Figure skating is dying, and judges can't prop it up

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sugar, Mar 18, 2013.

  1. MacMadame

    MacMadame Cat Lady-in-Training

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    That's interesting because I've seen dance competitions that use raw scores. Maybe they weren't real because at least one of them was in the movie Silver Linings Playbook. :lol: But that was a different federation, I believe. There are a number of groups putting on dance competition (I have friends that do different kinds of dance) and they use different scoring systems.

    And it's the audience voting that brings in the audience. All these shows with audience voting have huge ratings.

    To say DWTS is based on the old 6.0 system because judges give a mark when it's not marks based on a 6.0 system and they are added to an audience score in some mysterious way that is never revealed and so many sports and competitions also give out marks based on a 10.0 system and then claim that DWTS popularity is proof that 6.0 is better than IJS is completely illogical to me.
     
  2. Mathman

    Mathman Active Member

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    ^ OT, but actually one time DWTS did explain how the voting works on the air. Tom Bergeron whizzed through it as fast as announcers go through the list of side effects of the drugs they advertising (usually ending with blindness, insanity and death). I got the impression that there might be some sort of FCC rule that required it. (The judges' scores for each contestant are converted to a percentage of all scores given out, and the same with the votes from viewers. The two percentages are then added.)

    Edited to add: Now that I think about it, maybe the lesson for figure skating is that popular shows like DWTS know that the audience has no interest in being educated about how the scoring system works.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2013
  3. MacMadame

    MacMadame Cat Lady-in-Training

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    I think the lesson is clearly that IJS causes blindness, insanity and death. Or maybe it's just this thread. ;)

    Honestly, I think there is no lesson for skating. DWTS is a silly reality tv show about dancing, not ice skating, that has a competition in there somewhere in a format that is nothing like a skating competition with a scoring system that is nothing like any scoring system ever used by skating. The lesson is that reality tv shows are popular, ballroom dancing is fun to watch and easy enough to learn to a level that's watchable, and Tom Bergeron is a good MC.
     
  4. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    Since it was 2004, the scores are listed in order from lowest to highest score for technical and from the lowest to highest score for presentation separately, and the columns don't represent scores by individual judges, i.e., the judge that gave her a 5.1 technical could have given her any of the presentation scores and, even if both scores were low, the ordinal would have been based on that judges' other scores.

    From what I understand, the only way to find out ordinals, unless someone published it somewhere online, is from TV broadcasts, where tey were flashed momentarily.
     
  5. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    There were protocols published for 6.0 competitions showing the ordinals, but they weren't published online until the very last few years of 6.0 and in many cases even those pages have expired. So you'd have to work from the scores shown on TV broadcasts -- which could be misleading because if the broadcast skipped showing scores for one skater or even skipped showing that skater's performance at all, you'd only have partial information to work from. And yes, sometimes the ordinals for the 6th-place skater did mix up the medal standings.

    Or you could find someone who had been in the arena and who purchased the official protocol or who wrote down all the scores announced after the skate and posted on the wall afterward.

    Through the 2002 season, all those sources would give you scores and ordinals for each judge.

    As you note, for international events in 2003 and 2004, the technical marks were all listed low to high and the presentation marks were all listed low to high, so you couldn't line up the two marks from the same judge let alone know which judge gave which marks. AND some of the judges' scores were randomly dropped by the sekret computer.

    That was true for the scores as they were announced in the Kiss and Cry on TV and as they were published in the official protocols. No one could know what the actual ordinals were during those except for those with :sekret: access to the computer decisions.

    Just another reminder that anonymity and IJS are two totally separate issues that happened to get introduced about the same time.
     
  6. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    In the arena, they were shown in a flash and then were gone too quickly for most people to record, but I do remember discussions in the FS about how Kwan won first place ordinals from Arakawa and then how Cohen won Kwan's ordinals and another from Arakawa. I had no idea that there were protocols to be purchased or that would have been my souvenir instead of a key chain.
     
  7. pp55

    pp55 Member

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  8. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    Many thanks for the link!
     
  9. Minou

    Minou Member

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  10. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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    Who said it? No one. Here is exactly what Christine Brennan said:

    "In response, they shelved the sport's immensely popular but flawed 6.0 scoring system for an anonymous points-based system that few truly understand to this day. Even though it has produced some fairer results, this was a huge marketing mistake. The 6.0 system was reality TV before there was reality TV. It was Dancing with the Stars before anyone ever heard of the show, with the flags of the judges' countries and their scores superimposed over the skater watching in the aptly named "Kiss and Cry" area. Every TV show on earth wanted what skating had, and skating gave it all away."

    Her article is what started this thread. She doesn't say DWTS is based on figure skating or 6.0. You are reading way too much into what was intended just to be an interesting observation.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2013
  11. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    You can pretty much add the following clause to the end of that paragraph by Christine Brennan, "because it wanted to be a sport."

    Brennan's own statement in that paragraph that IJS has "produced some fairer results" ties into that.

    Meanwhile just for me personally, the last thing on earth I'd want to see is skating be run like a reality show. Gag me.
     
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  12. MacMadame

    MacMadame Cat Lady-in-Training

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    These two posts from you show me that you aren't actually reading this thread but popping in and out. If you were reading, you would know that someone did say that in this thread. The argument was made that DWTS stole it's juding system from skating and that DWTS's popularity proves that 6.0 is the better scoring system. This is not something I "read into" the article that Brennan wrote. It was an argument explicitly made in this thread.
     
  13. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    And least then we'd know without a doubt that scores were based soley on judge favoritism/personal preference, reputation judging, and on no set criteria at all. No conspiracy theory about it!
     
  14. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

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    We'd still have the right, but we just wouldn't get to.
     
  15. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it is evident that the poster MacMadame has not read the entire thread or they wouldn't be arguing back and forth with you. Sometimes you just can't win. Many of us know you are in the right, so just let them believe what they want to.
     
  16. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    For lack of anything better to do, I skimmed back through the thread. The only someone I can find who talked about the DWTS scoring and skating scoring was Giselle23. So MacMadame you seem to be saying that giselle23 didn't read her own posts. :lol:

    You've got kind of a circular discussion going on...
     
  17. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    Seriously? I want to know who MacMadame's someone is if its not giselle23 herself!
     
  18. iloveemoticons

    iloveemoticons Well-Known Member

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    And your arguments for CoP would have a lot more credibility if you had made arguments like the one kwanfan made instead of just saying "She didn't deserve them" :D I still stand by my contention that PCS is crap on a stick. Caro's gorgeous Pachelbel Canon SP from 2007 Worlds (where she landed a beautiful 3F-3T) was not 5 points worse PCS wise than her short at 2013 worlds (where she fell). It just isn't.
     
  19. AYS

    AYS Cruder than you thought

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    This was such strange exchange, I had to go back and look again. From what I can tell, giselle23 was merely saying that Brennan was saying people like a simple numerical system where judges hold up one (or two) big numbers, like 6.0 used to be (but "greatly simplified" on DWTS, quote from giselle's initial post). That was the analogy here, which I believe MacMadame, you have misinterpreted (in addition to forgetting that the person you are arguing was the one that reiterated the point from Brennan to begin with).

    Brennan (and giselle) never claimed the dwts and 6.0 systems are the same system. The point simply was that the general public like seeing judges hold up a large, simple number. That and only that was the point being made by bringing up dwts.

    Of course in 6.0 in skating, this was followed by complex ordinal gyrations, but the general population rarely concerned themselves with that...they simply liked seeing those numbers held up. In fact, they were held up on little placards in the old days, just like dwts.

    Just wow. :lol:
     
  20. MacMadame

    MacMadame Cat Lady-in-Training

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    I couldn't remember who it was and I did go back and look but I couldn't find it. You are more patient than I am, that is for sure. I can see now where the confusion is. I do not believe that "Dancing with the Stars use a similar numerical ranking". Unless by "similar" you mean "they both use numbers" which is taking the word similar to a ridiculous level. And Brennan did say that apparently. Because she's an idiot.

    Well I was going to but kwanfan made it for me as did at least two other people. No need to repeat all that and no way I could do it as well as kwanfan (in particular) could anyway. :lol:

    Most of the arguments I've seen against CoP here either glorify 6.0 for something it never was, complain about CoP for things that 6.0 did too, use examples that show that the poster clearly doesn't understand the scoring system (and sometimes not even what they are seeing in terms of the skating) or blame CoP for factors that would have happened anyway (TV ratings, losing interesting in skating personally).

    Your particular example: "PCS are being used to hold skaters up/down based on reputation and time in the system" was a common complaint with 6.0 as well for example. I think it was equally valid under 6.0 as it is under CoP. Which is to say, it sometimes happened or seemed to happen, but mostly the youngsters who were being "held down" had inferior presentation and skating skills and deserved those lower marks based on what was put out on the ice.

    I do see some valid complaints about CoP. The one that troubles me the most about it is that it doesn't do a good job of marking when "the whole is greater than the sum of the parts." That one troubles me the most because I think it's the hardest to solve. I think it can be solved though via the PCS. To me, the whole is part of the PE mark and the SS mark. I also think that, because skating is a sport and most skaters are not really great "artistes" that it doesn't happen the majority of the time. Which is part of why it's not a deal breaker for me. I can see why it might be for some though. Then again, just having a scoring system at all is a deal breaker for some.

    Most of the other issues that I see are not issues of CoP but of the individual table of values. UR are dinged too much IMO, for example . But that's not specific to CoP. You could just change the rules to make UR only get marked if the jump was less than x.5 times around (or even x.3 or x.4) for anything but the axel and that problem would go away. You don't have to get rid of CoP to fix that one. Same with jump/falls/spins/etc. being under/over valued/penalized. Just change the values in the tables and that can be fixed. No need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
     
  21. Prancer

    Prancer Jawwalking Staff Member

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    You have no rights on a discussion board.

    I would like to see Christine Brennan provide some evidence that 6.0 was "immensely popular." A claim is just a claim until it has support.
     
  22. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    How draconian.
     
  23. Prancer

    Prancer Jawwalking Staff Member

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    :EVILLE:
     
  24. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    Oppressor!
     
  25. Prancer

    Prancer Jawwalking Staff Member

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    Are you not still here, posting away, Madame Prolific?

    But only because The Powers That Be allow it, and don't you forget it.
     
  26. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    I never do. :saint:
     
  27. Asli

    Asli Well-Known Member

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    Was there any discussion among fans about the 6.0 system while it was used? I mean, not about the politics or conspiracy theories, but about the judging system itself?

    My impression was that the 6.0 system was neither popular nor unpopular. It was just there and we thought it would always be. There was nothing to compare it to.
     
  28. Prancer

    Prancer Jawwalking Staff Member

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    I think that is pretty much true, although there was always a lot of discussion about how the system needed to be reformed.

    I think that rather argues against the system being popular, but perhaps I am not remembering expressions of fondness for the system.
     
  29. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    FSU was here when discussions of a new system were going on. It would be interesting to dig those up if they are still in the archives. My impression is that there were people who favored adopting a new system and others who vehemently opposed the idea, certain it would ruin skating. That's not directly related to whether 6.0 was popular in of itself of course.
     
  30. flowerpower

    flowerpower Well-Known Member

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    I haven't read the whole thread. ;) So maybe someone has made this point already.

    Can you imagine how many 6.0 judging decisions would have been eviscerated on this forum, and the online world in general, if the internet, various social media platforms, etc. had existed back in those days? It would have been brutal.

    CoP is more analytically evidence-based, but it's far from perfect. No judging system can ever be perfect in this sport. IMO either we accept this, enjoy the wonderful performances of the top skaters in each discipline, and try to be philosophical when judging decisions have some merits on both sides of the coin, or abandon the sport. Maybe that's where we're headed, and I think that would be very unfortunate - it's a sport of great athleticism and beauty, and there's nothing like the feeling of flying across the ice. To see what today's skaters can do is simply amazing. JMO.
     
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