Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Vagabond, Jul 12, 2012.
One can see facts in any way. Yagudin was injured in 2001 but Plushenko started the strike of wins over Yags from 1999 - 2000 and 2000-2001 , losing only the worlds of 2000 in those two seasons. Which can make a case that he was only 17 and Yags two time worlds champion, nevertheless he started catching him. And if I remember well Yags didn't exactly skate well at worlds 2000. Plushenko was first after sp and then splat.
He hasn't medaled in all his career in major competitions only at Nice. I don't know how that makes him the weaker competitor. He hasn't participated to many worlds to begin with, last entry 2005 that lead to withdrawing. If he would actually care he would have gone to 2006 worlds for a walk and take the 4th world title but probably he didn't.And it is not like plushenko was the healthiest person, beginning with hernia in 2001- 2002 that led to surgery in 2005 plus the broken knees..
I was perfectly happy with SLC result, I thought plush did very well at the end concidering he swooped the floor on sp, I believe it would have been hard to beat yagudin that season anyway, cause the latter had better programs and Olympic experience.
I think yagudin was the better skater when they competed but o d like to have seen them after 2002 when they would both have matured.
I remembered all the talk about Plushenko's injury during the 2001/2002 season but I wasn't aware that it had to do with hernia. Thanks for the info Senorita.
Is there any program component as to which Plushenko is clearly superior to Lambiel or Takahashi?
If anyone thinks there is, I'd certainly be interested in an explanation, since it will factor into my voting in the next round.
Easy answer - jumps.
First injury was in gpf the ankle, anyway I read from past archives too, I ll send you pm, I dont know why Yags vs Plu talk has any meaning now
You can say also that Old plush has competed only 4 seasons under cop despite the dinosaur career, which he did pretty well with 4 euros and 2 oly medals.
Still not familiar with CoP after all these years, are we?
Jumps are elements, not program components.
oops, mixed up. His jumps overpower everything.
Then no easy answers...
My point was that discussions of program components, in this thread and in general, seem overwhelmingly focused on transitions. Which are, IMO, the least interesting component.
The clearly superior Lambiel and Takahashi have nowhere near the competitive record of Plushenko, and I think actual performance, not just artistic talent, should count for something. This is not just art, it's a sport, and Plushenko's achievements reflect that. But YMMV.
And I will reiterate that I am not by any means a Plushenko fan - I just feel some people are overly harsh in their assessment of his skating.
Human beings respond to things that are memorable for them and provoke an emotional response.
For many people voting in these polls, Plushenko's skating, despite his records and the positives about his skating (mostly his undeniably jumping ability) is not memorable and never provoked an emotional response. For me, personally, his skating typically provoked a reaction more along the line of, "this guy who is so sloppy is going to win? Really?" Especially since his return in 2010.
As this poll has no specific criteria, Yags will win because his performances were incredibly memorable for a larger percentage of people, he was not sloppy, he had a much better attitude (I think even Plushenko fans can agree with that one), and he provoked an emotional response in more people.
Lambiel and Takahashi, whom anyone will undoubtedly agree have achieved far less in the sport as far as medals than Plushenko, similarly produced memorable performances and an emotional response in more people. Thus, as there is no specific criteria, they will place ahead of Plushenko.
You don't have to agree with it, but I think it's pretty obvious why these polls are coming out the way they are. If we're basing it on medal count and achievements then Lysacek should still be here, after all, but we can rank people on that much more easily and without need of a poll.
^Actually, Yagudin didn't exactly have the better attitude. I still remember him cheering publicly in backstage at 1998 Worlds when Plushenko didn't perform up to par. Neither of them tried to hide the animosity that they had for each other, which provided huge entertainment at the time. But I agree with your post in general.
So then what would be the fun of this poll? We clearly don't need a bunch of internet posters' votes to decide that it's Plushenko and Yagudin that have the most impressive competitive records here...
Is more like it. Evan's medal count and overall achievements are only clearly superior to about 2 or 3 of the people who started the 12 person poll to begin with.
^ still re yag vs plushenko the titles and medals one by one were brought for arguments.
I would argue Stojko and Lysacek do not have the same place in history, the audience or whatever emotional response one searches, as Plushenko. You can call him the Britney Spears of fs or as superficial but thats subjective, I believe Plushenko and Yagudin have surpassed the skating fans popularity and are the ones together with Kwan who will be included in those small spots you see in every Oly year about past Olympics, I just saw one with Abrahams and Liddell of 1924 Olys. If there was a more artistic runner in that games, they didnt mention.
Because Yagudin and Plushenko are my favorite skaters I think I'm objective when I say that Yagudin's superiority is a myth. Their rivalry was in fact very short, 2 years I would say, you can't expect a 15-16 y.o kid to match an older and very good skater.
If Plushy's out I'll vote for Yagudin next because artistically he wasn't better than Takahashi or Lambiel.
Many here are mentioned: "Just that Yagudin could continue to compete after 2002..."
What would happen, if it would happen?
Let's imagine... If Plushy could win over Yagudin with his 17 years, of course it would be even easier to Plushy to winning Yagudin, with his 20, 21, 25 years ... when he become more mature and physically stronger...
Think about that...
^^ Yeah, since this poll seems to be about the elusive artistry, I guess Yagudin should go next. After all, he only skated to bombastic movie scores, had no transitions to speak of and his footwork is clearly inferior to both Lambiel and Takahashi.
It's ridiculous to say Yagudin is greater than Plushenko because he dominated their rivalry, has 1 more World Gold Medal, or Plushenko has more medals because of his longivity.
Just as Kulik winning more against Yagudin doesn't make him greater than the later, Yagudin is almost 3 years older than Plushy. If taking 98 out (when plushenko was 16), Yagudin won 8 times and Plushenko won 10 times in all competitions based on wiki. If taking 98 and 99 out, it's Yagudin 5 and Plushenko 8. Yagudin won Plushenko in Olympic. But I can argue that he finished with 5# in his 1st time Olympic while Plushy got his silver medal. Actually I don't suggest taking 98 and 99 out. Because everyone has their immature time just as Yagudin would lose to Kulik, Plushenko would lose to Yagudin, etc.
Plushenko has not only won against Lambiel, Buttle, and Joubert, but also won against Timothy Goebel and Takeshi Honda. If people said "Yagudin can only win a young or injured plushenko", I will think it's unfair just as "Plushy can only won an old or injured Yagudin"
Yes, Yagudin has 1 more world title, but not only world title counts. judgejudy27 has converted medals to data which includes Olympic, World and GPF. If adding European and GP as well, the difference will be bigger.
Yagudin retire after 2002, it is a pity, but it's not anyone's fault. Career longivity does add credit. If people can say if yagudin didn't retire after 2002, I can also say if Plushenko continue to compete after 2006. But what happens just happened.
Yagudin medalled in every single World championship, it's amazing. But if taking this as credit, Plushy will have the credit of medalling in every Olympic (he will probably not get this credit after 2012 ). And as far as I remember, Plushy is the only one who has won World level titles (World/Olympic/GPF) under both 6.0 system and COP. Actually, he is the only one who has proved himself to be a winner under both system. People can make assumption yagudin can do the same or better, well, everyone can keep their imagination. But imagination is imagination, not the truth.
Plushy is voted out in this round. And I am ok with people prefer the other 3 than him here. But it's better to use other reasons, for example: medal doesn't mean anything! Plushy is a bathroom break! I can never get his artistry, etc. Anyway, no no can argue about these reasons because it's only in everyone's mind.
I remember Dick Button commented at 2000 worlds, and he said something like "at the age of 17, you're physically strong and could possibly do anything." Being younger is not always an excuse. Even a 13-year-old Yagudin could beat both Kulik and Abt at his first junior worlds. By the way, at worlds 2000, Plushenko was second after the sp. both of them skated clean, and Yagudin won 8 votes out of 9 judges, a clear edge. Just like Tracey said: "what Alexei did that Plushenko did not do was he used his music, pushed it to the edge.." And that's always their difference.
For me, Yagudin is better than Plushenko in everything, musicality, better control on the ice, emotions, and even the jumps. Considering Yagudin left Alexei Mishin when he's only 18 and trained under Tarasova, who's never a technique coach, for 4 seasons. Plushenko was younger and trained under Alexei Mishin with his full attention for 4 years, and he just could not even out jump Yagudin in SLC. Their jumping ability were pretty equal by that time, both of them landed 4-3-3 in practice but never in competition, Yagudin landed 4t-1/2lp-3s in competition.
Speaking of injuries, Plushenko had a slight groin injury, which was announced by Alexei Mishin before the Olympics. Yagudin's hip problem was also pretty severe by that time, that kind of chronic hip injury one could not get just in one day. And someone said Plushenko fell in the sp because that's his 1st olympics and lack of experience. Ok, when Yagudin competed at his 1st olympics, he's only 17, and he did not fall on his first jump of the competition.
If some people are looking at medals and choose Yagudin over Plushenko mostly or solely because Yagudin soundly beat him at their only head-to-head Olympics, that's their own way to look at it, which is the basis of these polls.
Wow, Plush off the podium is a surprise!
Probably the only way that's going to happen
^ Isnt this childish?, ok Yagudin didnt fell in his first Olys, that is good, Plushenko had a big fall and a silver medal. Every skater is different in how he handles pressure.
Plushenko did try 4-3-3, a single quad, two triple axels, one of them in the combo 3a-1/2l-3f in SLC, what exactly would satisfy you in order to outjumb Yags?
I dont think we need to compare their injuries, it is unfortunate facts when skaters dont compete healthy.
Btw poll has ended, keep the arguments for Dai/Lambiel
I ve read the peak age for a male skater is around 21-23. Chan in Sochi
So in his 18, which is one more year than "can do everything", Yagudin lost to not only Kulik, but also Stojko, Candeloro, and Todd Eldredge. IMO, If we consider one on one rivalry winning, we should consider age as well, but I will suggest not to consider both of them.
I will not argue about something like Tracey's comment. Everyone keeps their opinion as "I think somebody is the best". But the following are some correction.
Plushenko landed 433 in 2003 GPF and 2003 World qualifying
Yagudin landed 4t-3t, 4t-1/2lp-3s in 2001 Skate Canada (What a pity he fall on 3a. But the comb is interesting). And Plushenko landed 4T-3T-2Lo and 4T-3T in COR and GPF......now it's time to claim jump means nothing.
Speaking to Mishin, if Yagudin can get credit on jump because he left Mishin, I must give Plushenko credit on artistry or personal charm since he can get so many standing ovation and innocent audience's love while he has never left mishin .
Well, I can say in 1998, "a didn't fall in 1st jump yagudin" can only get #5 and in 2002 "a fall plushenko" can won silver.
Again, let's forget about age and injury. They are all in different ages and they all have injurys. In his book, Yagudin mentioned his hip pain in 2001 and 2002, which deteriorated and caused his retirement in 2003 (a big loss).
Plushy mentioned the foot and back pain in 2001. And in 2002, he had ankle and groin injury. He took shot for competition and give up Euro. I does not consider the injury light, but I consider it's his own problem, not anyone else's fault.
Next time I will claim Plushenko can win Lambiel because he is alway 2 year matured than the later
Well, he has to be kicked away from the podium, in one way or another
Childish of not, I have no problem with that. Let those who read this post to judge. 8 judges out of 9 is not a clear edge, also no problem.
Plushenko did try 4-3-3, a single quad, two triple axels, yeah, he failed on that 4-3-3, with lots of mistakes. What a pity, otherwise Yagudin would do 4-3-3 too, and we would see a 4t-1/2-3s, then Scott Hamilton wouldn't say Yagudin was conservative. Anyway, Yagudin won even he skated conservatively at one of the most famous rivalries. People would remember that for a long time I guess.
Plushenko lost this round to Dai, but you see, it's always about Yagudin and Plushenko. I don't mind someone post more trash talking about Yagudin.
Yes I corrected my 8 to 9 judges but you quoted me first because I somehow substracted them and thought, one judge difference, sorry my bad
I believe it is different could have done than did 4-3-3 and 3a-3F sequence in Olympic games. And it is not like he splatted a la Buttle , he stepped out the last triple of 4-3-3, how mNy are those mistakes?
Yagudin didn't need to worry, it needed major upset for plushenko to win after sp, a la Hugues.
I don't think there is a post I trash talked yagudin, huh?But I can see flaws to him and plushenko, although we focus on plushenko mostly.
By the way, at worlds 2000, Plushenko was second after the sp. both of them skated clean, and Yagudin won 8 votes out of 9 judges, a clear edge.
If I am the one who is reading this post, it's easy to judge.
If A lost to B when both of them are clean, A is weaker than B in this round because a perfect A lost to a perfect B.
If A lost to B when A is not clean while B is. A is weaker than B in this round because A cannot be clean in this compitition while B can.
If A lost to B when A is clean and B is not. A is weaker than B in this round because even a clean A cannot beat an impefect B.
If A lost to B when both of them are not clean. A is weaker than B in this round because an imperfect A cannot beat an impefect B.
What's a meaningful conclusion!
By the way, at Olympic 1998, Yagudin was 4th after the sp. A clean Yagudin lost to a clean Todd Eldredge 9 out of 9 after SP, lost to Kulik 8 out of 9, and lost to Stojko 8 out of 9. 3 clear edge. And in 2000, Yagudin won is Yagudin won. To me it doesn't matter he won 5 to 4 or 9 to 0. The same as to the others.
It's the first time in 12 years.