Figure Skating Champions SURVIVOR: Men's ROUND 7

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Vagabond, Jul 8, 2012.

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Who is the weakest link

Poll closed Jul 12, 2012.
  1. Ilia Kulik

    97 vote(s)
    32.8%
  2. Alexei Yagudin

    11 vote(s)
    3.7%
  3. Evgeni Plushenko

    56 vote(s)
    18.9%
  4. Stéphane Lambiel

    66 vote(s)
    22.3%
  5. Daisuke Takahashi

    66 vote(s)
    22.3%
  1. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    re: Chan

    For some

    a) He's overmarked
    b) He's not a great interpreter of music
    c) His body of work pales next to some of these skaters
    d) His specific skill set isn't something that is all that important to some
    e) He's up against some really phenomenal skaters.
    f) His on-ice inconsistency (regardless of the results)

    arguably contributed to why he could make the top half of the last twelve champions, but go no further. Truthfully, I'm rather glad he didn't make the top five, because this is the first time I'd have to vote for him, and as an uber, I'd rather not.
     
  2. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    ^^ except for (f), the same applies even more to Plushenko. :p
     
  3. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    For those who don't just want to count medals and titles, I offer one more criterion:

    Imagine all the remaining skaters compete together in a competition where they did exactly the same elements. Now, who do you give the lowest second mark / PCS / GOE to?
     
  4. fscric

    fscric Active Member

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    Poor Lambiel! I predict after he's voted off, it will be Plushenko, then Yagudin.
     
  5. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    You think Takahashi will win? It seems pretty unlikely.

    Well, this is subjective, so several of these points could apply to anyone. The point was that a lot of people were applying them specifically to Chan.

    I'm not a huge fan of Plushenko, but he has had an incredible career. Chan has had some good seasons. That's hardly the same. And I agree that Plush has been overmarked at times, but not to the point of winning things he probably shouldn't have. Can't say the same for some of the other skaters in the poll (including Yagudin).

    I'd be more inclined to consider this hypothetical competition if we assume the skaters will revert to form technically. Some skaters in this list have been a lot more consistent technically over their careers, thus the superior results.
     
  6. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    I can't 'splain it. I think Dai is the most watchable skater in the world today...and has been since the days of Paul Wylie..JMHO..
     
  7. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

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    I almost agree. Except that for me Lambiel was not/is not any less watchable. Perhaps he was a bit less "watchable'' than Dai is today when he won his two worlds, but that's natural, since he was 19 and 20 then, but Dai is 26 now. Later though, despite less successful skates and competitions, Stephane became at least equal to the current Daisuke - like here :).

    And, now, watching also Stephane's exhibition programs, I realize that he is probably an even more versatile performer than Dai. That all imho, of course.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2012
  8. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    I'm not altogether sure why people think Plushenko is necessarily deserving of making it to the final.

    Other than jumping ability, which is an important consideration, and competitive record (largely tied to being such a good jumper), I don't think there is much to make him he a "stronger link" than Takahashi or Lambiel. Those two are the better skaters, the better spinners, and the better interpreters of music.

    Also, whereas Kulik's abbreviated career makes him a weak link, Plushenko's career is, if anything, less impressive than it could be (in my opinion, at least), because he stayed in so long. His programs between when he withdrew from Worlds in 2005 and this past season were marked by scratchy landings and empty choreography. In 2011-12, he finally started to improve his choreography and put in some transitions, but the programs still weren't in same the league as Lambiel and Takahashi's.

    I'm going to have to do a lot of thinking in the next to rounds because I think it is a close call between those three skaters.
     
  9. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Interesting post.

    The cool thing about Plush is that you could totally discount everything after 2006 (I realize you're including the 2006 season in your list of seasons he had poor programs), and he would still have the second best record on the list (behind Yagudin). In fact you can cut his 2006 OGM out and he still has a better record than many guys on this list, including Takahashi and Lambiel.

    The extra Olympic medal and European titles (2010-12) are just gravy (which pushes him toward the all time greats, IMO). So, since the criteria are open, you may consider judging him just on his best years, if you want.

    Everyone will judge on their own criteria, of course. Some people would surely consider Urmanov to have better musicality and basic skating than some of the men who outlasted him, but he was eliminated early. So some will opt for Lambiel and Takahashi due to their non-jumping elements, while others will opt to keep Plushy because of his competitive nerve. There's no right or wrong answer.

    I don't think of Plushy as just a jumper, either, but as a very entertaining, charismatic skater who totally commands the ice. He received 6.0s under the old system (and was the first to receive one for artistry in the worlds QR, IIRC). I'm pretty sure he has received level 4 footwork, and he was the first guy to do a Biellman spin, so he does have some impressive non-jump stuff in his repertoire, even if that's not his forte. I totally understand if some find Lambiel and/or Takahashi better in these aspects (as do I, in some areas), but I don't think Plush is totally devoid of any artistry.

    I would also humbly note that even in his non-peak year of 2010, he almost won, and did beat Takahashi and Lambiel. ;) And when he was dominant, he was really dominant, winning by huge margins.
     
  10. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Indeed he has, back when tech panels were quite stingy with the step levels. And ITA with your assessment of his skating and career.
     
  11. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Nope, Plushenko is not totally devoid of artistry, but of the original twelve skaters, I'd rate him in the lower half on that criterion -- clearly above Stojko, but somewhere around Eldredge, Lysacek, and Joubert, a little below Urmanov, Kulik, and Chan, and well below Buttle, Lambiel, Takahashi, and Yagudin. (That's just my opinion, of course, and I can quite see how someone would switch around my middle seven skaters.)

    I am well aware that Plushenko has an outstanding competitive record, but in that respect he's somewhat similar to Stojko. Regardless of what the CoP protocols in the second half of his career might say, he won because of his jumps. Take away the jumps, and what do you have? You've got a lot more than you do with Stojko, but a lot less than you do with Lambiel and Takahashi. OTOH, look at only the jumps, and you have a lot more from Plushenko than from those two. So, I think that voting for any of these three as the weakest link in the next round would be perfectly reasonable.
     
  12. Jaana

    Jaana Well-Known Member

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    In the last round should be Yagudin and Plushenko, based on merits the latter should win (from Olympics a gold medal + two silver medals so far).
     
  13. senorita

    senorita New Member

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    He has gained more standing ovations than both of the rest not that Lambiel and Daisuke dont deserve every standing ovation there is.

    I cringe to the thought that Plush is like Stojko, but to each their own so I ll pass.:p
    Plush with his not so sophisticated artistry has made the sport rather more open or popular to mainstream audience, anyone who was at euros this year knows it was all about him.
     
  14. Mafke

    Mafke New Member

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    Let's be serious here, I've never been a Plushenko fan (strong understatement) but there's no denying his track record or accomplishments.

    He should be a lock for one of the top two spots here (even if I would rather he not be the final 'winner')

    But.... people here were pretty quick to deny Stojko his accomplishments (also not a Stojko fan) so there's obviously a different kind of logic going on here so who knows....
     
  15. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    I think a lot of people simply don't merely take accomplishments as the be all and end all of a skater's being. If you see past the medals, it's not hard to see why many people think Takahashi and Lambiel are better skaters than Plushenko.
     
  16. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    So is anyone considering voting Yagudin out before Takahashi and Lambiel? (Serious question). Yags is closer to Plushy when it comes to spins, footwork, and transitions than he is to those guys. (I think Yags is more musical and has better P/E though).
     
  17. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Not before the last round. If, however, either Takahashi or Lambiel makes it to the Final Two, I'll have to think long and hard about that. Yagudin never competed under CoP, so there is a bit of apples-and-oranges going on. Yes, there was a bit of apples-and-oranges going on with comparing Urmanov, Eldredge, and Stojko to Chan, but that was with radically different grades of fruit. :2faced:
     
  18. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    I like Lambiel..a lot. He has charisma and talent. I just happen to enjoy Dai more than any other skater on the planet..and have since about 2005. I find him to be totally mesmerizing.
     
  19. senorita

    senorita New Member

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    You can count other facts too, like his new jumping combos, his young age competing, his flexibility, the longevity, the comebacks, the charisma etc. But Lambiel and Takahashi are better skaters indeed and in terms of skating they are better skaters than Yagudin too. But Plushenko and Yagudin were better competitors. If you see past medals, Abt was the better skater too.
     
  20. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    :rofl:
     
  21. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    ^It's true though; going on skating skills alone, Abt was better than Yagudin and Plushenko. If the criteria is to take away medals and jumping ability, then he's up there.

    I still think it would be interesting to do a non-WC/OGM survivor with Sandhu, Abt, Savoie, Klimkin, Abbot, etc. Any interest in that when this game is over?
     
  22. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

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    The same for me. Only the other way round ;).

    Yes, certainly. I haven't seen enough from those skaters (except Abbott) to vote myself yet, but it will be very interesting to see how other people rate them. I'll also try to watch more videos of their performances then.
     
  23. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Abt : slow with a lot of 2-foot skating, but very good looking. :p
     
  24. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    ?!? No that absolutely is not true. Especialy regarding Yagudin. Yagudin did everything better than Abt. Much better choreography, better footwork, more musicality, better performance skills, more speed and power, more polished and much better lines (Tracy Wilson said she loved the rawness of Abt's skating but it was jerky and very unrefined, I concur), way stronger jumps obviously. Compare their interpretations to the Gladiator in 2001, Abt's even if he did the jumps looked like an amateurish program next to Yagudin's masterful work and bigger than life performances. I dont even see the better skating skills really, but even if he did it wouldnt make him better, that is like saying Yuka Sato is better than Michelle Kwan since her skating skills are better (which they are, even though Michelle's are also excellent).

    Why on earth take away jumping ability either. It is one thing to say take away medals and just look at the skater, but actual jumping ability (not just consistency, although that too) is a huge part of being a "better" skater. Are we now saying skating skills are all that matter to who is a better skater, and jumps are in some seperate category that have no value to the level of a skater, only results, while every other aspect of the sport- spins, footwork, interpretation, line, expression, spirals, are in some netherland out of nowhere.

    Would a clean Abt ever beat a clean Yagudin or Plushenko? Of course not. Would anyone ever saw he was robbed or deserved to either. Again, of course not. The 2002 Europeans is not an example as Yagudin was very subpar in his LP there, which is the only reason Abt who gave the performance of his life that day had some wuzrobbed cries, although to most who know the sport still not even merited ones.


    Exactly, he wasnt that good period. I think some are confusing his prettiness for his skating ability somehow. I dont even see how lunging long crossovers (often jerky and clunky) represent great skating skills either.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2012
  25. Jaana

    Jaana Well-Known Member

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    And also definetely better than Yagudin, in my opinion.
     
  26. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    I adored Yagudin back in the day, but he most certainly does not have better musicality than Alexander Abt.
     
  27. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Like I said compare their interpretations of the Gladiator in 2001 and Abt's is a complete joke next to Yagudin's. One makes you feel like you are out on the battlefield literally, as Beverly Smith a Canadian reporter said you could see blood out there while he performed it, while Abt's would have been a good time for a bathroom break. Even Stojko's Gladiator program that year was more interesting, good grief. Abt better musicality, LOL! When did Abt ever have programs that were performed like Yagudin's Gladiator in 2001, Yagudin's Winter in 2002, Yagudin's Man In the Iron Mask in 2002, Yagudin's 1999 short program.
     
  28. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

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    What exactly was so impressive about Yagudin's footwork? All those three turns and mohawks? Granted, the demand of the more complex turns was much lower but I never thought Alexei had naturally quick feet. I thought even Plushenko had better footwork, lighter and quicker on his feet. And as it turned out, Plushenko didn't really have an easy time adapting to the new demand of COP style footwork, and I have a feeling that Yagudin most likely would have an even harder time. OTOH, Abt had some of the best edgework back in the days. Long, deep and sweeping. He would probably do best under COP out of the three.

    Yes, Yagudin had some great, audience friendly programs. But in retrospect I really wouldn't call them masterpieces the way I'd call Abbott, Savoie, Lambiel, or Takahashi's programs masterpieces.
     
  29. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Why should that be the basis of comparison? Yags was lovely, but he didn't have much of a range when it came to musical interpretation, and a lot of his programs were quite similar thematically. Of course, what he did do he did very well; as I said, I'm a fan. But when it comes to musical interpretation and range, Abt wins. And his programs at 2002 Euros were fabulous. The end.
     
  30. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    There are some hilarious people on this forum. Actually people arguing Abt > Yagudin in musicality or skating ability. Freaking hilarious. I am not even going to bother any further into this, as I am going to die laughing soon if I can continue reading anymore of this.