Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Vagabond, Jul 8, 2012.
I can make the next round tougher, if you want.
It doesn't look like people are more bothered by Stephane's lack of a triple axel than others lack of a quad. Lysacek and Buttle, they've been voted out. Oda and Weir, not even on the list. The only one here who has a lower quad success rate is Takahashi, and he's getting more votes than Lambiel. The result is just the opposite of what you said.
So he is *facepalm*. Multiple World Champion, then.
But then, I suppose, you look at someone like Plushenko, someone so great and talented and incredible...and he's only won it three times. So I don't know that World Championships can tell the tale of a whole career.
That's the problem with Dai and to a lesser extent Stephane - considering their talent and abilities, their record could have been better. Looking at medals and wins, some of the eliminated skaters certainly surpass them.
Plushenko didn't compete at Worlds the years he medalled at the Olympics; I'm sure he could have had a more impressive record had a done so. And of course he WD in 2005.
Yeah, Plush only has 3 world titles, the slacker... but then he only lost the title 3 times, as well (and all to Yags).
Seriously, with the exception of Kulik, who took his OGM and split, the other four guys were hampered by injuries. Yagudin had to retire due to his hip, Lambiel gave up on the 3A due to (groin? abdomen?) injury, Dai's quad used to be a lot more consistant before his ACL injury and Plush, well, we all know he's held together by duct tape and gum.
Like who? Stojko of course but who else. I dont consider any of Eldredge, Urmanov, Joubert, or Buttle to have had better careers than Lambiel or Takahashi. Lysacek and Chan might be considered by some to have better careers than Takahashi but I dont think either had a better career than Lambiel. Lambiel's extra World title + Olympic silver atleast equal Lysacek's Olympic Gold, and Lambiel has an extra grand prix final title. Chan doesnt even have an Olympic medal yet.
I said medals and wins. Stephane Lambiel especially does not have that good of a competitive record, because he didn't do all that well in the first few years of his career and skipped a lot of events in the latter part of it. And two of his biggest achievements - the first World title and the Olympic silver- came in poorly skated events in which even he wasn't that good. Dai's record is better, but still does not match his talent, IMO. One problem is that neither is/was a very consistent jumper (and Dai is prone to URs), and their injury issues probably haven't helped.
Anyway - Stojko, of course. Joubert has a boatload of medals, including three European golds to Stephane's zero - think about it, Sarah Meier has more Euro titles than Stephane, and as many medals. In fact, Joubert has more (senior) ISU Championship medals than Stephane and Dai combined; you can even throw in their Olys medals and he will still have more medals than both of them together. Eldredge also won a lot of medals in his career, though fewer as he did not have a continental championship to compete in until late in his career. Chan's record is similar to that of Lambiel and Takahashi - maybe even a bit better - despite having been around for a shorter time.
You know, between this and my earlier defense of Takahashi, I believe I have talked myself into voting for Lambiel in the next round.
Thank you. Bu the first one is Plushenko's 2001 SP again, and the second is 2005 FS .
A double elimination? Nothing tough there, though. It will leave us with Yagudin an Plushenko anyway - just a bit sooner than without the double elimination. Besides, Takahashi and Lambiel are so equal overall, that they deserve to go together.
Now I probably have convinced you not to make it a double elimination .
Voted for Kulik again. The least impressive medal record, a shorter competitive career + I don't see anything special in his style, although it was nice (at least when it comes to competitive programs - I haven't seen that much of his professional performances).
Next one will be tough enough on its own.
I agree. It will be tougher the normal way than it would be with a double elimination.
I predict right now that if next week is a double elimination, Plushenko would go as one of the two choices.
I fixed the Lambiel bonus videos. Thank you, lauravvv.
As for the possibility of a double elimination.... If I do it, everyone will get only one vote, so using it to "save" somebody will be a lot harder to do.
By the way, I think Plushenko may be vulnerable next week even if it's a single elimination.
As for this week, IMHO it's clearly Kulik's time to go. Whatever his comparative strengths, he didn't compete at the top level long enough or rack up enough major victories to warrant his staying in another round against the likes of these.
No double eliminations! It's just starting to get really interesting! And the off season has a ways to go...
I wonder where the Kulik votes will go.... if they're anti-Russian votes, I would assume Plushy, but I don't think that the Kulik voters are anti-Russian, I think they're based on his relatively weaker record. Kulik is also considered "artistic" moreso than Plush, so if these voters are willing to vote out more artistic skaters based on a weaker record, then that would imply they will switch to Takahashi, who will have the weakest record left.
This Kulik vote will go to Labiel, I think. I have never beena fan of Plush, but his record really speaks for itself and I feel that in all good conscience I couldn't vote for him until it's him and Yags
I'd vote Lambiel over Takahashi just because Stephane's career is over and Daisuke's isn't, and I'm hoping Daisuke might snap up a few more (preferably gold) medals in what is left of his career. For me Kulik would have been out much sooner, and Chan would still be in.
I am not so sure. All the Kulik voters will go somewhere. I think that Cherub721 (as quoted below) is right, and most of them are voting for Kulik based on his weaker record and overall achievements, as did I. Which also means that they are more likely to vote reasonably - that is - for Takahashi or Lambiel, not for Plushenko.
Or Lambiel, as I think the voting is not just about medals, but also about overall achievements - including longevity, other excellent skates that also could have medaled, or medaled higher than they did, and so on. That is very much about Takahashi.
At the moment, there is a two-way tie for second (i.e., second from the bottom or fourth overall) between Takahashi and Lambiel, with 44 votes apiece, with Plushenko right behind with 42 votes. Even if Kulik is eliminated this round, it could be any one of these three to go next.
Yagudin is currently sitting pretty with just 6 votes.
He is clearly going to win and I think he deserves it, but I hope it's Plushy at the end with him and there's a good discussion, cause I think there are some arguments for Plushy (a better Olympic record than Yags and more innovation in jump combos). Why can't a bunch of Plushy ubers register already?
Why can't FSU voters just be a little more objective and stop voting against their favorites' rivals out of spite? I haven't really enjoyed Plush's skating that much these past few years, but his record speaks for itself and he deserves to be here a few more rounds at the very least. I'd argue that maybe he even deserves to win over Yags, though I definitely don't see that happening.
He's Canadian, and many people on this board don't like Canadians
They'd probably rather register at the forums on Plushy's website and be among other ubers than register at a place where he's considered the most evil thing in skating and it's considered a sin to like him.
I agree. It should be Plushenko and Yagudin as the final two. Plushy won't win, but he should definitely be final two. His record is simply incredible, you have to admire his determination to continue, his longevity, and his incredible consistency. He's probably had fewer falls across his entire Senior career than Chan has had in two seasons.
a) He's overmarked
b) He's not a great interpreter of music
c) His body of work pales next to some of these skaters
d) His specific skill set isn't something that is all that important to some
e) He's up against some really phenomenal skaters.
f) His on-ice inconsistency (regardless of the results)
arguably contributed to why he could make the top half of the last twelve champions, but go no further. Truthfully, I'm rather glad he didn't make the top five, because this is the first time I'd have to vote for him, and as an uber, I'd rather not.
^^ except for (f), the same applies even more to Plushenko.
For those who don't just want to count medals and titles, I offer one more criterion:
Imagine all the remaining skaters compete together in a competition where they did exactly the same elements. Now, who do you give the lowest second mark / PCS / GOE to?
Poor Lambiel! I predict after he's voted off, it will be Plushenko, then Yagudin.
You think Takahashi will win? It seems pretty unlikely.
Well, this is subjective, so several of these points could apply to anyone. The point was that a lot of people were applying them specifically to Chan.
I'm not a huge fan of Plushenko, but he has had an incredible career. Chan has had some good seasons. That's hardly the same. And I agree that Plush has been overmarked at times, but not to the point of winning things he probably shouldn't have. Can't say the same for some of the other skaters in the poll (including Yagudin).
I'd be more inclined to consider this hypothetical competition if we assume the skaters will revert to form technically. Some skaters in this list have been a lot more consistent technically over their careers, thus the superior results.
I can't 'splain it. I think Dai is the most watchable skater in the world today...and has been since the days of Paul Wylie..JMHO..
I almost agree. Except that for me Lambiel was not/is not any less watchable. Perhaps he was a bit less "watchable'' than Dai is today when he won his two worlds, but that's natural, since he was 19 and 20 then, but Dai is 26 now. Later though, despite less successful skates and competitions, Stephane became at least equal to the current Daisuke - like here .
And, now, watching also Stephane's exhibition programs, I realize that he is probably an even more versatile performer than Dai. That all imho, of course.
I'm not altogether sure why people think Plushenko is necessarily deserving of making it to the final.
Other than jumping ability, which is an important consideration, and competitive record (largely tied to being such a good jumper), I don't think there is much to make him he a "stronger link" than Takahashi or Lambiel. Those two are the better skaters, the better spinners, and the better interpreters of music.
Also, whereas Kulik's abbreviated career makes him a weak link, Plushenko's career is, if anything, less impressive than it could be (in my opinion, at least), because he stayed in so long. His programs between when he withdrew from Worlds in 2005 and this past season were marked by scratchy landings and empty choreography. In 2011-12, he finally started to improve his choreography and put in some transitions, but the programs still weren't in same the league as Lambiel and Takahashi's.
I'm going to have to do a lot of thinking in the next to rounds because I think it is a close call between those three skaters.
The cool thing about Plush is that you could totally discount everything after 2006 (I realize you're including the 2006 season in your list of seasons he had poor programs), and he would still have the second best record on the list (behind Yagudin). In fact you can cut his 2006 OGM out and he still has a better record than many guys on this list, including Takahashi and Lambiel.
The extra Olympic medal and European titles (2010-12) are just gravy (which pushes him toward the all time greats, IMO). So, since the criteria are open, you may consider judging him just on his best years, if you want.
Everyone will judge on their own criteria, of course. Some people would surely consider Urmanov to have better musicality and basic skating than some of the men who outlasted him, but he was eliminated early. So some will opt for Lambiel and Takahashi due to their non-jumping elements, while others will opt to keep Plushy because of his competitive nerve. There's no right or wrong answer.
I don't think of Plushy as just a jumper, either, but as a very entertaining, charismatic skater who totally commands the ice. He received 6.0s under the old system (and was the first to receive one for artistry in the worlds QR, IIRC). I'm pretty sure he has received level 4 footwork, and he was the first guy to do a Biellman spin, so he does have some impressive non-jump stuff in his repertoire, even if that's not his forte. I totally understand if some find Lambiel and/or Takahashi better in these aspects (as do I, in some areas), but I don't think Plush is totally devoid of any artistry.
I would also humbly note that even in his non-peak year of 2010, he almost won, and did beat Takahashi and Lambiel. And when he was dominant, he was really dominant, winning by huge margins.
Indeed he has, back when tech panels were quite stingy with the step levels. And ITA with your assessment of his skating and career.
Nope, Plushenko is not totally devoid of artistry, but of the original twelve skaters, I'd rate him in the lower half on that criterion -- clearly above Stojko, but somewhere around Eldredge, Lysacek, and Joubert, a little below Urmanov, Kulik, and Chan, and well below Buttle, Lambiel, Takahashi, and Yagudin. (That's just my opinion, of course, and I can quite see how someone would switch around my middle seven skaters.)
I am well aware that Plushenko has an outstanding competitive record, but in that respect he's somewhat similar to Stojko. Regardless of what the CoP protocols in the second half of his career might say, he won because of his jumps. Take away the jumps, and what do you have? You've got a lot more than you do with Stojko, but a lot less than you do with Lambiel and Takahashi. OTOH, look at only the jumps, and you have a lot more from Plushenko than from those two. So, I think that voting for any of these three as the weakest link in the next round would be perfectly reasonable.
In the last round should be Yagudin and Plushenko, based on merits the latter should win (from Olympics a gold medal + two silver medals so far).
He has gained more standing ovations than both of the rest not that Lambiel and Daisuke dont deserve every standing ovation there is.
I cringe to the thought that Plush is like Stojko, but to each their own so I ll pass.
Plush with his not so sophisticated artistry has made the sport rather more open or popular to mainstream audience, anyone who was at euros this year knows it was all about him.
Let's be serious here, I've never been a Plushenko fan (strong understatement) but there's no denying his track record or accomplishments.
He should be a lock for one of the top two spots here (even if I would rather he not be the final 'winner')
But.... people here were pretty quick to deny Stojko his accomplishments (also not a Stojko fan) so there's obviously a different kind of logic going on here so who knows....
I think a lot of people simply don't merely take accomplishments as the be all and end all of a skater's being. If you see past the medals, it's not hard to see why many people think Takahashi and Lambiel are better skaters than Plushenko.
So is anyone considering voting Yagudin out before Takahashi and Lambiel? (Serious question). Yags is closer to Plushy when it comes to spins, footwork, and transitions than he is to those guys. (I think Yags is more musical and has better P/E though).
Not before the last round. If, however, either Takahashi or Lambiel makes it to the Final Two, I'll have to think long and hard about that. Yagudin never competed under CoP, so there is a bit of apples-and-oranges going on. Yes, there was a bit of apples-and-oranges going on with comparing Urmanov, Eldredge, and Stojko to Chan, but that was with radically different grades of fruit.
I like Lambiel..a lot. He has charisma and talent. I just happen to enjoy Dai more than any other skater on the planet..and have since about 2005. I find him to be totally mesmerizing.
You can count other facts too, like his new jumping combos, his young age competing, his flexibility, the longevity, the comebacks, the charisma etc. But Lambiel and Takahashi are better skaters indeed and in terms of skating they are better skaters than Yagudin too. But Plushenko and Yagudin were better competitors. If you see past medals, Abt was the better skater too.
Separate names with a comma.