Figure skating is dying, and judges can't prop it up

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sugar, Mar 18, 2013.

  1. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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    No, but they are interested in the judging, too. Part of the whole viewing experience used to be seeing how the judges from the different countries marked the skaters. Of course, the skaters matter as well. The two are not mutually exclusive.
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2013
  2. saveskating

    saveskating New Member

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    Many of us have been predicting the eventual demise of skating as a result of the "new" judging system, and many on this board and elsewhere have been mocking us. No doubt there are many forces at play, but it's crashing even faster than I thought. The judges can't prop up the sport, but they are hiding behind anonymity and propping up the skaters they want with more impunity than ever. That's why Patrick Chan can mess up as badly as he did at Worlds (and sometimes worse) and still always beat his best competitors. That's because the world is looking the other way. In 2002, the pair scandal resulted in a second gold medal for Sale & Pelletier. The reason for it was not the admission of the French judge and all that crap. It was the fact that the whole world witnessed the injustice. Now the ISU thinks they can go under the radar screen with their atrocities. Let's show them we're watching and we know. Please sign this petition to award the gold to the true winner of the men's competition at Worlds, Dennis Ten:

    http://www.thepetitionsite.com/760/...-the-2013-world-figure-skating-championships/

    Thank you.
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  3. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Is that Monica Friedlander visiting us promoting her own petition? :lol:
  4. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    This from someone who writes a news story about the petition without mentioning that she herself started the petition :rolleyes: Give me a break.

    If you're going to keep playing at being a journalist, you might try to spell his first name correctly. It's "Denis".
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2013
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  5. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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    Someone needs to start a petition saving us from American "journalists" who are ruining the sport of figure skating. So sick of seeing these stupid posts whining ignorantly about a "new" system that has been around for a decade now. Educate yourselves, learn it and if that is too much work for gods sake find another sport to follow so those of us who are fans and took a moment to figure things out can enjoy it without hearing constant tantrums in the corner from a few dinosaurs who still think the world is flat.
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  6. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    Hi Monica. So you think that the ISU commits atrocities? Take a little break and breathe a bit.

    If you can recognize that a big scandal happened in 2002 under the old judging system, you can realize that the decline of skating isn't caused by the IJS and skating won't be revived simply by changing the judging the system.

    When you are calling skating judging controversies atrocities you really aren't looking at things with any perspective.
  7. michiruwater

    michiruwater Well-Known Member

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    I find it really ironic that you would rant about judges hiding behind anonymity while promoting a petition you created under a name other than your own, Ms. Friedlander.
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  8. fscric

    fscric Active Member

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    Since this Monica person has been bashing Patrick left and right for some time, I have to wonder about the motive behind this petition and it can't get any more pathetic to try to promote this by specially creating an account here under another name. Like overedge said, if this is about awarding a gold to Denis, she would have at least had the decency to spell his name right, shame on her.
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2013
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  9. Dr.Siouxs

    Dr.Siouxs Well-Known Member

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    :respec:

    With all due respect, Monica, this is beyond shady.
  10. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Maybe we should start a thread about Monica. However we all must post under a cloud of anononononmimity (I can't spell that word let alone say it).
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  11. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    Desperate, hun?!:rofl:

    Your personal hatred is obvious. Don't use "save skating" to cover it up!



    And a poll about this "petition".:D
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2013
  12. iloveemoticons

    iloveemoticons Well-Known Member

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    I just think PCS is subjective and skaters with good skating skills and choreo are not being given their due PCS wise. Take skating skills. Sasha, who most people on his board agree has weak skating skills, got the same score for skating skills as Shizuka and Irina did. Most would not agree that Sasha's skating skills are the same level as Shizuka's. And because of subjective PCS judgments, some skaters would theoretically have to execute one or two additional 3Lutz-3Toes to make up that PCS deficit.
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  13. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Don't tempt me :)

    I have officially declared Ms Friedlander's post as the most amusing thing I have come across today.
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  14. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    Oh, hardly. I was actually tempted by you.:lol:
  15. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

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    But ISU has sold the rights and got it's money. They've gotten a ton of money from Japan and other countries as well as the US. It gets it's money whether or not Universal Sports actually shows the skating or not. And they just negotiated a better contract that starts in 2014 that is not only good for them but it actually good for us because now we can see everything on Ice Network and won't be held hostage to US's failed attempts to grow their network and whatever politics were going on between them and NBC.
  16. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    Hi Ms Friedlander,

    Please stop calling yourself a journalist. You're making the rest of us look bad.

    On the flip side, if you hate skating so much and don't wanna do your job anymore, I'm looking.
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  17. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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    I doubt if politics are involved. It is no doubt about money.
  18. Prancer

    Prancer The "specialness" that is Staff Member

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    Sort of like how Tara beat Michelle with a 3loop-3loop and a triple toe/half loop/triple salchow sequence at the very end of her Olympic program? Team Tara knew what they were up against.

    People made the same complaints about Presentation marks and Artistic Impression before that.

    If you are talking about the 2006 Olympics, Sasha got lower scores for skating skills than Irina and Shizuka in both the short and long programs. The score wasn't hugely lower, but "weak" is relative. Sasha had some weaknesses in SS, but not all. I do think the judges need work on PCS judging, but I don't see how Presentation or Artistic Impression under 6.0 were any less subjective.
  19. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    In a system where criteria is meant to rate on a scale, not rank skaters, the gap in scores should reflect the criteria. Having seen both skaters live many times, Cohen was at the bottom of skating skills among the top skaters and by a stretch: Sebestyen and Volchkova, let alone Arakawa, left her in the dust in terms of blade efficiency and depth of edges, knee action, flow, and speed that resulted without compensating back-pumping or poor posture, and they and Arakawa were not slouches in terms of one-footed and multi-directional skating, nor was Slutskaya. If Cohen had closed the gap in SS by 50% she'd have had a far better skillset to present her programs, and her abilities in IN and PE were already formidable, mainly due to her attention to detail and ability to sculpt shapes and create images. Similarly, in GOE, her blatant flutz was ignored, going by the criteria. (She wasn't the only one, and underrotation and edge deductions/penalties were ignored among the top skaters going by the protocols until the tech panel took them over.)

    That the use of the current system to score the actual differences in components is weak and not much better than under 6.0 doesn't make it an either/or/why change or worse system, but the either the ISU's disinterest or political paralysis in enforcing the system properly is a disappointment.
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2013
  20. Prancer

    Prancer The "specialness" that is Staff Member

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    Agreed. But the argument being put forth was that this was not nearly as much of a problem under 6.0. I don't see that at all.
  21. iloveemoticons

    iloveemoticons Well-Known Member

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    But Michelle also did 7 clean triples with no mistakes. Under CoP, Tara or Sarah would have had to do one or two additional 3-3s on top of their planned 3-3s to make up the PCS if any of the favorites were able to do even six clean triples with no mistakes.

    In the SP where all skated clean there was like a .1 difference. That's essentially the same score. However "not weak" Sasha's skating skills are, by most observers' standards it's not even close to Shizuka or Irina's skating skills. And the fact that every single apparent discrepancy in PCS judging can be explained away by saying, "Well actually her skating her skills are decent" just reinforces how subjective PCS is.
  22. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Yes. And the failures are transparent under this system, and hardly so in the old.
  23. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Which provides more opportunities for people to complain.
  24. Prancer

    Prancer The "specialness" that is Staff Member

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    What do you think Tara or Sarah's PCS scores would have been relative to Michelle's and what do you base that on?

    Tara was absolutely a favorite. I don't understand how you could possibly think she was not. Sarah wasn't a favorite for gold, but she was hardly some unknown Gracie Gold.

    Who says that?

    But your argument all along here has been that 6.0 was BETTER. So how was it better?

    Complaints and skating fandom go hand in hand.
  25. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

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    But also improve.
  26. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Yes that is very true.
  27. Jaana

    Jaana Well-Known Member

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    At the 1998 Olympics Tara as the reigning World champion plus as the reigning Champion Series Final champion can be seen as a bigger or at least as an equal Gold favourite to Michelle, in my opinion.
  28. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    Figure skating is not dying, but it needs to think bigger
    http://www.figureskating-online.com/skating-is-not-dying.html

    Some interesting point, some look more like this article was written by child. ;)
    Was in Getteborg full arena at WCh& Because from TV i had impression it wasnt.
    And for sure in Nice and Torina (wich is great places for fans IMHO) arena wasnr full even at the week-end.
    And if ISU thinking its funny to have controversial results i dont know what to say. I think it will be better, if they will explane what is going on.

    But still interesting to read.
  29. Nikki Lee

    Nikki Lee Active Member

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  30. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Her flip landing was a little wonky, but technically it was clean. For some reason, Kwan did this thing after her Flip landings that season where instead of holding the landing like she would normally do for her jumps, she would move her arms put her free-leg behind her. I guess the Kwan team thought it looked prettier and showed control (would it be considered a transition after the landing?). In Nagano, her flip wasn't as controlled but she still went for the landing position as planned, so all of those factors together made it look more like a balance check that night.
  31. saveskating

    saveskating New Member

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    Two points, and then I'll leave you to your musings, since your hatred is not worth my time, or anyone else's.

    (1) It is true that I didn't sign my name, hut that's only because none of you do, duh! It's common practice on boards and I knew you'd know who I am. How many of you sign? Funny, I see no signatures. And I never knew there's a rule against promoting your work. It's what people do in their jobs every day. Why couldn't I promote my petition? I know of no such law. If I wanted to hide, I could have made up any other unrecognizable name. Or ask a friend to post for me. But I didn't, did I? I was honest and used Saveskating, which everyone knows is me. I use the same nickname for my blog, for instance, where I have my name clearly spelled out at the top. (I don't write there anymore because I write in other places, but the blog is still there.) The last thing you can accuse me of is hiding behind anonymity. Also, the petition has MY name at the top . I could have used any other fake name. Or none at all. I used mine in plain letters for the world to see. My articles on the web all have my byline. Few people in skating dare to take on the system openly. A lot of them support me ... but privately only. I'm one of very few who do it loud and clear and don't fear to put my name on everything I write. So bash me to your heart's content on any subject that makes you happy, but NOT on the subject of anonymity.

    (2) For the record, I know that this board is bashing to pieces anyone who dares speak against IJS/COP. So no one else does. Since the skating world is very much divided on the subject, I find it very odd that one board alone would be exclusively in favor of the system and full of hatred and venom for anyone who disagrees. Makes you wonder, doesn't it? The concept of respecting someone's opinion even if it's not your own doesn't seem to exist around here much. Everywhere else I can debate people in friendly discussions. Here it's open warfare. It couldn't be worse if the ISU was in charge. So I'll gracefully leave you to your bashing and your TRULY anonymous posts.
  32. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    Actually, Monica, everyone here can read and has read over many years vigorous discussion on FSU of all aspects of the judging system and debates as to whether 6.0 is better, which you would see if you even bothered to read this thread.

    FSU is the best place on the internet to discuss such issues with serious fans.

    And there you go again. First you accuse the ISU of atrocities and now you suggest FSU is about "warfare."

    Maybe if you weren't so unfailingly over the top you might be taken more seriously.
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  33. algonquin

    algonquin Well-Known Member

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    Not at all, there have been plenty of civil discussions on this board about COP vs 6.0.
  34. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    In all seriousness, Monica as one who called you an idiot on this board, I have to say you're right there's a lot of venom here for people who act like fools. You published at examiner.com an article--yes under your byline--where you "reported" on your own petition as if you were just objectively reporting. Yes, anyone would see you were responsible for both but with all due respect that really made you look very foolish.
  35. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Not to mention unethical. It's not enough that people can research for themselves who wrote the petition and who wrote the article on the petition, but by presenting it as you did, you gave a dishonest account of the whole situation. I think journalists should be held to a higher standard, no?

    Also, true people here tend to can be mean and pounce on posters who post emotionally-fused irrational rants (or authors who write articles in a similar manner), but people give back what they get, you know?
  36. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    It is on the contrary if you could actually read through.;)

    People who use the most venomous languages and bashing all the time here and on other main figure skating forums are the people who are against IJS/COP.
  37. Reuven

    Reuven Official FSU Alte Kacher

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    Joined in March, has two posts, and she knows the entire history of 10+ years of all the posts about scoring that have been on FSU? Yarite.
  38. Dr.Siouxs

    Dr.Siouxs Well-Known Member

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    Indeed....do a little "research", perhaps? Hopefully the concept isn't too foreign to her. ;)
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  39. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    For you to assume that this forum is pro-IJS demonstrates you have not spent any time here. Over the years there have been plenty of discussions with people contributing to both sides of the debate.

    However what is causing people to ridicule you is writing an article promoting a petition that you established without any reference to you being the one who established it. And you came on this forum promoting your own petition without any reference to it being you. I had no clue that Saveskating was Monica so you can't assume that everyone knows that Saveskating is your idiom. But then again you post in a thread promoting your petition.

    However if you want to bring together pro and anti IJS forces together in a united front, just throw journalist credibility out the door.
  40. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    Boy, are you ever missing the point. Your article about the petition has your name on the article, but it doesn't say that you yourself started the petition. Why do you, as a journalist, not understand how wrong this is? Has the concept of objectivity, or conflict of interest, ever come into your reasoning?

    I don't respect the opinion of someone who is deceitful in their reporting.
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