Figure Skating Champions SURVIVOR: Ladies SEMI-FINAL

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by SamuraiK, Jul 13, 2012.

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Who is the weakest link among these past champions?

Poll closed Jul 18, 2012.
  1. Michelle Kwan

    63 vote(s)
    15.7%
  2. Irina Slutskaya

    205 vote(s)
    51.0%
  3. Yuna Kim

    134 vote(s)
    33.3%
  1. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    You could make up all kinds of scenarios. You could discount Kwan's 94 because she also competed at junior worlds that year, but then she doesn't medal until two years after winning juniors, whereas Kim won a medal the season after winning juniors. Etc etc.

    But it's probably easier to just go with the actual results. It probably does penalize Kwan a bit for being talented enough to make senior worlds that young, while she was not ready to medal yet, but then others were penalized for things outside of their control , like Mao, who probably indeed would have medalled in 2006 but we have to go with facts which is that she did not. And on the flip side, one could argue that the experience of skating in senior worlds for two years without pressure does give Kwan some kind of advantage that Mao and Kim did not have because they had to wait until they were eligible.
     
  2. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    ITA. Irina has admitted to seriously contemplating quitting in 99. Perhaps Kim could also find that amazing 2nd wind, but it's even more unlikely than Irina's unlikely but amazing comeback, because of what I'll call "the Lipinski factor". :D Just as it's harder to defend than challenge, it harder to stay competitive when you've already won the sport's top prizes. A 2nd OGM for Kim in Sochi would be :kickass: IMHO.
    You're probably right. Despite my best efforts to make the apples and oranges both look like pears, I've probably just made lemonade. :D
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2012
  3. RunnersHigh

    RunnersHigh Well-Known Member

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    IMHO, World Championships and Yuna were strangers, just like Olympics and Kwan.

    • 2007: 1st in SP, 4th in FS, 3rd in Total (With Back injury)
    • 2008: 5th in SP, 1st in FS, 3rd in Total (With Back injury)
    • 2009: 1st in SP, 1st in FS, 1st in Total (Injury Free)
    • 2010: 7th in SP, 1st in FS, 2nd in Total (Right after Olympics)
    • 2011: 1st in SP, 2nd in FS, 2nd in Total (First competition after 2010 Worlds)

    Nevertheless, she went some! I mean she won SP, FS or both in any case. Back to the topic, it's *really* hard for me to vote. I have no criteria for comparing those champions and I don't care who wins. ;)
     
    PeterG and (deleted member) like this.
  4. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    I hope Kim wins this
     
  5. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Kim's biggest problem is she won only 1 of 5 Worlds even though she could have easily won all 5. She didnt even need to skate cleanly to win any of them. She would have won in 2007 and 2008 with just one major mistake, and in 2010 and 2011 with just several mistakes over the two programs rather than the huge number she made. Had she won all 5 of those as she should have managed, or even 3 or 4 of the 5 she would rightfully be regarded as the best skater ever today but she didnt and she isnt. Allowing a mediocre skater like Miki Ando to have more World titles than her in the same era is an embarassment for a skater of her caliber, I am sure even she secretly feels the same way. That is also why she will lose this game when it enters the last round.

    At her best she would definitely beat Kwan in a head to head competition, but Kwan is a much stronger competitor.
     
  6. flipforsynchro

    flipforsynchro New Member

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    Someday, I will learn how to explain things like you...
     
  7. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    That sums it up pretty nicely. Kim's Olympic performances are probably the best ever by any woman (even though her LP leaves a lot to be desired artistically IMO). I can't think of anyone who could defeat those two programs, especially under that system. But, she only managed that once in her career. If she and Kwan had gone head to head in their primes, I suspect many titles would have been traded and Kwan would have come out on top slightly more often because of her consistency. A clean Kwan was more than capable of taking many of the world titles that Kim missed out on. The showdown between them in the next round should be very interesting.

    :watch:

    ETA: I feel bad voting Irina out, first time I've voted for her, but third place in this field is well-deserved and respectable. She was a remarkable skater and competitor who I miss even though I wasn't a fan.
     
  8. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    Shrug. I can see how Kim coulda/shoulda/woulda been a 5 time WC, but then I can also see how Kwan coulda/shoulda/woulda been a 2 time ogm and at least 8 time WC. 97, 99 and 02 and possibly even 04, were all there ripe for the pickin and she could have had them too had she not faltered due to injury, illness, fatigue, poor judgement in firing famous coach, etc... Pretty much all the same things that kept Kim from winning too.
     
  9. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    But despite that, Kwan persevered and still came out with more medals and titles. I can't think of any other woman in the world who could land at LEAST 6 triples in the final freeskate at worlds for 10 years in a row (94-2003). Kim didn't even do that once.
     
  10. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    Techinally I find it a stand off... Kwan laid down more clean 7 triple attempted LPs, but Kim had more impressive jumps and combos. What really surges Kwan ahead IMO is the 2nd mark. No other woman on the list reached that level of presentation IMO. Kim is almost as icy and distant as shiz.
     
  11. bartek

    bartek New Member

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    The presentation level is really a subjective thing. I think that many, even on this board, would argue with your statement saying that e.g. Lu Chen reached even higher level of presentation. But for example me, I don't find anything special about Lu Chen's presentation. On the other hand, I reckon that the woman who reached the highest level of presentation is definitely Sasha Cohen. I agree that Yu-Na tends to be icy and distant but I'm sure many consider her to be the best artist ever on the ice...

    I love Slutskaya's power and energy and most people on this forum don't like this type of skating. It's all subjective...
     
  12. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Presentation is definitely subjective. The judges seemed to think Nancy Kerrigan and Oksana Baiul were oh so artistic, and that was their biggest edge on the other top skaters at the time, but for me they were :yikes: I thought Lu Chen, Yuka Sato, and even Josee Chouinard had much better LPs presentation wise that year, when skated well, but definitely not the judges.

    I also didnt find Kristi Yamaguchi as an amateur any better artistically than Midori Ito, but the judges felt so strongly, so much so Ito needed to hit all her triple axels and everything else in her arsenal to hope to win.
     
  13. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Of course Kim was developing her skills while/after Kwan was dominating figure skating with Slute not far behind.
     
  14. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

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    KIM SHOULD WIN
     
  15. flipforsynchro

    flipforsynchro New Member

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    No
     
  16. miki88

    miki88 New Member

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    Michelle should definitely win this in the end. There is no question she is the best overall skater and competitor. One can argue about all the titles Kim should have won, but the number of times she actually skated two clean programs back to back is pretty few. Also, Michelle is the better artist and has far more memorable programs.
     
  17. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with the part about presentation being very subjective.
    I for one found Michelle to be kind of distant but find Yu-Na, Chen and Sasha to be very engaging. I also love Slute's amazingly high energy levels and charisma entertaining.
    Presentation is all about subjectivity which is why this sort of poll is fun. It gets people to explain why they think certain things are the case.

    For me, I find Sasha's presentation particularly amazing because of the expression in her arms. Also, her amazing flexibility and extension combined with the way that these stretches came with the music (in contrast to Lipnitskaya who has arguably more flexibility but doesn't captivate me) always reeled me in. But this isn't really about Sasha (or Chen who I wish was still in), so back on topic.

    I always loved Yuna's use of her whole body (even though her spirals were fug) throughout her programs. I loved her step sequences and never felt like they were overly long even though they probably were just because every movement hit a beat and drew me in more. I know that people criticize her layback, but it was the best out of the three remaining because of its amazing speed and centering as well as her effortless transition between positions.
    Also, I felt like her jumps upped her presentation in that they were so effortless and fluid. They were always timed beautifully with the music and had amazing technique.
     
  18. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    I think people delude themselves into thinking they aren't being completely subjective about the technical mark as well.
     
  19. Alex Forrest

    Alex Forrest Banned Member

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    I agree. God, I remember way back in 1994 on the first internet skating discussion groups, I couldn't understand how Nancy was considered 'artistic'. Her Jane Fonda jazzercise programs were IMO unartistic, and it appeared she had no musicality, only a few set moves (Nancy spiral, and, er, what else?), a pretty face and a $15000 dress and instantly she was artistic. Baiul I could understand because her musicality and ability to interpret all types of genres was apparent. I also found Chen, Sato, and Chouinard much more appealing than Kerrigan and with better presentation.

    As for Kristi v Ito, it all came down to body form. Ito had those bowed legs that just could never compete in spirals, spins, etc from an aesthetic side. I did like may of Ito's programs and always felt like she was a "5.8" skater and if she really hit, a "5.9". Kristi had better lines and slightly more musicality so I'd have her a tenth higher on the second mark. In a way Ito/Yama was like Slute/Kwan.
     
  20. flipforsynchro

    flipforsynchro New Member

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    Kim's spiral isn't too bad seen not on TV. I saw it on a fan cam and it was passable. It just looks horrific on TV.
     
  21. gingercrush

    gingercrush New Member

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    ^ No it doesn't.
     
  22. Alex Forrest

    Alex Forrest Banned Member

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    I actually thought Kim's spirals looked better on tv. Many times tv wouldn't show her full body so you couldn't see how out of line it was and unpointed her foot was.
     
  23. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    The thing is that it still gets relatively good GOE's because it ticks off other goe marks
    At least now she doesn't have to do four ugly positions or whatever she had to do to get level four in the past. She can just do one.
     
  24. flipforsynchro

    flipforsynchro New Member

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    I guess for me, whenever I watched TV I'd always be thinking about her :yikes: spiral so when I saw the fancam, I was shocked that it wasn't as bad as I originally thought.
     
  25. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Kim's spirals are ugly. But I have watched a fan cam recording of her performance and from the audience's perspective, you could really understand why it was impressive - it was fast, the edge was steady and it covered so much ice. That's the +2 right there.
     
  26. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

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    KIM:
    Technical Ability: 10/10
    Artistry: 8/10
    Overall: 18/20

    ASADA:
    Technical Ability :9/10
    Artistry: 8.5/10
    Overall: 17.5/20

    KWAN:
    Technical Ability: 7/10
    Artistry: 10/10
    17/20


    I know people will agree and disagree, but this is how i see it
     
  27. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    That's actually not a bad assessment. My reasoning for giving Michelle a higher technical score wouldn't be based on the difficulty, but on the fact that she executed so many clean back-to-back performances and 6+ triple programs throughout her career. It's a rare thing that we don't really see anymore and she did it so consistently. That has to count for something...

    Based on that alone I'd bump her 7 to an 8 at least. Having the ability is very important but figure skating is all about execution and Michelle knew how to execute in the clutch 97% of of the time. That's why she was so successful. There were others who had better jumps and spins but they weren't capable of executing when the time came to lay it on the line.

    As you said, I know some will disagree but...:)
     
  28. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    ITA :cheer:
    "We are what we repeatedly do, therefore excellence is not an act, but a habit. " _Aristotle
     
  29. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

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    Seven triples programs are so rare in current field that I'm all over again re-appreciating Michelle's ability to have brought them more than enough.
     
  30. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Asada has more artistry than Kim? Certainly not with any of her programs the last 4-5 years, that is for sure. Also how does someone who doesnt do a triple loop in their programs get a perfect 10 in technical ability.