Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Vagabond, Jul 4, 2012.
I wonder if you're talking about this?
I agree that Plushenko became more rigid over time. I don't remember much about him from 97/98, but I know Plushenko at the 2002 Olympics was filled with passion and fire. In 2006, he was technically better, but just looked bored/going through the motions. Same with 2010. However, at Euros last year in his Tango de Roxanne program I did see some of the old spirit that's been missing for a long time.
Patrick's not my favorite skater, but voting him off now over all the others? Really??
I will vote for him next
I voted Kulik because really the only thing he had going was a OGM. Otherwise not a really outstanding record.
'Is', not 'was' . He is even more an artist now than he was when he competed, and his musicality has become even better. And he still excites audiences even with mistakes. But I understand you - this is about skater's competitive careers.
Skating skills never mattered that much during his prime years. He had efficient stroking, I guess. But singles skaters really didn't need to know much beyond the three turns to do well in competitions. That may be exaggeration, but you get the idea. Skaters in the era didn't have a chance to be put to test concerning their skating skills because the demands were so different. There's no denying of their accomplishments, but as far as the skating goes, both Plushenko and Yagudin are overrated IMO.
I've never really given two sh*ts about audience connection and emotion and it's nice to finally see someone besides an ice dancer actually pointing their toes, so I am not voting out Chan just yet.
I'm a Chan uber through and through, but I would have a hard time voting Yagudin, Plushenko, Takahashi or Lambiel out before him.
How could people vote for Chan before Daisuke. If any of you have seen Patrick skate live then you would understand why he gets the components marks that he does. Yeah Daisuke is good too, but Chan has a huge lead on technical ability. Chan has done 4T and 4T+3T for the past 2 seasons, which is in the same league as Yagudin. Daisuke hasnt even come close to Patrick in technical this past 2 seasons ( exception of WTT ). My vote would go for Daisuke or Lambiel now, but because Kulik is so high i had to vote for him so i can try and keep Chan in
I voted for Kulik and explained my reasoning earlier. However, I would certainly have voted Chan out before Takahashi. While technically Chan's programs are harder, they are often messy. For a skater whose skating skills are considered by many to blow those of the rest of the field out of the water, he makes a lot of silly mistakes, and not just on hard elements. Speaking of harder elements, his issues with the 3A are well known, and if you check out the Kings of Quad thread, you'll see that Chan attempts many of them but his success rate is nowhere near that of Yagudin, and is lower than Plushenko and Joubert's as well. FWIW, Takahashi doesn't have a good success rate, either.
Still, while Chan may have the edge technically, he is not even close to Takahashi's league artistically. Dai has challenged himself by working with different choreographers and having different styles of programs and music. It's not only fans who respond to what he does - his fellow skaters obviously like and admire him and his skating. Chan, so far, has had difficult but artistically generic programs. And clearly not everyone who sees him live is impressed, as could be seen from the audience reaction in Nice.
The main knock on Takahashi is that his record in major events could have been better considering his ability. Still, he won 4CC in 2008 with what was a record breaking performance - one that held for several years - won an Olympic medal less than a year after returning to the ice following ACL surgery (which certainly messed up his tech), and won his world title convincingly. Considering he had to transition from 6.0 to the IJS and then dealt with the aftermath of the ACL injury in recent years, I think he's done very well.
I don't think Dai should outlast Yagudin and Plushenko, but other than that, he's one of the best skaters in this poll; I'm not even sure he should go before Lambiel.
when is the next round ? lol
more votes for false God Yagudin
it is Blasphemy for Plushy getting more votes than Yagudin
Chan should really sit down and think hard why he can win competitions, but not hearts of skating fans.
If Yagudin is a false God, I wonder what is Plushenko...maybe a false king ?
I've seen Chan live and I don't entirely understand why he gets the PCS he does.....SS, TR, yes. But PE, IN, CH? Definitely not, especially when he skated like he did in Nice.
Absolutely agree with you.
Looks very probable that Lambiel will go before Takahashi. I bet that most of those Chan voters have Takahashi as one of their favourite (if not absolutely favourite) skaters. A lot of Kulik voters will go for Lambiel as well. Allthough I personally see no reason why Lambiel should be voted out before Takahashi. But, of course, Takahashi is a current favourite, while Lambiel was mostly competing at the time when many figure skating fans of today were not watching yet, and is slightly forgotten by others.
Although, to be objective, that triple axel speaks in Takahashi's favour, as does comparative consistency when it comes to jumps (if I remember correctly). Lambiel has two world golds and one bronze, Takahashi has one gold and two silvers one of which could have probably been a gold (I personally don't quite believe in that), but Lambiel has an Olympic silver, while Takahashi has a bronze. Takahashi has more Grand Prix golds and other Grand Prix medals, although no Grand Prix Final gold - but he very likely should have had one of them. Which would leave Lambiel with just one Grand Prix gold, instead of two. But Lambiel has taken part in less Grand Prix events than Takahashi. Takahashi has had more problems with the quad (or lack of it) than Lambiel. Their skating skills are pretty much equal, it seems. And so is their artistry. Spins - here Lambiel wins.
I know that I probably started writing about Dai and Stephane too soon - I should have left it for the ninth round. But I just worry a bit too much. To tell the truth, Daisuke is my third favourite male skater from those who are still skating (I mean both competitive and professional - the second is Kurt Browning), but Stephane is my absolutely favourite skater.
I've never quite understood how Chan gets such huge PE marks. Let's say the words the letters stand for slowly: Performance Execution. How on earth can he get marked well for that if he's falling on his backside?! Obviously he's not executing the performance very well if he keeps falling over.
Voted for Lambiel. Kulik is next, even I adore him!
Yagudin will probably win this but I will vote Plushenko over him because Plushy is still competing. Sorrryyy, Yags!
yes yes this is what I'm saying
Zhenya is the real God not Yagudin
Technical ability does NOT justify Chan's uberinflated PCS. That is what the TES is for, not the PCS, where except possibly skating skills should not be affected by technical level, except for falls (which Chan has more of then anyone). As for technical ability if he were so technically strong why cant he keep his ass off the ice in competition, and falls more than any of the other top skaters with such supposably peerless technique. His jumps are overrated and not nearly as strong as they are potrayed, and while his spins are better than Takahashi for the most part they are nothing out of the world either.
I'm in the minority here, but for me it's Plushy. Sure he has the wins, but he also had the worst spins and choreo of the bunch.
It is too early to tell. I agree however, Lambiel should stay longer than Takahashi although I love both.
Couldn't agree more. Will be voting for him 'till he's out.
I admit that Chan is impressive in some ways - although not always, since he rarely skates to his best abilities. I understand that pointed toes look better than unpointed toes. And I know that to some people all this audience connection thing looks just like easy flirting with public (which it sometimes is, but not always). But can you answer me - why should pointed toes be more important than individuality (I wont say 'originality', since it's almost impossible to be original nowadays), personal attitude and emotions? I find Chan a bit lacking in those areas, so I don't care about his pointed toes all that much. On the other hand, Lambiel almost never points his toes despite his ballet training, but I find myself not caring about it one bit - just for opposite reasons.
Pointing the toes is important especiallhy when you don't have much else to offer in terms of presentation. But when you skate like Lambiel, pointed toes become a moot point Although I did notice that he has improved in that aspect well in his last two eligible years (eg. his camel spin became a lot more elegant looking).
This. He's a great jumper and I respect that but I don't like his skating. Weak spins, terrible programs and no emotional connection.
Yes? I guess I just haven't noticed, although I've been watching his performances more than any other skater's performances . But, if seriously, I remember quite a lot of performances from the recent years where he didn't point his toes in his camel spins or in his spirals.
I don't think he's God, he got a lot of surgeries, maybe a bionic skater...