still have them be successful.
  13. Dave of the North

    Dave of the North Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2001
    Messages:
    4,326
    She had the minimum score from the JGP last year. Her bigger problem is she doesn't have the triple lutz.
  14. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2002
    Messages:
    3,437
    Skate Canada probably won't ever again skip over higher placed entrants at Nationals for Worlds spots after being criticized (in hindsight) for sending 12 year old Tracey Wainman to the 1980 Worlds even though she was the bronze medallist at the Canadian Nationals (and there was only 1 entrant in ladies that year)
  15. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,862
    Carolina Kostner doesn't have the triple lutz either. :p
  16. Dave of the North

    Dave of the North Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2001
    Messages:
    4,326
    I wasn't going to go there...:p
  17. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2011
    Messages:
    3,536
    They skipped over Cynthia Phaneuf in 2004. :shuffle:

    And what about Myriane Samson, the silver medalist last year? Why did they send Amélie Lacoste? Was Samson injured?
  18. sk8girl

    sk8girl Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2011
    Messages:
    339
    Yes, Samson was injured last year and Lacoste went to Worlds as the alternate.
  19. fsfan22

    fsfan22 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2008
    Messages:
    98
    Problem solved!
  20. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,862
    Maybe that was a good thing. Samson went to Worlds 2010 and didn't qualify for the FS (no QR back then---she scored too low in the SP to go on to the FS). In 2011, Lacoste was 5th in the QR, 14th in the SP and 18th in the FS to finish 16th overall.
  21. pat c

    pat c Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2001
    Messages:
    9,689
    I agree with this. It seems we use a scatter gun approach to sports/arts for instance instead of listening to the kid who might say, no I don't want to play y, I'd rather do x instead. In theory letting your kids try everything is great. In practice, it burns the kid out and the parents.

    It depends on where you are. Where I'm from, a lot of volunteer hours are spent keeping rinks going. So 6:00 a.m. practices don't happen, so you fight for the hours from 3:00 to 11:00, and if you have a canskate program, you want early hours ie right after school or early evening. Of course minor hockey wants the same hours, as well as public skating and weekends are out in small town Canada because of hockey tournaments which are big money makers and public skating. Everyone tries their best, but there is only so many hours available.

    Good, there have been kids who have fallen through the cracks because they live too far away from a major centre. But it makes me wonder what Kurt Browning and his parents did, because Caroline/Rocky Mtn, Alberta isn't a mecca for high level figure skating.
  22. Cant Skate

    Cant Skate Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2012
    Messages:
    143
    Uh....while creeping my daughters Facebook page today, Kaetlyn posted a video of a triple lutz triple toe combo. Just sayin' ..... for enquiring minds who want to know!
  23. 4rkidz

    4rkidz GPF Barcelona here I come

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2001
    Messages:
    9,184
    Lots of Canadian girls actually have triple lutz from 14 year olds and up.. but that's when they are practicing.. the bigger issue is helping our kids get what they do in practice into the competition - it's not about the talent :blah:
  24. Dave of the North

    Dave of the North Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2001
    Messages:
    4,326
    That's good news! Was it on the correct edge and not cheated? Maybe it will be ready to try at Junior worlds...
  25. Cant Skate

    Cant Skate Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2012
    Messages:
    143
    You saw my user name right? Lol.....I have no idea, I'm just a fan :) She was on her feet and it was landed strong but it all looks good to me if they are not on their butts! My daughter said it was the first time she'd landed the combo so I wouldn't count on it being ready for worlds but apparently she's been doing the triple lutz in her short :) (its so handy to have a little spy in the house!)
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2012
  26. Spazactaz

    Spazactaz New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,812
    Her triple lutz is great! Her 3lz+3t is clean too. :)
  27. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

    Joined:
    May 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,063
    Gabrielle Daleman is on the initial entry list for Challenge Cup (March 8-11 in The Hague), so that's good news!
  28. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    6,995
    This. I think part of the problem is the focus on winning in the early stages. Girls are held back, or hold themselves back, so they can win. They do this because the rewards of winning at a lower level far outweigh the rewards of being in the bottom half of a higher level. I remember a few years back the mom of a really talented girl saying that her daughter was going to stay pre juv for another year rather than moving up to juv a year early. The coach decided this because she would have a better chance of making the select team if she was on the podium in pre juv rather than off the podium in juv. She also didn't do her harder combos in competition because they wanted her to skate clean. Talk about backward thinking! Boys, IMHO, don't have this problem because there are so few in the early levels that when they move up they still have a good shot at the podium.
  29. JanetB

    JanetB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2002
    Messages:
    2,522
    Could you post a link please
  30. minx

    minx New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2006
    Messages:
    569
    The Cost. $$$$$$$$ Seriously.

    I see lots of talented little kids. Sometimes the kids LOVE it so much that the parents can't help but to fund the obsession. But there is a point, there is always a point where the parent has to look at their kid, and their bank balance and decide whether they can continue well before outside funding is ever available.
  31. made_in_canada

    made_in_canada INTJ

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2004
    Messages:
    4,182
    This argument can be made for lots of different sports and activities. Anything pursued at a high level (sport, music, dance, etc...) is expensive. Though it is a barrier, I don't think that has anything to do with why Canadian women don't have depth.
  32. Subway

    Subway New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2011
    Messages:
    348
    That doesn't explain why Canadian men are World champions much more frequently than Canadian women, especially when fewer men are in the sport to begin with, decreasing the probability of a guy with the talent and funding to reach the highest level. But they do, more frequently than the women.
  33. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,862
    Maybe it's because so few Canadian ladies DO go on to become champions. It's become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
  34. DarrellH

    DarrellH New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2007
    Messages:
    4,763
    Perhaps the better women go into pairs and dance, more than the better men do? In the U.S. it seems to be that you go into pairs if you can't cut it in singles.
  35. Jot the Dot Dot

    Jot the Dot Dot Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2007
    Messages:
    2,472
    Judge them by how much bacon they eat, and how often their sentances end with "Eh?"
  36. Rafter

    Rafter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2001
    Messages:
    9,941
    Why did she not do a 3lutz at Canadians if it is so great?
  37. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

    Joined:
    May 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,063
    ShawTVEdmonton uploaded this news piece on Kaetlyn Osmond on Feb 17: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skMI9IcDFG4

    Osmond: "In both programs we added a new jump that I haven't actually done in competition yet - it's my triple Lutz - so... really looking forward to trying that. And then we also added a triple-triple into my long."
  38. JanetB

    JanetB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2002
    Messages:
    2,522
    It could be that the 3t/3t and the 3 lutz started to gel at the same time and they didn't want to put 2 new to competition elements in her programs at one time.
  39. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    6,995
    There was an interesting segment last night on the CBC coverage of Junior Worlds. It was called something like, searching for the next Canadian sweetheart. Tracy Wilson made some interesting comments about why we aren't as successful with the women as with the men. One of the things she stressed was that we need to support girls as they go through puberty. We need to not jump all over them and call them head cases when they have a bad season. The changes in their bodies take time to adjust to and they need confidence building not tearing down while they are trying to adjust. The other comment she made was that in some other countries they are fine with taking forty girls and working them hard, and seeing who comes out the other end. They don't worry about the ones that fall off during the process. She said that as a society, Canadians want to support and encourage all skaters to get reach their potential. This could mean that resources are spread more thinly than in a system where only the top few get support.
    It was an interesting segment and is probably available to watch on CBC.ca
  40. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

    Joined:
    May 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,063
    Here's the direct link to the 10-minute segment titled "The Big Picture: Legacy of Ladies Skating: Examining the next generation of Canadian female figure skaters" (not geoblocked): http://www.cbc.ca/sports/figureskating/video/#id=2205235358
    Doug Leigh, Jennifer Robinson, and Josée Chouinard are among those interviewed and Tracy Wilson and Pj Kwong contribute commentary afterwards.