Figure Skating Champions SURVIVOR: Men's ROUND 7

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Vagabond, Jul 8, 2012.

?

Who is the weakest link

Poll closed Jul 12, 2012.
  1. Ilia Kulik

    97 vote(s)
    32.8%
  2. Alexei Yagudin

    11 vote(s)
    3.7%
  3. Evgeni Plushenko

    56 vote(s)
    18.9%
  4. Stéphane Lambiel

    66 vote(s)
    22.3%
  5. Daisuke Takahashi

    66 vote(s)
    22.3%
  1. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2002
    Messages:
    13,871
    ^It's true though; going on skating skills alone, Abt was better than Yagudin and Plushenko. If the criteria is to take away medals and jumping ability, then he's up there.

    I still think it would be interesting to do a non-WC/OGM survivor with Sandhu, Abt, Savoie, Klimkin, Abbot, etc. Any interest in that when this game is over?
  2. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,366
    The same for me. Only the other way round ;).

    Yes, certainly. I haven't seen enough from those skaters (except Abbott) to vote myself yet, but it will be very interesting to see how other people rate them. I'll also try to watch more videos of their performances then.
  3. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    12,385
    Abt : slow with a lot of 2-foot skating, but very good looking. :p
  4. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,324
    ?!? No that absolutely is not true. Especialy regarding Yagudin. Yagudin did everything better than Abt. Much better choreography, better footwork, more musicality, better performance skills, more speed and power, more polished and much better lines (Tracy Wilson said she loved the rawness of Abt's skating but it was jerky and very unrefined, I concur), way stronger jumps obviously. Compare their interpretations to the Gladiator in 2001, Abt's even if he did the jumps looked like an amateurish program next to Yagudin's masterful work and bigger than life performances. I dont even see the better skating skills really, but even if he did it wouldnt make him better, that is like saying Yuka Sato is better than Michelle Kwan since her skating skills are better (which they are, even though Michelle's are also excellent).

    Why on earth take away jumping ability either. It is one thing to say take away medals and just look at the skater, but actual jumping ability (not just consistency, although that too) is a huge part of being a "better" skater. Are we now saying skating skills are all that matter to who is a better skater, and jumps are in some seperate category that have no value to the level of a skater, only results, while every other aspect of the sport- spins, footwork, interpretation, line, expression, spirals, are in some netherland out of nowhere.

    Would a clean Abt ever beat a clean Yagudin or Plushenko? Of course not. Would anyone ever saw he was robbed or deserved to either. Again, of course not. The 2002 Europeans is not an example as Yagudin was very subpar in his LP there, which is the only reason Abt who gave the performance of his life that day had some wuzrobbed cries, although to most who know the sport still not even merited ones.


    Exactly, he wasnt that good period. I think some are confusing his prettiness for his skating ability somehow. I dont even see how lunging long crossovers (often jerky and clunky) represent great skating skills either.
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2012
  5. Jaana

    Jaana Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2002
    Messages:
    3,880
    And also definetely better than Yagudin, in my opinion.
  6. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    4,844
    I adored Yagudin back in the day, but he most certainly does not have better musicality than Alexander Abt.
  7. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,324
    Like I said compare their interpretations of the Gladiator in 2001 and Abt's is a complete joke next to Yagudin's. One makes you feel like you are out on the battlefield literally, as Beverly Smith a Canadian reporter said you could see blood out there while he performed it, while Abt's would have been a good time for a bathroom break. Even Stojko's Gladiator program that year was more interesting, good grief. Abt better musicality, LOL! When did Abt ever have programs that were performed like Yagudin's Gladiator in 2001, Yagudin's Winter in 2002, Yagudin's Man In the Iron Mask in 2002, Yagudin's 1999 short program.
  8. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2002
    Messages:
    4,344
    What exactly was so impressive about Yagudin's footwork? All those three turns and mohawks? Granted, the demand of the more complex turns was much lower but I never thought Alexei had naturally quick feet. I thought even Plushenko had better footwork, lighter and quicker on his feet. And as it turned out, Plushenko didn't really have an easy time adapting to the new demand of COP style footwork, and I have a feeling that Yagudin most likely would have an even harder time. OTOH, Abt had some of the best edgework back in the days. Long, deep and sweeping. He would probably do best under COP out of the three.

    Yes, Yagudin had some great, audience friendly programs. But in retrospect I really wouldn't call them masterpieces the way I'd call Abbott, Savoie, Lambiel, or Takahashi's programs masterpieces.
  9. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    4,844
    Why should that be the basis of comparison? Yags was lovely, but he didn't have much of a range when it came to musical interpretation, and a lot of his programs were quite similar thematically. Of course, what he did do he did very well; as I said, I'm a fan. But when it comes to musical interpretation and range, Abt wins. And his programs at 2002 Euros were fabulous. The end.
  10. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,324
    There are some hilarious people on this forum. Actually people arguing Abt > Yagudin in musicality or skating ability. Freaking hilarious. I am not even going to bother any further into this, as I am going to die laughing soon if I can continue reading anymore of this.
  11. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2002
    Messages:
    4,344
    What exactly was so much more musical about Yagudin than Abt? :confused: Have you seen his 2001worlds SP?
  12. casken

    casken Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2004
    Messages:
    6,317
  13. DaiKozOda

    DaiKozOda Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2011
    Messages:
    518
  14. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2011
    Messages:
    1,475
    Abt was definitely underrated but one of the best, your making me miss him :(
    Abt had the best edges , lines and camel spins ever and his skating he is like gliding in the air. :swoon:
    oh and the never ending legs are to die for !!!!

    now for the votes ! more votes for False God Yagudin !!! :soapbox:
  15. senorita

    senorita New Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2008
    Messages:
    1,945
    Me my fav program of Yagudin is Borken arrow, maybe an unpopular opinion, but I just love it. Especially Skate Canada or Skate America version, I dont remember. And Revolutionary etude and of course Winter. I also think Tosca suited him well.
    But if you look at his repertoire he didnt have such range of music choices or performance style. The movie scores always carry away the audience but I like the above programs more.. I liked MITM but it is the music that gives goosebumbs, I liked it even from KVDP this season and Bazarova/Larionov last season.
  16. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2002
    Messages:
    13,871
    Well that was my point, because someone had brought up the idea that if you take away Plushenko's medals and his jumps, he is not that good. I wouldn't take that out of the equation, but if you do, then you get results like Abt being better than Plush.



    Abt's crossovers jerky and clunky? We seriously are not watching the same skater then.

    And I am sooooooo sick of people saying that Abt is only liked because of his looks; how come they never say that about Joubert and Kulik? One of my favorite skaters is Alban Preaubert, so no.
  17. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    4,844
    I've lost track of how many times I've read about Joubert getting points and winning over fans because he's good-looking and the male version of Kiira Korpi. Far more often than I've heard the same about Abt, perhaps because Joubert is still competing and has had better results in his career.

    I watched Abt's Rach 2/3 program tonight for the first time in ages. Fabulous - though I'll always have a soft spot for the Artsakh SP from that season, as it was the first time I really noticed him. I also watched his Gasolina EX from the 2006 Red Square gala, further proof that he can skate to anything and make it look good ;)
  18. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2011
    Messages:
    3,536
    You seem to be referring to me, but you are misrepresenting what I said. I said that Plushenko's competitive record was largely due to the fact he is such a good jumper and that if you took away his jumps and looked at the rest of his performances, he's much better than Stojko but not on the same level as Takahashi or Lambiel. I think that's a fair assessment, but how much emphasis anyone places on any particular factor is up to that person.

    I'm certainly not ignoring jumping ability or competitive record. Those are the main reasons why I didn't vote for Stojko before Urmanov or Eldredge. However, I don't think that Plushenko's jumping ability and competitive record necessarily mean he should stay in longer than Lambiel or Takahashi. I haven't made up my mind yet, and I won't until the next round starts.
  19. Zokko!

    Zokko! Comansnala?

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2003
    Messages:
    2,314
    Imho Abt was overrated, most of all by his (female???) fans, who fell for his innocent milk-boy image. They prefer to see him in an always victim/hero-role. Although probably more talented than Yagudin and Plushenko, in fact, most of the time, he failed because lack of discipline, diligence PLUS too much :smokin: and :rockstar: ...
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2012
  20. unicorn

    unicorn Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2011
    Messages:
    241

    Well even Kulik himself said something like "If you are a good skater, that's good. If you are a good looking good skater, that's great." :rofl:
  21. unicorn

    unicorn Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2011
    Messages:
    241
    I am just joking. :lol: I don't really think that Joubert got high pcs because he's good looking. It seems that judges always appreciate more about jumps than other elements. If someone's skating skills are not totally bad and can land jumps, judges tend to give him higher pcs even if the program is empty. But if someone skates to a more difficult program, but often messes up jumps, his pcs would have a higher chance to be underrated. One of the exemples is Abbott, by the way, he's good looking too.
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2012
  22. unicorn

    unicorn Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2011
    Messages:
    241
    Oh, that cracked me up. I like Plushy's jumps, but his footwork, his strokes and crossovers always look like an old lady trying to run fast, but runs with small small steps, no flow on the ice. His upper body always looks funny to me when he does the footwook. :lol: I still think he has a better chance to beat Chan than Takahashi though.
  23. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,324
    If Plushenko return continues into a major event at some point (Worlds or Olympics, which I wouldnt be surprised if it doesnt) he has no chance to beat Chan barring a 4 or 5 splatfest from Chan. A clean Plushenko couldnt even beat a quadless Lysacek in Vancouver, and Chan today is a far better skater in everyway than Lysacek, and has the Worlds best quads (when landed) to boot. Add to that the judges are absolutely infatuated with Chan and are overmarking him even more significantly than they did Evan in the year after he won Worlds, and you get the picture.

    Chan is prone to error, but his errors werent even enough to allow a clean or close to clean LP from Takahashi at both the 2012 Worlds and 2012 GP final to beat him the LP phase. So they sure as heck wouldnt be enough for an old Plushenko who could never match Takahashi from those events at this point. Takahashi has actually been jumping fairly consistently lately, which would be an old Plushenko's only possible edge over Takahashi, so with that said Takahashi right now has a better shot vs Chan or anyone else than old Plushenko, although even that isnt very much at all with the judges 30 point Chanflation per competition.
  24. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2002
    Messages:
    4,344
    What's so funny about this? All I said was that he was better with his feet than Yagudin in the footwork, and to me Yagudin's footwork was not super impressive to begin with. So I'm not necessarily complementing Plushenko either.

    I'm not even that big of an Abt fan, but anyone claiming Yagudin to have better lines than Abt seriously don't know what they are talking about. Despite all his accomplishments and being one of the all time bests, Yagudin really didn't have the best lines or posture.
  25. unicorn

    unicorn Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2011
    Messages:
    241

    Well looks funny to me.
  26. t.mann

    t.mann New Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2011
    Messages:
    256
    Definitely. JMO.


    Agree.
    Kozuka too.
  27. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,324
    LOL NOBODY said he did. Better than Abt does not = best. We were all talking about Alexander freaking Abt here, not John Curry.
  28. ks1227

    ks1227 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2002
    Messages:
    3,838
    :respec: I think that would be a lot more interesting than this one actually! People would have to justify their choices, not just rely on medals!

    I'm not getting into the whole "Abt vs Yagudin" debate. But looking at Abt's skating on its own I don't think it's fair to say that Abt was slow, at least not in his better performances. He was actually capable of generating a lot of speed without relying as much on crossovers as a lot of other skaters (which perhaps made him look slower on TV than in the rink). Definitely underrated. I agree about the 2-foot skating though, even in some of his better performances.
  29. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2002
    Messages:
    4,344
    Um, no.
  30. senorita

    senorita New Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2008
    Messages:
    1,945
    We know he cant beat Chan and Daisuke, so what?He still has the 3rd best Lp score of the season, and the 3rd total score too and that with a quadless sp at Euros. He gets overscored too you know ;), it is not just Chan.
    The being old caramel is getting old though, he is way past his prime age but the rest arent getting any younger, we are not talking about Hanyu generation, Daisuke, Abott and a bunch more will be 28 and 29 in Sochi, older than what old Plushenko was in Vancouver, and I see Daisuke becoming better every season.
    Although Chan will be in the ideal for OGM age;)
  31. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

    Joined:
    May 9, 2002
    Messages:
    11,239
    He wasn't passionate like Yagudin, but what he did was always so pure and effortless. His inconsistency was unfortunate, but it really didn't take away the beauty of his skating for me. His Olympic programs were to die for and for me much more enjoyable than those by Plushenko or Goebel. My star of SLC Olympics were definitely Yagudin, Honda and Abt. How I wish that was the podium.
  32. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

    Joined:
    May 9, 2002
    Messages:
    11,239
    His speed was deceptive, like Kwan's, just because he was so effortless.