Figure Skating Champions SURVIVOR: Men's Final Four

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Vagabond, Jul 12, 2012.

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Who is the Weakest Link?

Poll closed Jul 16, 2012.
  1. Alexei Yagudin

    18 vote(s)
    4.6%
  2. Evgeni Plushenko

    137 vote(s)
    34.9%
  3. Stéphane Lambiel

    113 vote(s)
    28.8%
  4. Daisuke Takahashi

    124 vote(s)
    31.6%
  1. SmallFairy

    SmallFairy Well-Known Member

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    Three of the remaining men have made me cry from utter, perfect joy and electric emotions while skating. Plushy has never. Never! And those three are to me what skating is all about. It's because of skaters like them I'm watching!:D
  2. magnolia

    magnolia New Member

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    Not that I'm diagreeing with the results, but I tthink Plushy's longevity is inspiring and his jumps were/are awesome. Plus, he has his own style of owning the ice that can't be matched by any of the other three. He is King! :plush:
  3. flipforsynchro

    flipforsynchro New Member

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    I believe his artistric abilities are the best ever.
    On a more thready note, I still can't believe Lambiel and Takahashi are gonna beat Plushy.
  4. Jenny81

    Jenny81 Member

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    I'm not a big fan of Plushy but I agree with you.
  5. Jenny81

    Jenny81 Member

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    All I can say is Yagudin will win in this poll. :D

    For me,,,
    Yagudin>>>>>>> Lambiel, Plushenko >> Takahashi
  6. lily

    lily Member

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    But objectively... in which is Yagudin so much greater than Plushenko? He even don't have more medals.
  7. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Objectively speaking he won more 1 more World or Olympic event despite a career that was about half as long. He also dominated their rivalry when it came to World or Olympic events, coming out ahead 4 times out of 5.
  8. senorita

    senorita New Member

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    ^ I don't really disagree with what you say but I don't know if anyone expected plushenko to win yagudin at 15 years old or even 16 at worlds...plushenko entered 2 years later the seniors than yagudin, he is almost 3 years younger and by the time anyone could spell his name yagudin was already world champion, world medalist from 1997 and 5th in Nagano.
    Worlds 2000 plushenko had the biggest splatfest ever and was off podium anyway, he didn't lose only to Yags.
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2012
  9. lily

    lily Member

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    May be but they still seem pretty equal for me. Also their skating style...
  10. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Eliminate the 98 and 99 Worlds if you wish. That still would have Yagudin up 2-1 in World or Olympic competition. Yagudin's loss coming when he had a major injury and had no chance of getting through a long program cleanly. As for the meltdown at the 2000 Worlds, that just shows Yagudin is a stronger competitor than Plushenko which is Plushenko's main advantage vs most people. So in addition to being the stronger skater (to most) he also has the edge as a competitor too, and managing more World or Olympic titles combined in a much shorter career to boot, leaving no reason Plushenko should come ahead really.

    That said I am surprised Plushenko is going out this early.
  11. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    I see your point. Many of the same criticisms that apply to Plushy should apply to Yags: greater emphasis on jumping and consistency, less on transitions and spins, and very similar style of footwork. So I don't see why Plush would go out fourth and Yagudin would win.
  12. DaiKozOda

    DaiKozOda Active Member

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    If my memory isn't betraying me, Plushenko was injured during 2001/2002 season which led him to miss the euros. In the OG he was screwed by the fall in the quad in the short but still he was able to pull from 4th to 2nd in the long. If it wasn't for that we would probably had a different result or, at least, a much closer competition.
    Yagudin got his first medal at worlds when Plushenko wasn't even a senior yet.
    Yagudin competed in two olympics. In 98 he was 5th (suffering from a flu) and in 02 he was first.
    Plushenko was left out of the russian olympic team in 98. Remember that the russians had Kulik and a hope to get Urmanov to recover in time (which in the end didn't happened and helped Yagudin get a trip to Nagano). Plushenko was 2nd in 02, 1st in 06 and got a "golden" silver in 10. So, overall, Plushenko has a better olympic record than Yagudin.
    In what concerns World Championships, we need to have in mind that Plushenko is younger than Yagudin and in 99 (his second senior year) he was already challenging him.

    If you take in mind the individual medal account of the two, including major events such as OG, Worlds, GPF, Grand prix events, this is what you get:
    Yagudin
    OG: 1 gold = 1 medal
    Worlds: 4 golds, 1 silver, 1 bronze = 6 medals
    GPF: 2 golds, 1 silver = 3 medals
    Euros: 3 golds, 2 silvers = 5 medals

    Plushenko
    OG: 1 gold, 2 silvers = 3 medals;
    Worlds: 3 golds, 1 silver, 1 bronze = 5 medals
    GPF: 4 golds, 2 silvers, 1 bronze = 7 medals
    Euros: 7 golds, 3 silvers = 10 medals

    Grand Prix Events total:
    Yagudin
    Gold: 12
    Silver: 2
    Bronze: 2

    Plushenko
    Gold: 18
    Silver: 3
    Bronze: 0

    Gosh, sorry for getting carried away with this lol
  13. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    ^These are the types of arguments that I was expecting in the final round, so may as well make them now. ;) :(

    I do think Yags is better overall than Plush due to his record at Worlds. With 3 Olympic medals, 7 European titles, and 9 National titles, I would expect Plush to have a lot more World titles then he does. And I know it has to do with retirements and injuries, etc, but at the end of the day it is what you put out there, and I was disappointed he didn't go in 2006 and 2010 cause I thought he would've won either in a landslide. Also, Yagudin's medal record at Worlds is 100%, while Plushy failed to medal in I think 1999.
  14. DaiKozOda

    DaiKozOda Active Member

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    :40beers:

    Tottaly agree that Yagudin and Plushenko had a very very similar style of footwork.
    I also think it was Yagudin and Plushenko that set the standard for others to improve and develop the footwork sequences.
  15. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Even if he is younger than Yagudin, Plushenko still had a much longer career and many more chances than Yagudin to win World or Olympic events and STILL ended up with less. Yagudin had to retire at 21. Plushenko had opportunities to compete as long as he wanted, did retire for awhile at 23, still older than Yagudin was when he was forced out of the sport. Yagudin winning 4 Worlds and the Olympics in a 4 year span (only missing out on winning one Worlds when he was 2nd) is also a more dominant streak than anything Plushenko produced and he was competing against Plushenko himself that whole time, whereas Plushenko at the height of his dominance was competing only against poor jumper Lambiel, Buttle, and Joubert.

    As for the 2002 Olympics Plushenko's fall in the short program made 0 difference. He was beaten soundly in the long program, not even getting 1 first place vote. Yagudin also beat a healthy and flawless Plushenko at the GP final earlier when Yagudin didnt skate nearly as well as SLC.


    Based on what? Maybe in 2006, but in 2010 Takahashi's winning performances at Worlds would have beaten either Lysacek or Plushenko's performances from Vancouver. Unless you are presuming Plushenko was certain to skate much better than Vancouver, which there is no reason to assume that I see, he would not have won Worlds.
  16. DaiKozOda

    DaiKozOda Active Member

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    Plushenko was the silver medallist in 99. It was in Nice 2000 that he screwed big time and finished 4th when he had it all in his hand to win.

    But you're absolutely right: Yagudin medalled in every single World championship he entered (1997-2002).

    I would also like to add to my previous post that Plushenko couldn't go to Worlds in 2002 because of the same injury that forced him to pull out of the euros that season.
    But in fairness I also need to say that in Vancouver 2001, Yagudin had a foot injury.
  17. lily

    lily Member

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    That's exactly what I thought!
  18. DaiKozOda

    DaiKozOda Active Member

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    I think it made a difference. In 2001/2001 season, Plushenko was unbeaten. In 2001/2002, he wasn't at his best physically due to injury that caused him to miss euros and worlds. That fall led to a sense of frailty and I remember some commentators mentioning that. But my point is: if Plushenko hadn't had that fall in the quad, he would probably had been much closer to Yagudin in the SP if not first.
    I would like to state that I have absolutely no doubts that Yagudin won in SLC fair and square.

    (Isn't it nice to think about all the probabilities? lool)

    My final argument:
    Plushenko has something that Yagudin didn't even come close to get: an eurovision victory :D :p
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2012
  19. Jaana

    Jaana Well-Known Member

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    I´d suppose that if Lambiel and Takahashi fans unite, they can vote Yagudin out in next round...
  20. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    I think it's silly to judge Yagudin for not being an IJS-friendly skater when he spent his entire career under 6.0. This criticism is more appropriate in Plushenko's case, but I still feel he did enough to make it through. Transitions are but one component out of five, and I think sometimes people forget that. But others obviously disagree.

    And since Plushenko will soon be eliminated, this is my opportunity to address Plush vs. Yags, so here goes: Yagudin and Plushenko both have amazing competitive records and their rivalry demanded the best of both of them and pushed men's skating forward. I give Plushenko a lot of credit for his longevity and his strength as both a competitor and a performer, even if his style did not speak to me personally. However... SLC was the pinnacle of the Plushenko-Yagudin rivalry and was probably the biggest test both faced in their careers, and only one of them rose to the occasion. Yags won the one that mattered, and for me he wins overall. A pity the hip injury forced him out of the sport; who knows how he might developed as he matured.
  21. DaiKozOda

    DaiKozOda Active Member

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  22. senorita

    senorita New Member

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    One can see facts in any way. Yagudin was injured in 2001 but Plushenko started the strike of wins over Yags from 1999 - 2000 and 2000-2001 , losing only the worlds of 2000 in those two seasons. Which can make a case that he was only 17 and Yags two time worlds champion, nevertheless he started catching him. And if I remember well Yags didn't exactly skate well at worlds 2000. Plushenko was first after sp and then splat.

    He hasn't medaled in all his career in major competitions only at Nice. I don't know how that makes him the weaker competitor. He hasn't participated to many worlds to begin with, last entry 2005 that lead to withdrawing. If he would actually care he would have gone to 2006 worlds for a walk and take the 4th world title but probably he didn't.And it is not like plushenko was the healthiest person, beginning with hernia in 2001- 2002 that led to surgery in 2005 plus the broken knees..

    I was perfectly happy with SLC result, I thought plush did very well at the end concidering he swooped the floor on sp, I believe it would have been hard to beat yagudin that season anyway, cause the latter had better programs and Olympic experience.

    I think yagudin was the better skater when they competed but o d like to have seen them after 2002 when they would both have matured.
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2012
  23. DaiKozOda

    DaiKozOda Active Member

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    I remembered all the talk about Plushenko's injury during the 2001/2002 season but I wasn't aware that it had to do with hernia. Thanks for the info Senorita.
  24. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Is there any program component as to which Plushenko is clearly superior to Lambiel or Takahashi?

    If anyone thinks there is, I'd certainly be interested in an explanation, since it will factor into my voting in the next round.
  25. lily

    lily Member

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    Easy answer - jumps. :D
  26. senorita

    senorita New Member

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    First injury was in gpf the ankle, anyway I read from past archives too, I ll send you pm, I dont know why Yags vs Plu talk has any meaning now :p

    You can say also that Old plush has competed only 4 seasons under cop despite the dinosaur career, which he did pretty well with 4 euros and 2 oly medals.
  27. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Still not familiar with CoP after all these years, are we? :)

    Jumps are elements, not program components.
  28. lily

    lily Member

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    oops, mixed up. His jumps overpower everything.
    Then no easy answers...:shuffle:
  29. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    My point was that discussions of program components, in this thread and in general, seem overwhelmingly focused on transitions. Which are, IMO, the least interesting component.

    The clearly superior Lambiel and Takahashi have nowhere near the competitive record of Plushenko, and I think actual performance, not just artistic talent, should count for something. This is not just art, it's a sport, and Plushenko's achievements reflect that. But YMMV.

    And I will reiterate that I am not by any means a Plushenko fan - I just feel some people are overly harsh in their assessment of his skating.
  30. michiruwater

    michiruwater Well-Known Member

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    Human beings respond to things that are memorable for them and provoke an emotional response.

    For many people voting in these polls, Plushenko's skating, despite his records and the positives about his skating (mostly his undeniably jumping ability) is not memorable and never provoked an emotional response. For me, personally, his skating typically provoked a reaction more along the line of, "this guy who is so sloppy is going to win? Really?" Especially since his return in 2010.

    As this poll has no specific criteria, Yags will win because his performances were incredibly memorable for a larger percentage of people, he was not sloppy, he had a much better attitude (I think even Plushenko fans can agree with that one), and he provoked an emotional response in more people.

    Lambiel and Takahashi, whom anyone will undoubtedly agree have achieved far less in the sport as far as medals than Plushenko, similarly produced memorable performances and an emotional response in more people. Thus, as there is no specific criteria, they will place ahead of Plushenko.

    You don't have to agree with it, but I think it's pretty obvious why these polls are coming out the way they are. If we're basing it on medal count and achievements then Lysacek should still be here, after all, but we can rank people on that much more easily and without need of a poll.
  31. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

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    ^Actually, Yagudin didn't exactly have the better attitude. I still remember him cheering publicly in backstage at 1998 Worlds when Plushenko didn't perform up to par. Neither of them tried to hide the animosity that they had for each other, which provided huge entertainment at the time. But I agree with your post in general.
    So then what would be the fun of this poll? We clearly don't need a bunch of internet posters' votes to decide that it's Plushenko and Yagudin that have the most impressive competitive records here...
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2012
  32. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Is more like it. :lol: Evan's medal count and overall achievements are only clearly superior to about 2 or 3 of the people who started the 12 person poll to begin with.
  33. senorita

    senorita New Member

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    ^ still re yag vs plushenko the titles and medals one by one were brought for arguments.

    I would argue Stojko and Lysacek do not have the same place in history, the audience or whatever emotional response one searches, as Plushenko. You can call him the Britney Spears of fs or as superficial but thats subjective, I believe Plushenko and Yagudin have surpassed the skating fans popularity and are the ones together with Kwan who will be included in those small spots you see in every Oly year about past Olympics, I just saw one with Abrahams and Liddell of 1924 Olys. :)If there was a more artistic runner in that games, they didnt mention.
  34. ciocio

    ciocio New Member

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    Because Yagudin and Plushenko are my favorite skaters I think I'm objective when I say that Yagudin's superiority is a myth. Their rivalry was in fact very short, 2 years I would say, you can't expect a 15-16 y.o kid to match an older and very good skater. :lol:
    If Plushy's out I'll vote for Yagudin next because artistically he wasn't better than Takahashi or Lambiel.
  35. plushyta

    plushyta New Member

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    Many here are mentioned: "Just that Yagudin could continue to compete after 2002..."

    What would happen, if it would happen? :confused:

    Let's imagine... If Plushy could win over Yagudin with his 17 years, of course it would be even easier to Plushy to winning Yagudin, with his 20, 21, 25 years ... when he become more mature and physically stronger... ;)

    Think about that... :hat1:
  36. umronnie

    umronnie Active Member

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    ^^ Yeah, since this poll seems to be about the elusive artistry, I guess Yagudin should go next. After all, he only skated to bombastic movie scores, had no transitions to speak of and his footwork is clearly inferior to both Lambiel and Takahashi.
  37. reflect

    reflect New Member

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    It's ridiculous to say Yagudin is greater than Plushenko because he dominated their rivalry, has 1 more World Gold Medal, or Plushenko has more medals because of his longivity.

    Just as Kulik winning more against Yagudin doesn't make him greater than the later, Yagudin is almost 3 years older than Plushy. If taking 98 out (when plushenko was 16), Yagudin won 8 times and Plushenko won 10 times in all competitions based on wiki. If taking 98 and 99 out, it's Yagudin 5 and Plushenko 8. Yagudin won Plushenko in Olympic. But I can argue that he finished with 5# in his 1st time Olympic while Plushy got his silver medal. Actually I don't suggest taking 98 and 99 out. Because everyone has their immature time just as Yagudin would lose to Kulik, Plushenko would lose to Yagudin, etc.

    Plushenko has not only won against Lambiel, Buttle, and Joubert, but also won against Timothy Goebel and Takeshi Honda. If people said "Yagudin can only win a young or injured plushenko", I will think it's unfair just as "Plushy can only won an old or injured Yagudin"


    Yes, Yagudin has 1 more world title, but not only world title counts. judgejudy27 has converted medals to data which includes Olympic, World and GPF. If adding European and GP as well, the difference will be bigger.

    Yagudin retire after 2002, it is a pity, but it's not anyone's fault. Career longivity does add credit. If people can say if yagudin didn't retire after 2002, I can also say if Plushenko continue to compete after 2006. But what happens just happened.

    Yagudin medalled in every single World championship, it's amazing. But if taking this as credit, Plushy will have the credit of medalling in every Olympic (he will probably not get this credit after 2012 :p). And as far as I remember, Plushy is the only one who has won World level titles (World/Olympic/GPF) under both 6.0 system and COP. Actually, he is the only one who has proved himself to be a winner under both system. People can make assumption yagudin can do the same or better, well, everyone can keep their imagination. But imagination is imagination, not the truth.

    Plushy is voted out in this round. And I am ok with people prefer the other 3 than him here. But it's better to use other reasons, for example: medal doesn't mean anything! Plushy is a bathroom break! I can never get his artistry, etc. Anyway, no no can argue about these reasons because it's only in everyone's mind.
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2012
  38. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    I remember Dick Button commented at 2000 worlds, and he said something like "at the age of 17, you're physically strong and could possibly do anything." Being younger is not always an excuse. Even a 13-year-old Yagudin could beat both Kulik and Abt at his first junior worlds. By the way, at worlds 2000, Plushenko was second after the sp. both of them skated clean, and Yagudin won 8 votes out of 9 judges, a clear edge. Just like Tracey said: "what Alexei did that Plushenko did not do was he used his music, pushed it to the edge.." And that's always their difference.

    For me, Yagudin is better than Plushenko in everything, musicality, better control on the ice, emotions, and even the jumps. Considering Yagudin left Alexei Mishin when he's only 18 and trained under Tarasova, who's never a technique coach, for 4 seasons. Plushenko was younger and trained under Alexei Mishin with his full attention for 4 years, and he just could not even out jump Yagudin in SLC. Their jumping ability were pretty equal by that time, both of them landed 4-3-3 in practice but never in competition, Yagudin landed 4t-1/2lp-3s in competition.

    Speaking of injuries, Plushenko had a slight groin injury, which was announced by Alexei Mishin before the Olympics. Yagudin's hip problem was also pretty severe by that time, that kind of chronic hip injury one could not get just in one day. And someone said Plushenko fell in the sp because that's his 1st olympics and lack of experience. Ok, when Yagudin competed at his 1st olympics, he's only 17, and he did not fall on his first jump of the competition.
  39. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    If some people are looking at medals and choose Yagudin over Plushenko mostly or solely because Yagudin soundly beat him at their only head-to-head Olympics, that's their own way to look at it, which is the basis of these polls.
  40. Rob

    Rob Beach Bum

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    Wow, Plush off the podium is a surprise!