Figure Skating Champions SURVIVOR: Men's RESULTS & REACTIONS

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Vagabond, Jul 25, 2012.

  1. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    The tribe has spoken, and I didn't even have to clap anyone in the stocks for moaning about mis-voting. :)

    The winner is Alexei Yagudin, and Daisuke Takahashi is the runner up!

    The original contestants were the last twelve men to win a World or Olympic championship. The final order of finish was:

    Alexei Yagudin (1st)
    Daisuke Takahashi (2nd)
    Stéphane Lambiel (3rd)
    Evgeni Plushenko (4th)
    Ilia Kulik (5th)
    Patrick Chan (6th)
    Brian Joubert (7th)
    Jeffrey Buttle (8th)
    Elvis Stojko (9th)
    Evan Lysacek (10th)
    Todd Eldredge (11th)
    Alexei Urmanov (12th)

    I must confess that I engaged in a little strategic voting along the way. :shuffle: However, if it were up to me, I would have ranked them something like this:

    Yagudin A great competitor who was able to deliver when it mattered, with style, class, and both artistic and technical ability that was close to the top. Maybe he wasn't the best in every single category of skills, but overall, he is clearly the best.
    Chan He has the best skating skills and very difficult technical content. He isn't quite there yet on interpretation and performance and execution, but he's higher up on my list than some very, very good skaters.
    Plushenko He does not appeal to my aesthetic, he apparently cannot incorporate transitions or decent choreography into his programs and still do all his big tricks, and, like many Russians, he has crappy sit spin positions, but his competitive record is formidable and, when he's on, he has the best jumps in the business.
    Lambiel A tough call between him and Takahashi, but I give him the not because he has much more artistic range. He is one of several skaters on this list who I feel did not fully live up to his potential.
    Takahashi If he were to win the next World Championship, I would rank him above Lambiel.
    Lysacek Another tough call, but I would rank him over Kulik simply because he achieved more, and his non-jump elements are better. If he had worked on fixing his triple axel a couple of seasons earlier, this would be an easier call.
    Kulik Too much of a flash in the pan for me to rank him any higher. Nice jumps and skating skills, though.
    Joubert He gets the nod over Buttle just because he was much more consistent at the championship level. Oh, and he's a better jumper too. In my book, though, he's the biggest underachiever of these twelve.
    Buttle The best of these at skating to music, which, on some level, is what the sport is all about. It's too bad he wasn't able to skate at the level he did in Gothenburg in 2008 more often.
    Stojko By far the biggest overachiever here. His skating skills, non-jump elements, and presentation are inferior to all the others on this list. But he won three World Championships. A couple of the others didn't win any. So he goes here.
    Eldredge Not much soul to his skating, but overall, his accomplishments are greater than Urmanov's.
    Urmanov On paper, his competitive record isn't that much weaker than Kulik's. But Kulik's actual programs are that much better. It's a pity that his injuries kept him from achieving more.

    Ask me again in a few months, and I might come up with a very different ranking.

    Your thoughts?
  2. gingercrush

    gingercrush New Member

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    Reactions?

    People need to get over their Chan hate. Also I am not Lysacek's biggest fan but the reaction he gets is absolutely insane.

    I also find mens skating to be relatively weak especially compred to 1988 where we had the battle of the Brians. Post Plushenko era even though he is still around. No one has dominated.
  3. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    People need to get over their Chan hate, Lysacek hate, and STOJKO hate! :p

    I think the right person won. :)
  4. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    It isn't Stojko hate, it's Stojko contempt. There is a difference. :)
  5. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    This is how I would rank them

    Lambiel
    Chan
    Buttle
    Takahashi
    Kulik
    Urmanov
    Yagudin
    Lysacek
    Joubert
    Plushenko
    Eldredge
    Stojko
  6. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Marco, why do you rank Yagudin so low (and lower than Urmanov!)?

    (BTW, props for your bravery for that list.)
  7. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Yagudin is a deserving winner.

    Marco, that's... interesting. I'd be curious to know your reasoning, as it's certainly quite different from both the results and my own thoughts about the skaters in this poll.

    Nobody needs to get over anything - people are allowed to dislike Chan's skating, just as they are allowed to dislike anyone else's skating. Sometimes Chan's fans seem to think that he's the only skater who gets criticized, which is certainly not true. Though I for one can honestly said I did not try to vote him off at any point. Lysacek's record is built on consistency, for which he deserves a lot of credit, but there are more interesting and talented skaters in this list. I'd say he left right when he should have

    That nobody has dominated (though one can argue Chan has, post-Vancouver) doesn't indicate that men's skating is weak, just that different skaters peak and skate well each time. That's the sign of a strong field; having one or two dominant skaters can be fun, but it doesn't mean the rest of the field is good.

    That's interesting, because to me it seems that Joubert, despite not being considered the best skater in the field for most of his career, has achieved quite a lot. In his case it's just that he has medals rather than wins.
  8. casken

    casken Well-Known Member

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    This is pretty close to how I would have had it too.
  9. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Carriage, line, effortlessness, preference :lol:
  10. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

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    I really don't agree with Takahashi above Lambiel. The rest more or less makes sense to me.
  11. NMURA

    NMURA Member

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    my ranking

    Plushenko
    Yagudin
    Takahashi
    Joubert
    Kulik
    Stojko
    Chan
    Lambiel
    Lysacek
    Buttle

    I voted for only three (Buttle->chan-> lambiel)

    Buttle - very poor jumping abilities and consistency
    chan - always overmarked
    lambiel - quite undeserving records(medals) for a man without the 3A
  12. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

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    Lambiel's the god of spins but in every other regard he is either matched or surpassed by Takahashi. I agree with the results, except I wouldn't protest if Plushenko was a spot or 2 higher
  13. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    Sorry for going OT, but I've always wondered: what does your screen name mean??
  14. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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    This was a BLASPHEMY !!! :mad: :wuzrobbed:
    I wont lie, I voted on every voting round to Yagudin :shuffle:
  15. paskatefan

    paskatefan Well-Known Member

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    I'm not going to rank any of the skaters here, but I wouldn't have included Daisuke, Patrick, and Brian J. in this poll since they are still competing. I think they're all very talented (yes, I do think Patrick has been overscored in a number of competitions).

    I am appalled at the level of hate/disrespect toward North American skaters here in general, and am sick of the merciless bashing against skaters like Todd & Evan, etc. Whether you like them or not, they are accomplished skaters with great work ethics (OK, I'll admit I'm not obsessed with quads, and could care less about them - there are so many more elements to a program than one blasted jump). Give me great spins (not contorted ones), Russian Split Jumps, music that a skater works into a memorable program, and I'm a happy camper.

    FWIW, I still think that the greatest men's competition is "The Battle of the Brians" from the Calgary Olympics, and 2nd favorite, 1996 Worlds (the top four men were outstanding, particularly in the free skate - I felt so sad for Elvis when he had the mistakes in the short program, but was thrilled for his free skate).
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2012
  16. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    I would have had Chan and Urmanov out later
  17. Nan

    Nan Just me

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    It might help if you took a deep breath.....or a nap.
  18. DaiKozOda

    DaiKozOda Active Member

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    I would include Plushenko in the top 2.
  19. Kasey

    Kasey Loving on babies!

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    Or Ativan
  20. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    You voted for Yagudin in the final round too?;)
  21. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    It's hard to know who is still competing and who isn't. Lysacek and Plushenko say they're competing this season, so I would have had to exclude them too. And, it's certainly possible that one of these five skaters will announce his retirement without doing another competition.

    As it is, all anyone could do is rank them based on what they've done so far.
  22. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure I would say BUttle had very poor jumping abilities. Ok he didn't have a quad, but his other triples were pretty strong with some issues on the 3A at times, but I think that's covered by consistency more than poor jumping abilities - his technique was pretty sound.

    As others have pointed out, the overmarking is dont by the judges not the skater themselves so I'm not sure criticising a skater for what the judges do is particularly helpful when discussing their skills.

    Lambiel had the triple axel for several seasons and then struggled with it later on, but made up for it with the quad to compensate. He included a brilliant 3A in his 2005 SP when he won worlds.
  23. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

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    You're obviously even newer to figure skating than I am, and/or have no idea about the many elements that it consists of, including the technical elements and qualities. Even if Lambiel truly didn't have that 3A, it's just one of many elements. There are other skaters who don't have Lambiel's skating skills, have much weaker spins, not so good transitions (all part of technique), not to mention choreography, musicality, presentation and so on, and are still considered great skaters. As for Buttle and Chan, that was also answered by antmanb.
  24. NONKO

    NONKO Active Member

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    Alexei Yagudin is the BEST:rollin:
  25. Jaana

    Jaana Well-Known Member

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    My ranking:

    Chan
    Takahashi
    Lambiel
    Lysacek
    Buttle
    Kulik
    Urmanov
    Joubert
    Yagudin
    Plushenko
    Eldredge
    Stojko
  26. Rob

    Rob Beach Bum

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    In terms of my enjoyment of their overall skating/choreography/on ice personality (not teknik, medals, etc.)

    Alexei Yagudin
    Daisuke Takahashi
    Patrick Chan
    Jeffrey Buttle
    Stéphane Lambiel
    Ilia Kulik
    Evgeni Plushenko
    Todd Eldredge
    Evan Lysacek
    Brian Joubert
    Elvis Stojko
    Alexei Urmanov
  27. NMURA

    NMURA Member

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    No quad, inconsistent 3A -- that's enough to be called a poor jumper in normal senses.

    Because of overmarking, Chan's many "medals" should be considered as gifts from the judges. That's a factor can't be ignored.

    Lambiel had no choice but to rely on his "quads". That was the sigh of his weakness, not strength. I think 2005 worlds was the lowest level competition for men since Kur Browning's era... and in 2006, Joubert would be the winner if there weren't qualifying rounds. Any of his "wins" and "medals" are not impressive.
  28. Zokko!

    Zokko! Comansnala?

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    My personal ranking:

    - Yagudin
    - Kulik
    - Takahashi
    - Lambiel
    - Plushenko
    - Joubert
    - Urmanov
    - Buttle

    - Stojko
    - Eldredge
    - Chan
    - Lysacek
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2012
  29. lily

    lily Active Member

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    Eh, that's really a sign of weakness to rely on quads and most of time he had two of them in his FP, one of them in combination. Poor guy, no choice...
  30. Zokko!

    Zokko! Comansnala?

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    ... obviously in vain ... :slinkaway
  31. jl22aries

    jl22aries Active Member

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    I like this list so much!
    Rob and (deleted member) like this.
  32. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Lambiel did quads, not "quads", and he wasn't relying just on them.

    2005 Worlds were indeed pretty awful.

    The part about Joubert and 2006 Worlds is true. Joubert skated really well all three times he won silver.
  33. SmallFairy

    SmallFairy Well-Known Member

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    I don't hate or bash North American skaters, but to me Todd, Evan and Chan are zzzzzzzzz. Can't help it. Can't be anything but happy when they are votes out. I see their qualities on different aspects of their skating, but they are still zzzzzzzzz.
    Boitano on the other hand...sigh, love him so much!

    I couldn't vote in the last round. It was impossible to choose between my two favourite skaters ever.
  34. flipforsynchro

    flipforsynchro New Member

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    Was my write in vote counted?
  35. shady82

    shady82 New Member

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    ITA. I was watching Todd's 2001 LP at Worlds, and have to say I was surprisingly impressed. Everything was done with such high quality. The jumps and spins were textbook, and I loved the huge death drop and Russian splits towards the end. The program may not be particularly sophisticated or innovative, but it was effective and skated thoughtfully. The program was backloaded too - he did the triple axels and triple lutz later on in the program - we hardly see this kind of construction. TBH Todd's performances at the 2001 Worlds were pretty comparable to what Lysacek did at the Olympics, and probably even better. Evan had the edge in transitions (although it was under CoP), but Todd's choreography was much more effective. Todd was really undermarked - I'd put him ahead of Buttle and Joubert, and compare with Lysacek.

    My rankings:
    1. Yagudin
    2. Plushenko
    3. Takahashi
    4. Lambiel
    5. Kulik
    6. Chan
    7. Stojko
    8. Eldredge
    9. Lysacek
    10. Joubert
    11. Buttle
    12. Urmanov

    A couple notes:
    - As much as I love Takahashi, it's ridiculous that Plushenko gets voted out so early. This isn't objective at all.
    - Chan may have dominated so far this quadrennial, but I don't think it was merited.
    - Buttle was a one-hit wonder and almost incapable of skating clean LP. The only major time he really put together two good programs was 2008 Worlds.
  36. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Only in your dreams. :rolleyes:

    Now run along and help Jeffrey Buttle 2.0 Michal Březina break his potato's damnation.
  37. flipforsynchro

    flipforsynchro New Member

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    Michal is not Buttle 2.0. Michal is way more attractive :swoon:
  38. senorita

    senorita New Member

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    Plushenko has won nationals and europeans last season, so I assume he has already come back.
  39. ballettmaus

    ballettmaus Well-Known Member

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    He still was the best in the so-called weak field (because weak really is relative ;) ). If you're better than the rest you deserve to win.
    I don't recall 2005 worlds, so maybe he wouldn't have won a year before or a year later with that performance. But he didn't skate that performance a year before or a year later. He skated it then. At that point. And was better than anyone else. Or at least the judges thought so.

    But there are qualifying rounds. How many skaters would have won if there hadn't been figures? How many competitions would Sasha have won had there not been a 4 minute LP? It's kind of ridiculous to say if there hadn't been a part of a competition because it was there and if Joubert messed up the qualifying round then he messed up. Period. Joubert had to skate as many portions of the competition as anyone else.
    (And you seem to forget that Joubert has struggled to skate clean as well. He's a fighter, no doubt about it and when he's on, he can be very impressive. But has he truly delivered so many more clean skates that resulted in a medal win than Lambiel?)

    And there is more to skating than jumps, as someone else pointed out. Yes, I do prefer a program that is skated cleanly but in the end it's not the jumps which, for me, personally, make a program memorable. It's the program.
    I can acknowledge great jumping abilities and I find Plushenko's technical content impressive. Doesn't mean I find his programs memorable.
    I know though that for me, Lambiel's Flamenco was one of the best and I will never forget the moment he finished his Cirque du Soleil program at Europeans 2002. He might not have had the jumping contents of a Yagudin but boy, was that a program!
  40. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    I disagree, many skaters (dare I most) don't have consistent quads, that still leaves 6 other triple jumps, and you're saying Buttles inconsistency (note not inablility to do, rather inconsistency) condemns his other jumps? That doesn't make sense - look at his technique, he had great technique and you said he had "very poor jumping abilities" which IMO is not true and isn't based on sound logic.

    Ignored when considering what? A discussion of his skills, his jumping ability? How does the judges over marking him have any relevance to his actual technique, or, in fact, anything to do with him and things he can control? I agree he has been overmarked, and I agree that it is scandalous that judges do it, but the judges are responsible for that not Chan himself.

    Then there's a fault in your logic. Buttle didn't have a quad and it's seen as a weakness, Labiel does and it's also seen as a weakness? You can't have it both ways, it's one or the other.

    2005 was not great but you specifically said Lambiel didn't have a triple axel and I was pointing you to a programme where he not only did it but did a really good one!