Figure skating is dying, and judges can't prop it up

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sugar, Mar 18, 2013.

  1. saveskating

    saveskating New Member

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    Two points, and then I'll leave you to your musings, since your hatred is not worth my time, or anyone else's.

    (1) It is true that I didn't sign my name, hut that's only because none of you do, duh! It's common practice on boards and I knew you'd know who I am. How many of you sign? Funny, I see no signatures. And I never knew there's a rule against promoting your work. It's what people do in their jobs every day. Why couldn't I promote my petition? I know of no such law. If I wanted to hide, I could have made up any other unrecognizable name. Or ask a friend to post for me. But I didn't, did I? I was honest and used Saveskating, which everyone knows is me. I use the same nickname for my blog, for instance, where I have my name clearly spelled out at the top. (I don't write there anymore because I write in other places, but the blog is still there.) The last thing you can accuse me of is hiding behind anonymity. Also, the petition has MY name at the top . I could have used any other fake name. Or none at all. I used mine in plain letters for the world to see. My articles on the web all have my byline. Few people in skating dare to take on the system openly. A lot of them support me ... but privately only. I'm one of very few who do it loud and clear and don't fear to put my name on everything I write. So bash me to your heart's content on any subject that makes you happy, but NOT on the subject of anonymity.

    (2) For the record, I know that this board is bashing to pieces anyone who dares speak against IJS/COP. So no one else does. Since the skating world is very much divided on the subject, I find it very odd that one board alone would be exclusively in favor of the system and full of hatred and venom for anyone who disagrees. Makes you wonder, doesn't it? The concept of respecting someone's opinion even if it's not your own doesn't seem to exist around here much. Everywhere else I can debate people in friendly discussions. Here it's open warfare. It couldn't be worse if the ISU was in charge. So I'll gracefully leave you to your bashing and your TRULY anonymous posts.
     
  2. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    Actually, Monica, everyone here can read and has read over many years vigorous discussion on FSU of all aspects of the judging system and debates as to whether 6.0 is better, which you would see if you even bothered to read this thread.

    FSU is the best place on the internet to discuss such issues with serious fans.

    And there you go again. First you accuse the ISU of atrocities and now you suggest FSU is about "warfare."

    Maybe if you weren't so unfailingly over the top you might be taken more seriously.
     
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  3. algonquin

    algonquin Well-Known Member

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    Not at all, there have been plenty of civil discussions on this board about COP vs 6.0.
     
  4. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    In all seriousness, Monica as one who called you an idiot on this board, I have to say you're right there's a lot of venom here for people who act like fools. You published at examiner.com an article--yes under your byline--where you "reported" on your own petition as if you were just objectively reporting. Yes, anyone would see you were responsible for both but with all due respect that really made you look very foolish.
     
  5. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Not to mention unethical. It's not enough that people can research for themselves who wrote the petition and who wrote the article on the petition, but by presenting it as you did, you gave a dishonest account of the whole situation. I think journalists should be held to a higher standard, no?

    Also, true people here tend to can be mean and pounce on posters who post emotionally-fused irrational rants (or authors who write articles in a similar manner), but people give back what they get, you know?
     
  6. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    It is on the contrary if you could actually read through.;)

    People who use the most venomous languages and bashing all the time here and on other main figure skating forums are the people who are against IJS/COP.
     
  7. Reuven

    Reuven Official FSU Alte Kacher

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    Joined in March, has two posts, and she knows the entire history of 10+ years of all the posts about scoring that have been on FSU? Yarite.
     
  8. Dr.Siouxs

    Dr.Siouxs Well-Known Member

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    Indeed....do a little "research", perhaps? Hopefully the concept isn't too foreign to her. ;)
     
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  9. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    For you to assume that this forum is pro-IJS demonstrates you have not spent any time here. Over the years there have been plenty of discussions with people contributing to both sides of the debate.

    However what is causing people to ridicule you is writing an article promoting a petition that you established without any reference to you being the one who established it. And you came on this forum promoting your own petition without any reference to it being you. I had no clue that Saveskating was Monica so you can't assume that everyone knows that Saveskating is your idiom. But then again you post in a thread promoting your petition.

    However if you want to bring together pro and anti IJS forces together in a united front, just throw journalist credibility out the door.
     
  10. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    Boy, are you ever missing the point. Your article about the petition has your name on the article, but it doesn't say that you yourself started the petition. Why do you, as a journalist, not understand how wrong this is? Has the concept of objectivity, or conflict of interest, ever come into your reasoning?

    I don't respect the opinion of someone who is deceitful in their reporting.
     
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  11. Prancer

    Prancer The "specialness" that is Staff Member

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    Goodbye, cruel board :drama:. I didn't really want to be here, anyway.
     
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  12. Simone411

    Simone411 aka IceSkate98

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    Well, I'm afraid that's not the case with everyone here at FSU. I have my name in my signature. So, "duh" right back at you. I also haven't seen a lot of bashing just because someone on this board may be against COP. More or less, most folks express their opinions which is very common at FSU, and that's not going to change very much. That's part of FSU, and just because someone differs in opinion doesn't always mean it's bashing.

    I've posted here since 2007, and I haven't come across any "warfare" yet nor have I needed any weapons to defend myself. I'll just say Ciao since you're leaving.
     
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  13. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Where is the warfare emoticon when you need it?
     
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  14. Prancer

    Prancer The "specialness" that is Staff Member

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    :argue:

    Although I think Monica had something more like this in mind: :lynch:
     
  15. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    :lynch:
    ..FSU.....Monica

    I was looking for something more in a shade of artillery or nuclear warhead.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2013
  16. Lanie

    Lanie Well-Known Member

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    We're so meeeeeeean!1!1!eleventy!!! :drama:
     
  17. Simone411

    Simone411 aka IceSkate98

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    What about this one? :lol:

    :argue:
     
  18. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    Look at this emoticon:

    :argue:

    The left one is meaner than the right one. :biggrinbo
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2013
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  19. SmallFairy

    SmallFairy Well-Known Member

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    This is fun! I would like to start a petition to give Sasha Abt the Euros gold 2002. I feel I have suffered long enough!
     
  20. skatemomaz

    skatemomaz 4 More Years

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    :rofl:


    Warfare emoticon :revenge:
     
  21. allezfred

    allezfred Prick Admin Staff Member

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    Saveskating, I think you need to think about saving your credibility as a journalist (if you ever had any in the first place) before you start on skating. :shuffle:

    Although I need to thank you because in future when I see your name attached to an article I'll know to avoid it. :D
     
  22. mumboman

    mumboman New Member

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    Save Skating don't you think the actual problem is not neccessarily cop, but how judges and federations politic to use it. As a scoring system cop is ideal for the athlete, they have total control over their technical base score( only relying on a technical panel to verify elements) Now of course their is sometimes politics on the tech panel so you get the odd funny underrotation call, or they don't look like consistent calls skater to skater or competition to competition. The PCS is judged on very good criteria when you consider figure skating as a sport and art. The problem is the actual judging of this criteria and in most cases. What do good skating skills look like? Why does a skater with only crossovers get transition scores of 7-8 at times, at times poor choreography is being scored higher than excellent choreography based on skaters reputation. 6.0 was exactly the same in this manner. On the tech side, the +2's and 3's go to the known skaters, when at times skaters in 10, 12 and 20th deserve that +2 or +3 based on the bullets, yet they see a zero or -1. Javier Fernandez' jumps did not get better, he changed coaches. Yes his packaging is better but are his jumps? It's the politics and cheating in the system that is screwing up skating, it's not the scoring system. You could use 6.0, some kind of modified system whatever and skating will still have the same problem. Their are cheats everywhere still working in the sport. Judges are suspended for cheating and allowed to return. Federation presidents are allowed to cheat, suspended, allowed to return and allowed to cheat some more. The same people did the same things in the 6.0 system as they do in cop. They get caught and do it again, some don't get caught and keep doing it. This is the actual problem with figure skating at the moment.
     
  23. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    I wonder why you are surprised by this?!:rolleyes:

    The media and the journalists like yourself have been playing active and significantly damaging roles in the crashing. Sorry, your action does not show at all that you are caring and saving the skating. On the contrary, it looks like that you feel that the world has not been messy enough.;)
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2013
  24. iloveemoticons

    iloveemoticons Well-Known Member

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    How does somebody become known? You have to start winning somewhere. Let's say she was a favorite going into the Olympics because she was reigning World champ, but before Tara won Worlds, she was certainly not a favorite or well known. Yet she was still able to beat Kwan at Worlds that year.

    Not only do I think reputation judging under CoP is worse, but it's even more unfair to skaters now, because they increased the Olympics age limit and eliminated the age loophole for Worlds which both Tara and Sarah took advantage of. Now skaters can't go to senior Worlds that early. These "new young unknown girls" are in actuality 16,17,18 years old already, ages when Tara, Sarah, and Michelle had already won big international titles. Therefore, the judging, now more than ever, should be focused on how skaters do that night, and not anything else, or else up and coming skaters won't have a fair chance to win medals in their careers. Yet CoP holds them down on PCS way too much if they are unknown.

    Take 2013 Worlds LP:

    Yuna: 6 clean triples, two 2As. PCS 74.
    Mao: 1 two footed 3A, 4 other clean triples. One 2A. PCS 68.
    Caro: 5 clean triples, one 2A. PCS 71.

    Zijun: 7 clean triples, two 2As. PCS 58.
    Doing cleanly a maximum jump layout, Li still misses 3rd position in LP by 4 points. So just to make the podium, she has to do another triple for a total of 8 triples (that she's not even allowed to do) to beat 5 triple programs. Lolz. When has this ever happened under 6.0, where a skater skating a 7 triple LP can't even get on the podium against 5 triple programs?

    Then, in order to have a chance to win, Li would have to make up a LP PCS deficit of 16. She has to do another 3 or 4 triples make that up. This is not even mentioning the PCS deficit from the SP. Under 6.0, even a well-reputed skater like Kwan would not have won over a Gracie/Li/RussianBaby by doing 3-4 triples less in the LP. Yet this scenario seems to be totally fine and accepted under CoP. Presentation IS part of it, but the PCS differences are too great.
     
  25. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    In the case of Lipinski, it was being featured in articles, including having a photo in the annual Nationals article in "Sports Illustrated" which she placed second to Junior champion Sydne Vogel, who did not get a photo.

    Lipinski was second at US Nationals, beating the reigning World bronze medalist, Nicole Bobek, going into her first senior World Championships with a lot of buzz and hype; her two top-five placements at Jr. Worlds the years before might not have been stellar, but they made her known to the judges. She barely made the FS in 1996, but she didn't let it get to her and skated a blinder in the FS from the first group, with a lead that held through a couple of groups, ending in 11th in the FS and 15th overall. That performance put her on the map, and the next season, she beat Kwan at Nationals and Worlds; only later did Kwan disclose she had be skating with a broken toe that hindered her toe jumps.

    Elena Gedevanishvili had a good junior career, winning a few GP medals, but she placed 5th at Europeans in 2006 and was in the last group of skaters in the FS, due to her great SP, and her coach wuzrobbing her SP performance, deriding Cohen's placement.
     
  26. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    It helped that Lipinski had 1) skated at 1996 Worlds, where she had bombed the short program but impressed in the long, despite a fairly low final placement; 2) skated well on the Champions Series (=Grand Prix) circuit in fall 1996, qualifying for the 1997 Champions Series final; 3) gotten some attention, along with Slutskaya, for landing 3S+3Lo in the fall competitions; 4) gotten a lot more attention at US Nationals for being the first lady (some reports mistakenly said first person) to land 3Lo+3Lo combination; 5) won US Nationals with a very strong freeskate including that history-making combination, unseating Kwan; and 6) won the Champions Series Final, ahead of Kwan.

    By the time she got to 1997 Worlds, Lipinski was well known within the skating community. Even more so by the next year's Olympics.

    That doesn't make the actual "reputation judging" worse -- only the effect that whatever reputation judging might exist makes it harder for a 15- or 16-year-old to win because she will be new to seniors.

    Didn't stop Mao Asada from winning the Grand Prix Final in 2006.

    On the other hand, now there are quite a lot more opportunities for talented skaters in their early teens to compete internationally at the junior level. The JGP started just about the time that the age limits were introduced. No, it doesn't put them up against the current stars or in front of TV audiences at that age, and the rewards for success are not as great. But it does get more young skaters known to international judges. If a skater is showing skills in juniors that would challenge the top seniors, the judges will have heard the buzz and many will have seen those skaters with their own eyes. So they won't go into senior competition completely unknown, even if TV audiences never heard of them before. FSU members usually would have. ;)

    It's easy to say that young skaters are "held down" because they are unknown or because they're too young. That's often said by fans rooting for new faces to replace the familiar ones and by commentators rooting for young stars from their own countries. It was said about Kwan in 1995, and to some degree about Lipinski, as well.

    But how much of that is really about the date on the birth certificate, or the number of previous senior competitions? And how much of it is about actual skills demonstrated -- skating skills like speed, depth of edge, etc., and presentation skills like posture, projection, awareness and precise placement of arms and free leg in space, taking the time to phrase the movement to the music in detail?

    Those skills take time to learn. The most talented are already good at those things at 15 or 16, but they tend to get even better at them later in their careers. In early teens, a talented skater's biggest strength might be her jumps. By late teens or 20s, her jumps may not be quite as strong but the rest of her skating is enough stronger to deserve higher PCS (or higher second mark under 6.0).

    So as long as skating is not just a jumping contest, with perfectly fair honest judging the kid with the most jumps is not always going to be the winner. This was true under 6.0 and remains true under IJS.

    What is true is that overall impression counted for more under 6.0 -- for some judges jump count usually tipped the balance; for other judges skating skills and presentation were more important and they tended to favor "mature artistry" over "jumping beans."

    Under IJS, each skater gets full credit for exactly whatever jumps she completes, so a skater with difficult jumps who gets them all done can better pull herself into contention on the strength of jumps alone. But she needs other strengths as well to actually win.

    Age limits are a separate issue.
     
  27. Reuven

    Reuven Official FSU Alte Kacher

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    Add to that, it looks like she joined expressly to make that self-promoting post.
     
  28. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    I don't see a problem with that. If someone started a petition about something skated related this is the place they'd want to come to get people to consider signing it. She's come to the right place to discuss figure skating, she's just done it a way that's turned a lot of people off.
     
  29. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Maybe she can start a petition about how horrible FSU is and then post a link to it here so she can promote it.
     
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  30. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Michelle Kwan 1995 Worlds. Yes, she did end up placing 3rd in the LP, but both Lu Chen and Bobek landed five triples and placed ahead of Kwan who did 7. However, since Kwan did beat Bobek in the LP and I believe Chen deserved gold, I think the results were fair. I do think Kwan should have medaled but that's because she was undermarked in the SP.